Any Interest in a TWIN TURBO VIPER PACKAGE for under $ 20 Grand INSTALLED???

[Tom Welch]

Hello All,

We are looking for REALISTIC interest in the amount of Viper owners who would consider a INTERCOOLED TWIN TURBO package that generates approx 700 RWHP in daily drivable trim on any GEN 2(650 RWHP on GEN 1)Viper.

We have one car driving as a prototype, and another 2001 Viper that will be operational within the next two weeks.

We are looking to price this product at under $ 20,000.00 for the Stage 1 Twin Turbo system which will generate the horsepower numbers above without nitrous oxide injection.

This package price will include all parts, installation and round trip transportation to our facility for those Vipers that reside east of the Mississippi river.

I will be testing a more aggressive system which includes nitrous oxide/propane injection on my own Viper during the weeks to come and hope to offer a 1000 hp forced air induction package that is daily drivable at a reasonable price very soon.

Your feedback will help me determine if packages like these will open a new market segment for Viper owners.

Thanks for your feedback and comments..

Tom Http://btrviper.com

P.S. Please don't waste space on this topic by asking confidential questions..like who are my prototype customers. Those questions will fall upon deaf ears. Thanks for your understanding.

 

[Viperoctane]

thaaaats what I call excellent pricing !! Tom as usual you surprise us with your prices !! That package would be excellent !! Good Luck I ll be contacting you soon !!

 

[MichaelP]

WOW this is interesting from a well respected tuner.


You are saying under 20K.

Is it possible to do 18K for the stage 1 with the nitrous/propane injection with a Dyno slip of 1000 HP if we bring the car to you ourselves?

 

[Eddie N]

what kind of warranty comes with the package? is the 700 rwhp attainable on pump gas (91 octane specifically)?

what color underwear are you wearing? or is that confidential?

- eddie -

 

[Casey]

Very interested! The more under $20k, the more interested I will become!!

Interested in a warranty also?
Roll cage?

 

[SneakyPete]

Tom,

I Would be interested in Twin Turbo upgrade, Let me know if the NOS kit arrived for my install

Jay

 

[THEMASH]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MichaelP:

Is it possible to do 18K for the stage 1 with the nitrous/propane injection with a Dyno slip of 1000 HP if we bring the car to you ourselves?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I will be next in line in this 18K for 1000hp deal.

 

[MES]

I know Tom appreciates honest answers so here are some of my thoughts.

If you had a TT kit available for $20K installed one or two years ago it would be one heck of a deal. Even today it's still decent. But when I consider that for $6-7K I can have one of these DIY supercharger kit's that's coming out, which will put high 500's to low 600's to the wheels (my best est) that TT for $20K seems less appealing. Also DLM can supercharge a car and put down nearly the same HP as the proposed TT for near the same price, and DLM rep is #1 when it come to this type of work. That's some tough competition. Another concern would be the reliability. Turbos seem to be more finicky than superchargers and more apt to have problems. There is also that TT DIY kit someone else is working on, I don't the know pricing but it sounds interesting. Add it all up and it becomes hard to decide what to do. How much would I be willing to pay for a TT installed given the above, don't know maybe $10-12K (call me cheap)

but for $20K I would pass. My .02 keep the change

 

[Chuck B 98 GTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Welch:
P.S. Please don't waste space on this topic by asking confidential questions..like who are my prototype customers. Those questions will fall upon deaf ears. Thanks for your understanding.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Tom,
My lips are silent. Why not share with us the person driving the prototype so we can congratulate him and you. When you build such a car, you should brag about what you've done. I know I would!

Thanks in advance,
Chuck

 

[FRANK]

Well...this seems to be something new and in the making...and on the other hand Doug Levin's supercharged system is a few grand less and is proven to run like a ***** ape with the same horsepower numbers. Granted, Levin's price does not include shipping to and fro (I think) but with the cost of shipping, it is almost or same as the turbo installation. I know what Doug does to beef up the motor in addition to adding the supercharger and that impressed me. I don't know what other work to the motor that the turbo install will encompass but I sincerely doubt it will even come close to the cutom work that Doug performs. I also feel that there is a supercharger craze right now and the turbo kit may take a back seat at this particular time...just my 2 cents!

 

[Tom Welch]

Hello All,

Thanks for the responses..please keep em coming.

There are alot of exciting products that are being prototyped for Vipers from many different vendors. I look forward to purchasing some for my own car.

As for turbocharger vs. supercharger, well thats another one of those age old battles. I prefer the turbo. It robs no horsepower to make horsepower, no belts to break or maintain, they last virtually for ever, and to the contrary they are not finiky and do not require any special treatment. Think of how many different models of OEM vehicles are turbocharged instead of supercharged.

As for price structure. This kit will come in BELOW $ 20,000.00(should we elect to produce it)as installed. We are hoping for a price of approx. $ 17,800.00 as an Introductory Special for those customers who wish to deliver their own Vipers to us. BUT PLEASE DO NOT HOLD ME TO THIS!!

We will offer our Performance Guarantee and Performance Bond with our Twin Turbo Package. We expect to hold production times to LESS THAN ONE MONTH and will guarantee your completion date in writing. We feel that the performance numbers of this Stage 1 product will rival that of any tuner product in its price range.

As for warranty, there will be warranty from manufacturers of certain parts and we are working on some kind of warranty purchase program. Remember guys..these are RACING PARTS!

I will be testing Stage 2 and Stage 3 Twin Turbo Systems on my own Viper in the very near future. We expect to generate crazy amounts of horsepower and torque by adding our Nitrous Oxide and Propane Injection.

I hope to answer all of your questions here on this forum as time and testing proceed. I will have pics and dyno sheets to post soon.

Thanks,

Tom Http://btrviper.com

P.S. My underwear...what underwear. Heehee.

 

[John Moore]

Tom,
Where are you putting the turbos? Also, how are you managing the fuel, cooling, and lubrication? Are you using air or liquid intercooling and how much permanent alteration of the car is necessary? I'm just curious in general and don't need confidential or "top secret" details.

Thanks

 

[Chuck B 98 GTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Welch:

Think of how many different models of OEM vehicles are turbocharged instead of supercharged.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I give up Tom?
You must mean how many ricers with turbos?

Question is: How many OEM American made cars do you see with turbos that have more than 4.88 cubic inches???

Have a nice one,
Chuck B.

 

[Paolo Castellano]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck B 98 GTS:

Originally posted by Tom Welch:

Think of how many different models of OEM vehicles are turbocharged instead of supercharged.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I give up Tom?
You must mean how many ricers with turbos?

Question is: How many OEM American made cars do you see with turbos that have more than 4.88 cubic inches???

Have a nice one,
Chuck B.

Chuck, Tom did not say OEM American cars with big cube motors are turboed, he just said cars period! Whether it is a big or a small motor, supercharger or turbocharger, the concept is the same! I would have to say that, at this moment in time, there has definitely been much more development in the Viper sector along the supercharger route due to a guy named Doug Levin in Fla. You have one of his cars and I am sure you have extreme loyalty to his product which is probably the best one on the market due to the numbers of cars he has done and EVERYBODY is happy. Heffner also does a phenomenal job with superchargers, all of his customers are very happy as well! That other guy who has been doing turbos longer than anybody else and recently did a supercharger should have beaten everybody else to the punch. He did not because he is charging more than what people on this board, myself included, would consider as reasonable. ==&gt; What I am trying to say here is that I am glad that there is more than one person or entity pursuing development of twin turbos! Once these guys figure out how to overcome some of the different challenges associated turbocharging, THERE WILL BE NO CONTEST!=&gt; I guarantee that Twin Turbos will be the ONLY way to go. Chuck you need to read some books about turbocharging principles to gain some respect for how turbos work. You will see why turbos will always make more power than a similar blower compressor at the same level of boost. You will also learn how a properly sized turbo with the proper A/R will deliver the WHOLE 5psi, 7psi/etc...(With virtually no lag on 488 cu. in. at 5-10psi) instead of just the linear result of the blower being spun by the engine RPM's!
Chuck, right now the supercharger is more developed than the turbo application, so you would be correct and justified to feel the way you do at least for the moment.
I am not an expert on the volume of production OEM turbo car types, but it seems to me that there are so many turbo cars out there, large and small displacement, no matter, all of the turbo diesel trucks here and in Europe, most of the European car manufacturers do turbos. Mercedes is doing a lot of supercharging with their kompressor cars, but for years and years did turbo diesel cars and trucks. Here in the USA, we have just relied on older technology pushrod, big displacement engines which are great at making power and torque! They are very inefficient to say the least when you compare them to the "Ricer" engines or the Ferrari engines/etc... Now people are in the beginning stages of figuring out different ways to manage the fuel for the wasted spark, odd firing Viper V-10. Once they figure this out, we will all have access to being able to upgrade to any application that is developed by a multitude of individuals to most specifically suit our needs! What could be better than that? By the way, I have been speaking to John Moore and Robert Tennymann @ Axis, I am very impressed with every single conversation and correspondence I have had from Rob and every picture they have sent me of the development of their Twin Turbo Viper Project. I feel very comfortable that Rob knows every aspect of building/tuning turbo systems as well as being a master in the fabrication aspect. I like Rob because he is doing all of the fabrication/etc. himself. He is his own self contained entity which I like dealing with. I like this guy and hope I can do business with him eventually. I also like the idea that the whole Viper community is benefitting from all the different developments for forced induction Vipers! I think everybody needs to look at the time capsule in Viper history, realize where we are and be excited to see what all these great tuners are going to develop for us in the future! Paolo

 

[Tom Welch]

Hello All,

John, as for permenant alteration of your Viper, none is required for our Stage 1 Intercooled Twin Turbo. The Intercooler is Air Cooled.

As for Chuck B. you seem to have a problem with what we are doing here..offering a new product to the Viper community. I have made no negative comments with regards to your choice of power adders and regardless of what you think, turbochargers far outnumber superchargers in any and all OEM comparisons..including the AMERICAN MADE DIESEL PICKUP TRUCKS.

The Buick Turbo V-6 dominated as the fastest production car in 1987 and has only been foreshadowed in recent years by such cars as the Viper and C-5 Vette...a V-6 Turbocharged car.

I ask you to reveal your identity..be proud of who you really are. Bring your Viper down here and let us mount it on the dyno. I will do it for you for free. I know lots of Carolina Viper owners who for some reason have never seen you in person, so come on out from behined the keyboard and I will tell you who my prototype customers are. Im waiting..but im only going to live another 50 years or so.

Please, lets get back to the business of polling for a new product that will produce 700+ rwhp for well under 20 grand installed. When we decide to launch this product all facets of it will be made available on my website and of course on MY OWN VIPER along with several customer cars that are currently under consideration and will be available for viewing at upcoming events.

Should you wish to be considered for one of our first production run of TT packages please contact me in person at (407) 678-3100 or via the email system. Remember, we will offer a guaranteed quick turnaround(LESS THAN 30 DAYS) along with guaranteed performance from a reputable company. Where else will you find those two items along with an unbeatable price?

Thanks again,

Tom Http://btrviper.com

 

[slaughterj]

Sounds very interesting Tom, and I'm sure once it's available, you will have plenty of business for it. Wish I had the $!

As a side note, it seems like superchargers are becoming more popular from OEM, e.g., the current Nissan Xterra (has 210hp, and is advertised as supercharged, imagine if it wasn't...) and the upcoming Ford Cobra. Of course my perception could be distorted from advertising

 

[Chuck B 98 GTS]

Tom, Do you have an inferiority complex? You post on an open forum and can't accept any other opinion? What's your problem? Yes, I am proud of who I am. I'm a member of the North Carolina Bar with enough intelligence [personal attack removed].

Chuck B.
Oxford NC

 

[FastMatt]

Tom

do you have a New E-Mail adress? I have tryed E-Mailing you a few times...

let me know man, thanks

hope to talk to you soon

Matt

 

[pj]

Chuck - no need for personal attacks. You are each entitled to your opinion - but you dont need to insult each other in the process of presenting your arguements.

 

[Alternative]

Tom - thanks for providing Viper owners more choices. Keep us updated on your progress....

 

[J DAWG]

TOM, I WISH YOU THE BEST IN COMPLETING THIS TT PROJECT. AS A CONSUMER, WE ALL HAVE THE RIGHT TO CHOSE WHAT PRODUCT WILL WORK BEST FOR EACH OF US AND IT IS POSSIBLE TO DO THAT WITHOUT BEING NEGATIVE TOWARDS OTHER PRODUCTS THAT DO NOT INTEREST US. WE ALL HAVE THE ABILITY TO CHANGE THE CHANNEL IF WE DONT LIKE WHAT WE ARE WATCHING. PERSONALITIES DIFFER FROM ONE TO ANOTHER. KEEP IT POSITIVE. GOOD LUCK TO ALL! OH YEAH. IF IT IS MORE CHOICES AND MORE HORSEPOWER, I AM INTERESTED!

 

[Ken Larsen]

Oh no. the stuck caps key!!!! maybe it is a virus.

 

[jp]

Rock On Tom! Keep the Viper community updated!

/JP

 

[J DAWG]

THANKS FOR POINTING THAT OUT KEN. I WILL UNlock them immediately.

 

[MADDMAXS57]

Tom,

As an owner of a 99 GTS AND a 92 Dodge Stealth Twin-turbo (modified) I think you are definitely on the right track. Turbos offer a non-parasitic power addition vice a supercharged set up.

The only real consideration is detonation from a lean setup. Intercoolers add a small margin of safety but most set-ups benefit from a solid fuel management system (ie turbos matched by upgraded fuel pump and injectors) with a fuel computer on top of all of that. Guages like an accurate turbo and EGT (exhaust Gas Temp) along with a boost controller are needed as well.

Are you using a progressive turbo setup (ie small and large turbo) to reduce lag or just going with smaller matching turbos?
What is the maximum boost you are engineering the kit for, 15-20LBS?

I am glad to see a tuner with your proven reputation going after a more affordable turbo setup than other tuners like Hennessy. IMO there has been a tremendous amount of price gouging with Viper power enhancement systems just because it is a viper.

 

[TurboSnake]

When I see a turbo kit for under 10K for the Viper I will be impressed,there is not much there in the way of parts to command upwards of 20K,InconSystems had a Intercooled twin turbo kit for the Mustang and LS1 F-body that came in at less than 5K and that included:
Garrett ball bearing turbos.
80mm mass air sensor.
Intercooler.
Exhaust manifolds.
Injectors.
Fuel pump.
And it does not matter what car it is because a turbosystem is all a matter of packaging to fit a certain application,but the basic components are the same,so what makes a Viper system worth 15K more???
I would really like to know,seriously.

 

[John Moore]

Tom is about to find out or already has an impressive "heads up" on what he is up against. HMS e-mailed us and said to mass produce this system would be impressive indeed. The only thing similar about "turbos on a viper" are the words "turbos" or "wastegate" or "blow off valve" etc. Pop the hood on your car and see where you'd put the turbos. Remember you want to put something bigger than a couple of *** shooters in there and if you do, how do you get intake air, pressurized air, exhaust to and from and wastegate bypass through anything bigger than a soda straw to them? It's easy if you take out the A/C and steering shaft (yeah right). Fuel... you could write a book on how to open a can of worms there! There are significant and complex differences in our fuel system, ECU, and injectors that won't permit the use of many common solutions. Same for the lubrication and cooling aspects of the turbos. Talk is cheap... worth every penny you pay for it. Doing it is something else. I've seen over a dozen custom trucks, 'stangs, Chevys, bikes, show cars, Rice machines etc., all one offs come and go turbocharged and boosting away while the Viper gets each painstaking detail worked out. It definitely works but requires some very unique solutions and fabricated parts...lots of custom made parts. There must be a couple of dozen areas where the tolerances for the plumbing is an 1/8th inch between the block, the frame, body panels and other fixed obstacles. Fabrication like that ain't cheap! Lots of time and all hand done. Can't commission some overseas labor to crank out five thousand sets of intake tubes for $50 bucks a piece either... so get ready to pay if you want to play. I guess it's kinda like having a Viper in the first place.

 

[Tom Welch]

Hello Again,

First let me thank everyone for the continuing input.

My Viper experience started 3 years ago. Shortly after my Viper purchase the "need for MORE speed" overcame me and I started searching the planet for Viper upgrades. From my own experience in automobile and aircraft racing ventures, I felt reluctant to choose one of the high dollar tuner alternatives and decided to do my own mods.

3 years later, I feel that my efforts have in some small way, helped bring prices more in line with regards to Viper performance parts. I will continue to persue any and all avenues of providing a lower cost alternative to high performance for our collectable super cars.

With that said, rest assured that we are NOT using ANY of the previous tuner suppliers for our TT package. We recognize the challenges of turbocharging a Viper and are so far, up for the task. Believe me, after recently spending 5 hours of labor to change a supercharger belt on a Viper, anything can be done.

Thanks again for all of your thoughts,

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[TomMiriViper]

Tom,
Why is it you talk so highly about your tuning abilities and every time I've seen you race you've lost? I remember a Supercharged DLM car beat you at Moroso & Gainesville. I saw Ray White with a small shot of nitrous beat your BTR SuperSnake?.... Remember?... At Moroso it was at the last Chrysler Show?
I remember you had a "NINE-SECOND GUARANTEE PACKAGE," what ever happened to that? What about your "WHOOP ASP CLUB?"
What happened to your "LIFETIME GUARANTEE AXLES?"
What ever happened to your message board????

....Tom, I could go on and on.

Cheers,
Tom

 

[RedGTS]

TurboSnake, given the current state of Incon Systems, I don't think I would use their products as a baseline for any type of comparison. Although one could use their business model as an example of how its possible to totally screw up something that should and probably could be very profitable.

Ronnie