'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

[TurboRob]

\'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

I just picked up a '98 GTS two days ago from a guy in Chicago. Drove it home (300 miles) and no problems at all. Yesterday, drove it to work, and got on it a couple of times. Shifted at 5500, ran it up to about 100mph, that was it. Pulled back in the parking lot and smelled coolant. Popped the hood and the crankcase hose was blown off the airbox, coolant was dripping from it, and steam was coming out of it. The oil looked milky, and was overfull.

Today, we did a compression test (all plugs looked okay and equal in color). It was 160-165 on every cylinder. Next we put the pressure tester on the radiator, pumped it up, and you could slightly hear the hissing of air through the throttle blades when you opened them. But no coolant coming out anywhere noticeably. The radiator did not hold pressure.

Being a '98, isn't this odd? Is there any other way coolant could get into the oil pan...like timing cover, water neck housing, etc?? I'm just having a hard time believing that it's got a blown head gasket with that type of equal compression on every cylinder. And more importantly, if it IS a head gasket, what could have caused it?? I hate repairing something without knowing the original cause.

The car is stock with 29,000 miles on it. The side of the engine block is dated 7-14-98.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

I was HOPING to see an answer to your question...especially if it was something OTHER that the head gasket...SORRY about the problem...will be very interested in what you ultimately find IS the problem. Please keep us posted.

 

[genXgts]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

Hey Rob, I popped my timing chain cover gasket within 2 weeks of buying my 97 GTS. I think driving harder than the previous owner and more excited pressures may have to been to blame.

My leak was external and was streaming coolant onto the hoodpad, an easy diagnosis, and not too bad of a fix.

Maybe your leak is an internal passage to passage leak and hence the crossover?

Just a thought, frustrating to have things go awry right off the hop, ,let us know......

 

[TurboRob]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

Thanks for the input. I was hoping that someone else with a GenII had experienced the same thing (okay, maybe "hoping" isn't the right word).

Anybody else ever have a timing cover gasket leak "IN" to the engine??

In all my years with racing cars, blowing head gaskets, engines, etc., I've never blown a head gasket and still had even compression across the board. Not to mention the fact that I've practically always been able to pinpoint the cylinder simply by pulling the spark plugs. Not the case this time.

Anyone else? Anyone?? Beuler??? Anyone....?

 

[Viper Specialty]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

That sounds like a timing cover gasket to me, though it COULD be a head gasket seeing as you can hear it in the throttle bodies.

 

[TurboRob]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

Anybody have any tips on how to check to see if it's coming from the timing cover gasket without removing it? I don't really want to take it apart if it's okay.

I already have the intake off, but it was late and I stopped there. Should I now try pressurizing the radiator again and try to isolate where the air is coming through? It seems it will be easier to do with the intake off now. Even so, I don't see how I'll be able to know for sure it's coming through the timing cover.

This all sounds like a good opportunity to port the heads and throw in some bigger valves and new valve springs. Providing everything else is okay.

Thanks again!

 

[genXgts]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

Heck ya, considering your GTS is the slowest thing you own by far........and the modding begins,haha.

few hour repair, and the manual is way off in order of operations and what has to be pulled as a side note.

Good luck,

 

[BigCarrot]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

It get's kind of expensive when you pull the heads, so I'd avoid that unless you think it's necessary. Gasket's and head bolts are sky high on those things! I'd think it would be pretty hard to hear a leak through the throttle body unless it was pretty bad. On the same note, you compression wouldn't be that even if you had a blown head gasket. Are you sure you weren't just hearing the ocean in that intake? lol You know, like a seashell?!

 

[TurboRob]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

Definitely wasn't the ocean, lol. Though it looked like the ocean ran through my oil pan.

I spoke with Chuck Tator (super nice, helpful guy BTW) and ordered the complete gasket set. Since I probably won't have it until the end of the week, I thought maybe I'd go ahead and have the heads checked for trueness, do a valve job (2.00/1.60's I suppose), new springs, full port job, etc. I suppose it was just a matter of time until the Viper would have gotten mods anyway. After all, it doesn't seem right that my '03 Cobra is faster.

The only thing the Cobra, Viper and Z28 have in common, is that they're all silver.

 

[TurboRob]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

Today is the day...if nobody has any ideas about the timing cover, I'm going to yank the heads this afternoon.

Last chance....suggestions?

Thanks.

 

[BigCarrot]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

Blame the head gasket!!! (then go get them ported) It's not a hard job.

 

[Doug Supercharged Vipers]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

A compression tester is only a "basic" diagnostic tool and is good for determining quick or catastrophic engine problems. A more useful diagnostic tool is the "leakdown" tester. The leakdown tester applies a constant pressure for testing valve and ring sealing values and provides more realistic data for determining engine condition or problems.

Apparently, your cylinder compression "appears" to be acceptable across the board and your spark plugs don't indicate coolant entering the combustion chambers, but once again, I would recommend a leakdown test to provide a more accurate diagnosis.

From your explanation, your cooling system tester would not allow you to pressurize the cooling system to further determine your cooling system leak. Actually, data showing no pressure should make it easier to determine your problem. One test (trick of the trade if you will) is adapting a leakdown tester to your cooling system so it may apply a "continuos pressure" to your cooling system (careful not to exceed 17 psi). You can also utilize cigarette smoke to an empty cooling system to determine the leak.

I hope this helps and Good Luck!

Doug

 

[TurboRob]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

Well, got the heads off with no problems. As you all said, piece of cake. HOWEVER....I can find absolutely NOTHING wrong. The head gaskets are perfect. As are the heads and the engine block surfaces. Using a known straight edge, the heads appear flat.

The only thing that I did find odd, was the fact that ALL of the upper head bolts (the 7/16" head/torx bit) were practically finger tight. Since I wont have my Service Manual delivered until tomorrow, I don't know how tight they should have been. But to give you an idea, I was able to loosen several of them using a 6" long 1/4 drive extension ONLY. No ratchet on the end...just turned the extension by hand and they came loose.
It looks to me like if those weren't tight, that the coolant could pretty easily get right past the 3 layer gasket into the pushrod area, and down into the oil pan. Am I right? There were no signs of trailing coolant or anything on the gaskets or heads, etc. But then again, it only ran for a few minutes once we noticed the temp gauge climbing.

I didn't remove the timing cover yet...wanted to get some more input before I go any farther:

1.) Does anyone know the part number or exact size of valves I can use? I did a search and found 2.00 /1.60 and 2.02/1.60 to be the most common, but couldn't find stem size, valve length, locks needed, part #'s, etc.

2.) Also, which valve springs will I need, if any? Brand, part number...?

3.) As I said, I REALLY hate to put this back together without finding the actual problem. Any more ideas?

One last thing...the passenger side catalytic converter appeared to have been running much hotter than the drivers side. The heat shields around the header, and around the cat were both burned and broken up. The driver side was perfect. And I did notice the sulfur smell at the same time the engine started getting hot.

Thanks again, you guys are great.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

If your manual does not come on time, give me a fax number and a "shopping list" and I'll try to send you the needed specs for assembly.

 

[BigCarrot]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

Those small head bolts were pretty loose on mine too. Mine weren't that loose thogh.

 

[TurboRob]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks,

 

[TurboRob]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

Well, after receiving several direct emails from some of you yesterday, I decided to go ahead and remove the timing cover. Low and behold, it was blown inward. Leaking coolant directly into the oil pan.

Now I can't decide whether to go ahead and port the heads, or throw it back together first to get some baseline dyno runs. Decisions, decisions.....

Thanks to all of those who responded.

 

[Speedstyle]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

Nice stable of cars you got there. Any 1/4 mile videos for your other cars or pics?

 

[TurboRob]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

There's a couple vidoes of my Z28 on my website:
( http://www.LS1Motorsports.com )

Scroll down a little and just above the dyno graph picture, you'll see a Blue Hyperlink to the videos.

I've got the video of my Buick running a 9.95 also, but haven't had time to convert the video to media.

 

[Steve-Indy]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

Thanks for the update...why not put it back together, drive it, get a feel for it, enjoy it, dyno it, and go from there at anytime that you so decide ??

 

[TurboRob]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

Steve, that's pretty much what I had decided. It's killing me to finally own my dream car, and not be able to drive it. Either way, it will be Friday at the soonest before I get the gaskets from Dodge.

 

[phiebert]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

Rob, would you be able to give me any more details on the timing area leakage? I just got a call from a local club member who just got his 97/98 GTS and has exactly the same symptoms. I told him I would come over and do a leak down test for him but I'd like to know a little more about your problem. Anything you could have seen without taking it down to the head gaskets? Thanks.

 

[onerareviper]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

The side of the engine block is dated 7-14-98.

Where exactly is the dating on the engine block?

Thanks in advance, and sorry to hear about your problems.

Later

 

[Mike Adams]

Re: \'98 GTS - New Owner, Weird Problem, Head Gasket or Not?

Turbo rob I have run into 7 cars with the exact same thing every one was a timing cover gasket not a heade gasket. Thier is a casting flaw on the timing cover some leak coolant into the engine. Others leake oil externally. The oil will pool under the intake if timeing cover is leaking oil.

I am 90% sure you have a timing cover issue. IF a head gasket is gone you will hydro carbons in the antifreeze bottle. The can be checked by going an emission centre and have them do an analysis on the anti freeze bottle. They should stick the and just inside the bottle but not touch the antifreeze. A high HC reading would indicatate a head gasket.