Mike H
Enthusiast
Thats the technique....
Heel-toe downshifting
- Thread starter Mike H
- Start date
Paolo Castellano
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MKoller:
Anyone know the proper technique for heel toe downshifting? I think i got the general idea but the actual technique is a mystery. Is it clutch in, take it out of gear, blip the trottle, and then clutch in again, etc. Im hopefully going to be heading to Skip Barber in the near future but I really cant wait that long to learn how to REALLY drive, plus Im dying for the practice. Whats everyone's technique for fast downshifting as well as fast upshifting for competitive drving? thanks for any help!!
.........Matt
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Matt, You could also adjust your pedals where you 1.Move your pedals down, disconnect the accelerator pedal from the mix, 2.Move the clutch and brake pedals back up to the point where there is enough of a differential from the brake pedal in the non-depressed position to the accelerator so that when the brake is fully depressed(under threshold braking of course) you need only to roll your outer two toes portion of your right foot to the gas, blip the throttle to perfectly match the R's for the downshift! Once you find the correct spot, you just reconnect the accelerator pedal back to the mix and you will always have the proper offset! Paolo
Anyone know the proper technique for heel toe downshifting? I think i got the general idea but the actual technique is a mystery. Is it clutch in, take it out of gear, blip the trottle, and then clutch in again, etc. Im hopefully going to be heading to Skip Barber in the near future but I really cant wait that long to learn how to REALLY drive, plus Im dying for the practice. Whats everyone's technique for fast downshifting as well as fast upshifting for competitive drving? thanks for any help!!
.........Matt
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Matt, You could also adjust your pedals where you 1.Move your pedals down, disconnect the accelerator pedal from the mix, 2.Move the clutch and brake pedals back up to the point where there is enough of a differential from the brake pedal in the non-depressed position to the accelerator so that when the brake is fully depressed(under threshold braking of course) you need only to roll your outer two toes portion of your right foot to the gas, blip the throttle to perfectly match the R's for the downshift! Once you find the correct spot, you just reconnect the accelerator pedal back to the mix and you will always have the proper offset! Paolo
K Adelberg
Enthusiast
There are a few schools of thought on this. Just remember you are trying to synchronize the engine and transmission. The critical part is "blipping" or reving the engine prior to letting the clutch out.
I do it whenever I drive the car, track or street.
I do it whenever I drive the car, track or street.
Janni
Enthusiast
Isn't it faster to:
Only one step on the clutch and not turning this into so many operations....???
<LI>Clutch in
<LI>Blip throttle
<LI>Shift
<LI>Clutch out
Only one step on the clutch and not turning this into so many operations....???
K Adelberg
Enthusiast
Matt, your technique is called double clutching. Never understood why some do this. Waste of time.
Janni, your approach is better, however if you "blip" the throttle before shifting, the engine rpm will start decreasing by the time you get the clutch out.
The critical part of heal toe shifting is only to synchronize the transmission and engine. So, "blip" just before letting the clutch out.
1. Clutch in
2. Select gear
3. Blip
4. Clutch out
You can even skip gears. There is not much benefit from engine braking. The brakes are the most powerful part of the car. If you need to be in 2nd gear exiting the corner and you are approaching it in 4th, there is no need to get the car into 3rd. Just go from 4th to 2nd, obviously when the car has slowed enough.
Janni, your approach is better, however if you "blip" the throttle before shifting, the engine rpm will start decreasing by the time you get the clutch out.
The critical part of heal toe shifting is only to synchronize the transmission and engine. So, "blip" just before letting the clutch out.
1. Clutch in
2. Select gear
3. Blip
4. Clutch out
You can even skip gears. There is not much benefit from engine braking. The brakes are the most powerful part of the car. If you need to be in 2nd gear exiting the corner and you are approaching it in 4th, there is no need to get the car into 3rd. Just go from 4th to 2nd, obviously when the car has slowed enough.
SoCal Craig
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K Adelberg:
Matt, your technique is called double clutching. Never understood why some do this. Waste of time.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ken, you're probably too young to remember when cars didn't have syncros
Double-clutching was a method to match speeds of gears when downshifting on older cars without syncros or ones with worn syncros. I agree on today's cars with better trannys and brakes that it just wastes time. However, I do find myself doing it on my Porsche to go 4th to 3rd when the tranny is cold (balky 3rd gear combined with B&M short shifter). No problems with Viper tranny.
BTW nice to see you and meet your wife on the cruise yesterday. But John and I are a bit dissapointed that she didn't pick our raffle tickets
Matt, your technique is called double clutching. Never understood why some do this. Waste of time.
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Ken, you're probably too young to remember when cars didn't have syncros
BTW nice to see you and meet your wife on the cruise yesterday. But John and I are a bit dissapointed that she didn't pick our raffle tickets
Steve 00RT/10
Enthusiast
The school I went to says:
clutch in
shift out of gear to neutral
blip in neutral
shift to new gear
clutch out
The viper pedals don't seem to be well suited to this without adjusting the go pedal out further.
When I started driving, no cars had synchros for 1st gear, therefore double clutching was mandatory if you wanted to get into 1st. from another gear with out coming to a stop. I guess that dates me a little
Steve
clutch in
shift out of gear to neutral
blip in neutral
shift to new gear
clutch out
The viper pedals don't seem to be well suited to this without adjusting the go pedal out further.
When I started driving, no cars had synchros for 1st gear, therefore double clutching was mandatory if you wanted to get into 1st. from another gear with out coming to a stop. I guess that dates me a little
Steve
SoCal Craig
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve 00RT/10:
The viper pedals don't seem to be well suited to this without adjusting the go pedal out further.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
hmmmm... my "go" pedal is a bit too high (maybe 1/4") for optimal H/T but that may be because of the APEX metal brake pedal being thinner than the stock rubber one. I talked to Dave Jenkins about shimming the brake pedal up a bit to compensate.
The viper pedals don't seem to be well suited to this without adjusting the go pedal out further.
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hmmmm... my "go" pedal is a bit too high (maybe 1/4") for optimal H/T but that may be because of the APEX metal brake pedal being thinner than the stock rubber one. I talked to Dave Jenkins about shimming the brake pedal up a bit to compensate.
Vic
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When I heard Hot Rod TV explain h/t, they also combined it with double-clutching. I couldn't understand why they insisted on putting it in neutral, and exercising the clutch pedal. I thought maybe I missed something somewhere. Now I see its for the synchros. I haven't found this necessary.
So now the trick seems to be how to feather the brake pedal just right with your heel, while you are pushing the throttle with your toe.
But if you are driving with ABS, then its not such a delicate juggle, 'cause you're mostly just mashing down ******* the brake, and not so concerned with how much pressure you apply?
So now the trick seems to be how to feather the brake pedal just right with your heel, while you are pushing the throttle with your toe.
But if you are driving with ABS, then its not such a delicate juggle, 'cause you're mostly just mashing down ******* the brake, and not so concerned with how much pressure you apply?
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Many people have problems with the peddle position. Maybe I just don't know any better, but it all works perfect for me. As I press the brake I can feel the side of my foot against the edge of the gas peddle and I just roll my ankle a little and slam my knee against the console to blip it.
As far as shift into neutral, blip, shift into gear, what they mean is to time your blip for the neutral position when you downshift from one gear to the next.
As far as shift into neutral, blip, shift into gear, what they mean is to time your blip for the neutral position when you downshift from one gear to the next.
SoCal Craig
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vic Rough:
So now the trick seems to be how to feather the brake pedal just right with your heel, while you are pushing the throttle with your toe. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Vic, you're a pretty big guy so I know your feet are probably wide enough to brake with the left side ball of your foot and roll your ankle to blip the throttle with the right side of your foot (see Chuck's post below). If not try rotating your knee a bit toward the steering wheel so you can blip the throttle with your heel. To do this you may need to raise the steering wheel one notch or so to clear your knee (I did this). Although I've heard of some doing it, braking with the heel would seem to give one no sense of "feel" for the threshold (just my useless opinion
).
BTW I found that the wider APEX brake pedal has made it easier to H&T. All I need to do is shim it up a bit higher (see my post above). Roe also has instructions for adjusting the gas pedal position if you're interested.
So now the trick seems to be how to feather the brake pedal just right with your heel, while you are pushing the throttle with your toe. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Vic, you're a pretty big guy so I know your feet are probably wide enough to brake with the left side ball of your foot and roll your ankle to blip the throttle with the right side of your foot (see Chuck's post below). If not try rotating your knee a bit toward the steering wheel so you can blip the throttle with your heel. To do this you may need to raise the steering wheel one notch or so to clear your knee (I did this). Although I've heard of some doing it, braking with the heel would seem to give one no sense of "feel" for the threshold (just my useless opinion
BTW I found that the wider APEX brake pedal has made it easier to H&T. All I need to do is shim it up a bit higher (see my post above). Roe also has instructions for adjusting the gas pedal position if you're interested.
Vic
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Wow! Did I have it wrong!
I always thought that braking with your heel had no feel. So you brake with your toe, and throttle with your heel...
Thanks! I'll try this method as soon as I can.
I always thought that braking with your heel had no feel. So you brake with your toe, and throttle with your heel...
Thanks! I'll try this method as soon as I can.
DanElam
Enthusiast
Some of the heel-toe technique was for older cars. Cars without synchros (like Formula Ford) pretty much require a double clutch to get synched. It's a pain and one reason why I don't run cars like that.
You don't actually brake with your heel today, although I have done it in older cars where you need to reach across long distances.
The idea is to put the left edge of your right foot on the brake and roll your foot over to throttle. You end up with the show usually hitting the throttle right around where the laces go into your shoe. You should be blipping while you are shifting into gear. Unless the sychro won't keep up (and you can outrun the Viper synchros) you want to shift as fast as you can while being smooth. There is no reason to **** the shifter. About half the NASCAR drivers don't even use the clutch: their blips are so precise that they can blip to the exact RPM needed.
There is a pretty good diagram on:
http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_heeltoe.lasso
BTW, trail braking is a different issue entirely. Any time you downshift you really ought to be using heel toe. You use trail braking when you need to brake in a corner where high entry speed benefits you where the exit is _decreasing_ radius. The idea is that you brake while going slow into the corner, get to the apex right on the edge, and then accelerate coming out. It can account for a few feet of difference on the track, but it is only useful for some of the corners - not all of them. For the other turns, brake in a straight line.
Trail braking can screw up a lot of otherwise good driving. Braking is the hardest performance concept to learn: we don't do it at 10/10 on the street and it takes a lot to learn how to do it. I have spent plenty of time in the gravel thanks to my mistakes.
The better approach for most people is to brake in the a straight line and then turn in. It teaches you faster since you learn the brakes limits and then the tires limits separately. Once you master those, it will be easier to combine them together. The Viper has big tires, medium weight, and relatively poor brakes. That means you stand on them for a long time and then have to release faster as the big tires kick in. It's certainly harder to learn to threshold brake than most cars out there.
If you are on the track, you initial time will be better spent learning the line and the limits of the tires (both in braking and in the turns.) Once you get so that you are running with the leaders, you can start to add-in trail-braking.
If you really want to have fun, start left foot braking. I can't bring myself to do it too often, but I know that left foot braking can provide even a little more speed in certain situations.
Have fun!
-Dan
You don't actually brake with your heel today, although I have done it in older cars where you need to reach across long distances.
The idea is to put the left edge of your right foot on the brake and roll your foot over to throttle. You end up with the show usually hitting the throttle right around where the laces go into your shoe. You should be blipping while you are shifting into gear. Unless the sychro won't keep up (and you can outrun the Viper synchros) you want to shift as fast as you can while being smooth. There is no reason to **** the shifter. About half the NASCAR drivers don't even use the clutch: their blips are so precise that they can blip to the exact RPM needed.
There is a pretty good diagram on:
http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_heeltoe.lasso
BTW, trail braking is a different issue entirely. Any time you downshift you really ought to be using heel toe. You use trail braking when you need to brake in a corner where high entry speed benefits you where the exit is _decreasing_ radius. The idea is that you brake while going slow into the corner, get to the apex right on the edge, and then accelerate coming out. It can account for a few feet of difference on the track, but it is only useful for some of the corners - not all of them. For the other turns, brake in a straight line.
Trail braking can screw up a lot of otherwise good driving. Braking is the hardest performance concept to learn: we don't do it at 10/10 on the street and it takes a lot to learn how to do it. I have spent plenty of time in the gravel thanks to my mistakes.
The better approach for most people is to brake in the a straight line and then turn in. It teaches you faster since you learn the brakes limits and then the tires limits separately. Once you master those, it will be easier to combine them together. The Viper has big tires, medium weight, and relatively poor brakes. That means you stand on them for a long time and then have to release faster as the big tires kick in. It's certainly harder to learn to threshold brake than most cars out there.
If you are on the track, you initial time will be better spent learning the line and the limits of the tires (both in braking and in the turns.) Once you get so that you are running with the leaders, you can start to add-in trail-braking.
If you really want to have fun, start left foot braking. I can't bring myself to do it too often, but I know that left foot braking can provide even a little more speed in certain situations.
Have fun!
-Dan
GTS Dean
Enthusiast
Double-clutch downshifting is for Porsche 911s. The shifters are so intensely crappy that you almost can't do a single blip downshift unless you blip to redline.
Tom and Vipers
Enthusiast
I guess there are 2 methods depending whether you have synchronizers.
In the olden days, low bear was non-synchronized, so if you wanted to down shift to low from 2nd, here is what you did:
Clutch in
Shift from 2nd to N
Clutch out
Rev engine to match 1st*
Clutch in
Shift from N to 2nd
Clutch out
*this step speeds up the clutch and transmission gears so that if done perfectly, you could shift into 2nd w/o using the clutch.
If you did it right you won't grind going into 1st and you won't lay tire when you let the clutch out in 1st.
Frankly, the blipping to match rpm during a down shift incorporates a single clutch application so I don't think the term DOUBLE CLUTCHING applies for synchromeshed transmissions.
DCing was something you had to do in big trucks.
Tom
PS. How many people have had to drive home with a broken clutch linkage or a clutch disk spring jammed in the pressure plate? You learn to shift w/o the clutch pretty fast!
In the olden days, low bear was non-synchronized, so if you wanted to down shift to low from 2nd, here is what you did:
Clutch in
Shift from 2nd to N
Clutch out
Rev engine to match 1st*
Clutch in
Shift from N to 2nd
Clutch out
*this step speeds up the clutch and transmission gears so that if done perfectly, you could shift into 2nd w/o using the clutch.
If you did it right you won't grind going into 1st and you won't lay tire when you let the clutch out in 1st.
Frankly, the blipping to match rpm during a down shift incorporates a single clutch application so I don't think the term DOUBLE CLUTCHING applies for synchromeshed transmissions.
DCing was something you had to do in big trucks.
Tom
PS. How many people have had to drive home with a broken clutch linkage or a clutch disk spring jammed in the pressure plate? You learn to shift w/o the clutch pretty fast!
GTS Bruce
Enthusiast
Most pro drivers nowadays begin braking left foot and some only brake with the left foot.(C.A.R.T.,IRL,F1 etc)All stock car drivers turn in and then brake(left foot) even on road courses.You can brake later with your left foot and transition to the right foot for heel toe downshifting.Finally finishing up braking with the left foot and going to power with the right foot.Quicker?Yep.A lot of work?yep.Necessary for a weekend warrior.Nope.Use it on the street?Sometimes for the extra challenge and fun of it.I find my right foot to be more sensitive to brake feel and my left foot to be more aggresive.Old dog learning new tricks. Bruce
Vic
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DanElam:
If you really want to have fun, start left foot braking.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is it ok to chew gum while I'm braking with my left foot?
If you really want to have fun, start left foot braking.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is it ok to chew gum while I'm braking with my left foot?
Tom and Vipers
Enthusiast
Actually, braking with left foot on street is much safer because you don't have the delay associated with switching pedals when faced with an emergency!
Also, beware of heel and toe w/Viper pedals.
If you break your gas pedal (little piece of plastic), you have to replace the entire pedal assembly.
If under warranty, not a problem, if you have to pay for it, it will cost you around $1000 new.
Insane?
You bet!
Also, beware of heel and toe w/Viper pedals.
If you break your gas pedal (little piece of plastic), you have to replace the entire pedal assembly.
If under warranty, not a problem, if you have to pay for it, it will cost you around $1000 new.
Insane?
You bet!
SoCal Craig
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
PS. How many people have had to drive home with a broken clutch linkage or a clutch disk spring jammed in the pressure plate? You learn to shift w/o the clutch pretty fast!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I did that once a long time ago in my Fiat X1/9. The clutch slave cylinder failed at work. I was able to drive home pretty easy once underway. The only problem was comming to a stop. I had to turn off the car and start it in 1st gear... probably not too good for the starter... but heck it's just a Fiat
PS. How many people have had to drive home with a broken clutch linkage or a clutch disk spring jammed in the pressure plate? You learn to shift w/o the clutch pretty fast!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I did that once a long time ago in my Fiat X1/9. The clutch slave cylinder failed at work. I was able to drive home pretty easy once underway. The only problem was comming to a stop. I had to turn off the car and start it in 1st gear... probably not too good for the starter... but heck it's just a Fiat
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
Double clutching is NOT a waste on modern transmissions. You don't NEED to do it but it will smooth out the shifts a LOT. Try downshifting from 4th to 3rd... unless you match the RPM's *perfectly* there will be a slight ****. Even if you do match the RPM's, the internals of the transmission are not moving at the higher RPM, only the engine is.
By releasing the clutch while you're in neutral, the tranny guts get up to speed and then you blip the throttle again when you put it in gear.
Try it - if you get it right the shift will be buttery smooth with no "****" when you release the clutch.
By releasing the clutch while you're in neutral, the tranny guts get up to speed and then you blip the throttle again when you put it in gear.
Try it - if you get it right the shift will be buttery smooth with no "****" when you release the clutch.
Tom and Vipers
Enthusiast
What I REALLY want to know is how people drive high horsepower street cars.
Until I had the Viper, I could powershift (gas pedal kept on floor) 1-2 and merely lay some tire.
In the Viper, if I were to PS 1-2, I'd fry the tires and hit the rev limiter.
So I guess you PS as usual EXCEPT you let off the gas for a split second.
If you do that right, when the clutch comes out, the engine will be fairly matched and hopefully not below speed which will reverse load everything for a split second.
But I have no desire to drag race a modern car because I don't want to face the breakage.
I have one car that I will drag race and it took years to get right.
Tom
Until I had the Viper, I could powershift (gas pedal kept on floor) 1-2 and merely lay some tire.
In the Viper, if I were to PS 1-2, I'd fry the tires and hit the rev limiter.
So I guess you PS as usual EXCEPT you let off the gas for a split second.
If you do that right, when the clutch comes out, the engine will be fairly matched and hopefully not below speed which will reverse load everything for a split second.
But I have no desire to drag race a modern car because I don't want to face the breakage.
I have one car that I will drag race and it took years to get right.
Tom
Mike Brunton
Enthusiast
Tom, the best times in a Viper come from letting off *slightly* from the gas. If you don't let off, you'll hit the limiter but more importantly the whole driveline torques to the side and it's VERY easy to miss the gear you're looking for.
For good times in a Viper, you gotta work that shifter. Get it to the point where you're snapping the shifts off in 1/4 second and you'll be basking in the 11's in no time.
For good times in a Viper, you gotta work that shifter. Get it to the point where you're snapping the shifts off in 1/4 second and you'll be basking in the 11's in no time.
GTS Dean
Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SoCal Craig:
Vic, you're a pretty big guy so I know your feet are probably wide enough to brake with the left side ball of your foot and roll your ankle to blip the throttle with the right side of your foot (see Chuck's post below). If not try rotating your knee a bit toward the steering wheel so you can blip the throttle with your heel. To do this you may need to raise the steering wheel one notch or so to clear your knee (I did this). Although I've heard of some doing it, braking with the heel would seem to give one no sense of "feel" for the threshold (just my useless opinion
).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Vic,
This is the technique taught by Bob Bondurant's school. Right foot up high on the brake pedal, rotate knee inward and stab the gas pedal with the heel of your foot. When you practice a bit, you can maintain good pedal modulation on the brake and not have any problem with the gas. I tried rocking my ankle with the shoe spanning the gas and brake once at the school and got my foot stuck between them. Almost stuffed the mustang in the berm at the far end of the front straight. OK, so I'm convinced.
Vic, you're a pretty big guy so I know your feet are probably wide enough to brake with the left side ball of your foot and roll your ankle to blip the throttle with the right side of your foot (see Chuck's post below). If not try rotating your knee a bit toward the steering wheel so you can blip the throttle with your heel. To do this you may need to raise the steering wheel one notch or so to clear your knee (I did this). Although I've heard of some doing it, braking with the heel would seem to give one no sense of "feel" for the threshold (just my useless opinion
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Vic,
This is the technique taught by Bob Bondurant's school. Right foot up high on the brake pedal, rotate knee inward and stab the gas pedal with the heel of your foot. When you practice a bit, you can maintain good pedal modulation on the brake and not have any problem with the gas. I tried rocking my ankle with the shoe spanning the gas and brake once at the school and got my foot stuck between them. Almost stuffed the mustang in the berm at the far end of the front straight. OK, so I'm convinced.
Vic
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Hmmm, cool, I'll try that. So far I have been rolling my foot over, not at an angle, but just pointing straight forward, and tilting to the right, onto the gas pedal. It works well for me, in wide street sneakers. If I was wearing Simpsons, I don't think it would work.
Later I'll get some better pedals, and racing shoes.
Thanks for the tip!
Later I'll get some better pedals, and racing shoes.
Thanks for the tip!
