LC-1 Wideband Problem...

[ViperTony]

First, thanks to Daniel for posting the illustrated how to instructions for installing and wiring an LC-1 wideband setup. I followed his directions and was able to get it installed. However, getting it working seems to be another challenge.

After following Innovate's detailed setup instructions and starting my car the wideband worked well for the first 10 seconds on engine warmup. For the first 10 seconds or so the AF gauge is showing a rising A/F ratio starting around 10, 11 and gets to about 12 before it begins to jump sporadically between 8 and 20 then finally lands on 50 and the LC-1 throws an error code. An A/F of 50 for the Innovate product means the O2 sensor is bad. I'm also using Dyno Tune's LED gauge and logging via Log Works. The LC-1 is showing an Error Code 8 which is a "Sensor Timing Error". Temperature at the **** is not an issue as it does not exceed 900 degrees farenheit.

After recalibrating the O2 using the fresh air and heater recalibration procedures the behavior persists. It's interesting to note that before the engine is started and with the ignition in the 'On' position, I can log the LC-1 go through its warmup phase and at about 64% warmup gauge starts to jumps between 8 and 20 sporadically. Happens with or without the engine running.

So, I went out and got another O2 sensor and I'm having the same issue. I checked and double-checked my wiring, voltage source, etc. and no luck. Before I go out and get yet another O2 sensor has anyone experienced this problem with their LC-1? I'll call Innovate on Monday for some tech help but was hoping someone can give me some direction on troubleshooting this.

Thanks,
- Tony

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Tony, bummer...

1. That code is an absolutely classic symptom for the sensor overheating...so I gotta ask...when in the pipe did you place the ****?

From Innovates own manual:

Q: After testing the unit out at idle for ~10-15 minutes I got a sensor timing error. I turned off the LM-1 and cycled it back on and it's been fine since. Is this anything to worry about? What causes this error?

A: The Bosch sensor runs optimally at 750-800 deg C Sensor Temp. If the sensor head gets heated by the exhaust to that temperature or above there is no more margin for the heater controller and it runs essentially 'open loop', shutting the heater off. That's why a cooler location is better. Also, (and more importantly) the Bosch sensor has a parasitic resistance in the common path between the pump-cell and the measurement cell. This resistance has a positive temperature coefficient (resistance increases with temp) and is dependent on the sensor's housing temperature. Because it is buried inside the sensor it cannot be directly measured. When measuring the sense-cell impedance or pump-cell impedance it is essentially in series with either. Both, sense-cell and pump-cell impedance, have a negative temperature coefficient. Because the heater control of the Bosch unit depends on either the sense-cell or pump-cell impedance, this parasitic resistance can disrupt the temperature control by essentially compensating the negative coeff. of either when the housing gets too hot. This means that no temperature control is possible and the resultant values would be all over the map. Both the LM-1 and LC-1 can detect that condition and throws a sensor timing error because the sensor timing with our circuit is one of the variables that is dependent on the sensor housing temp.

The net of all this is that the sensor should be installed as close to the cat as possible, and (in non-cat applications) at least 12" away from the end of the exhaust.

Or this one....

Q: When do I need to make or install a heat sink?
A: The Bosch LSU4.2 wide-band O2 sensor (shipped as part of the LM-1 kit) is rated to operate at an exhaust gas temperature of < 1300 degrees (F), and a sensor housing temperature of < 900 degrees (measured at the ****) for maximum accuracy and control. When either of these operating temperature ranges is exceeded, the sensor can no longer be accurately controlled. Further, operating at or over these temperatures for any length of time can significantly reduce the lifetime of the sensor. The LM-1 is designed to display an error message under these conditions (currently 08- Sensor Timing Error) rather than provide inaccurate readings. For some turbo vehicles, rotary engines, and other setups, this error message can be encountered with annoying frequency.


My guess is you already knew that...I'd call Innovate.....

 

[grcforce327]

Your gauge should read approx. 20 key on engine off.On cold startup,the gauge reading stays the same for 5 to 10+ seconds(warmup),and then starts reading a/f.Mine has NEVER read 10,11,or 12 at idle and worked it's way up.Make sure wiring is correct and grounds are separate as per instructions.

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[ViperTony]

Thanks Daniel. I installed it exactly in the mid-pipe location at the 10 o'clock position similiar to the location you described in your guide. I checked the thermal reading at the **** plug when the engine was fully warmed up and it never got beyond 218 degrees. I don't believe its a heat issue.

The strange thing is that this occurs even when the engine is not running. When the sensor is warming up (engine off) at about 62.4% warmup the LC-1 shows a 20.9 O2% reading on the digital gauge (logworks). Then the LC-1 throws a code 50 on the Dyno Tune gauge and Error 8. The sensor never completes its warmup phase.

In fact, this behavior occurs with a brand new sensor in a free air configuration. I did some research on Innovate's forums last night and I'm not alone. I checked for grounding issues as suggested by Innovate. In fact, they instructed me to ground ALL of the ground wires together, except for the heater ground, as seperating the grounds LC-1 grounds from the push-button ground and black LC-1 wire can cause the controller to constantly go into free air configuration mode...OK. So I tried combining them, no luck. After working through all of the possible grounding tests they gave me, we determined it was the controller. It's stuck in a free-air calibration cycle where it will constantly call for free-air config. Even with the sensor disconnected the controller throws an error code 2 and displays 50 and we can't break out of it.

I have a bad LC-1 controller and it needs to be returned for service/replacement. Should have it or a new one back on Wed. I'll let you know how it turns out.

Thanks - Tony

Tony, bummer...

1. That code is an absolutely classic symptom for the sensor overheating...so I gotta ask...when in the pipe did you place the ****?

From Innovates own manual:

Q: After testing the unit out at idle for ~10-15 minutes I got a sensor timing error. I turned off the LM-1 and cycled it back on and it's been fine since. Is this anything to worry about? What causes this error?

A: The Bosch sensor runs optimally at 750-800 deg C Sensor Temp. If the sensor head gets heated by the exhaust to that temperature or above there is no more margin for the heater controller and it runs essentially 'open loop', shutting the heater off. That's why a cooler location is better. Also, (and more importantly) the Bosch sensor has a parasitic resistance in the common path between the pump-cell and the measurement cell. This resistance has a positive temperature coefficient (resistance increases with temp) and is dependent on the sensor's housing temperature. Because it is buried inside the sensor it cannot be directly measured. When measuring the sense-cell impedance or pump-cell impedance it is essentially in series with either. Both, sense-cell and pump-cell impedance, have a negative temperature coefficient. Because the heater control of the Bosch unit depends on either the sense-cell or pump-cell impedance, this parasitic resistance can disrupt the temperature control by essentially compensating the negative coeff. of either when the housing gets too hot. This means that no temperature control is possible and the resultant values would be all over the map. Both the LM-1 and LC-1 can detect that condition and throws a sensor timing error because the sensor timing with our circuit is one of the variables that is dependent on the sensor housing temp.

The net of all this is that the sensor should be installed as close to the cat as possible, and (in non-cat applications) at least 12" away from the end of the exhaust.

Or this one....

Q: When do I need to make or install a heat sink?
A: The Bosch LSU4.2 wide-band O2 sensor (shipped as part of the LM-1 kit) is rated to operate at an exhaust gas temperature of < 1300 degrees (F), and a sensor housing temperature of < 900 degrees (measured at the ****) for maximum accuracy and control. When either of these operating temperature ranges is exceeded, the sensor can no longer be accurately controlled. Further, operating at or over these temperatures for any length of time can significantly reduce the lifetime of the sensor. The LM-1 is designed to display an error message under these conditions (currently 08- Sensor Timing Error) rather than provide inaccurate readings. For some turbo vehicles, rotary engines, and other setups, this error message can be encountered with annoying frequency.


My guess is you already knew that...I'd call Innovate.....

 

[ViperTony]

Thanks. Interestingly, Innovate recommends combining all of the grounds together (except for the heater ground). See my response to DY. It turns out that my controller went ****** and needs to be replaced. By the way, the O2 sensors that come with the LC-1 kit are Bosch sensors, part number 17014. I found them at my local NAPA store for $55.00. FYI.

Your gauge should read approx. 20 key on engine off.On cold startup,the gauge reading stays the same for 5 to 10+ seconds(warmup),and then starts reading a/f.Mine has NEVER read 10,11,or 12 at idle and worked it's way up.Make sure wiring is correct and grounds are separate as per instructions.

You must be registered for see images

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Good info all, lets hope the fix works..

 

[grcforce327]

Thanks. Interestingly, Innovate recommends combining all of the grounds together (except for the heater ground). See my response to DY. It turns out that my controller went ****** and needs to be replaced. By the way, the O2 sensors that come with the LC-1 kit are Bosch sensors, part number 17014. I found them at my local NAPA store for $55.00. FYI.

As I state "as per instruction",heater grounds separate.After you double checked the wiring,I could have sent you an LC-1 with sensor to try "for free", as I had a bad one too!Oh well!

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

For the record, all my grounds are together (as they told me the same thing) with the exception of the heater as well. Worked ok for me, that is not the problem here.

 

[ViperTony]

As I state "as per instruction",heater grounds separate.After you double checked the wiring,I could have sent you an LC-1 with sensor to try "for free", as I had a bad one too!Oh well!

Thanks for the offer. I just shipped mine back to them for service. There seems to be a lot of grounding problems on various cars with these controllers. I don't think its the controller itself but the nuances of grounding in general. I combed through Innovates forums and there are many posts where these controllers needed to be replaced or repaired in the last 5-6 months. Seems that Innovate is doing a good job following through on replacements and service though. At least I'm not alone.

 

[ViperTony]

Update: I received a new controller from Innovate today and the problem is solved, all is working well. The new controller I received doesn't have a GREEN wire. After contacting Innovate about the missing GREEN wire, they told me that the latest version of the controller no longer requires a GREEN wire since they determined that having both a GREEN and WHITE wire proved to be redundant so they removed the GREEN wire. Also, they will not repair controllers because breaking the seal of the controller will make then non-waterprood. BUT, they will REPLACE them within the warranty period. I have to say their service and support has been great so far.

FYI. - Tony

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Tony, your on your way, keep us informed of how you make out with the LC-1 to VEC work.

 

[ViperTony]

Tony, your on your way, keep us informed of how you make out with the LC-1 to VEC work.

I got it all working today and went out for a few runs. I'm measuring 900hp and 1000tq when logging on the Vec3 today...with my n.a RT/10. I have some fine-tuning to do in the software . But this is really cool stuff. Had I known back in high school that I would be owning a Viper and be getting into tuning I would've paid more attention in my science & math classes.

I hooked up my LC-1 to Analog #2 IN on the Vec3. I'm reading voltages from the LC-1 and I need to translate those into A/F ratios. I think I know how to do it and will try later. Tomorrow I will go for a few more runs and try to get some decents logs done. I tried to get a run in today but the only 'space' I have to do a pull around here is on Rt. 15. I tried doing that during rush-hour today and there just wasn't enough room. I was having so much fun at WOT that before I knew it I found myself in Wilton!

I'm using Roe's Performance card (smooth tues, filters, headers, cat-back, etc) and I have a stock card as well. My car is idling more smoothly now and most of my decel popping is gone. Feels much stronger in the mid-range than stock. In fact, I have no decel popping at all in 3rd gear which is amazing. I just need to figure out how the performance card made that happen. I'm learning. I will be analyzing this program quite a bit over the next few days. Not ready to tune but learning a great deal about my Viper.

I'm learning a lot from this and its a lot of fun...being an IT guy I just can't stay away from this stuff. Thanks for the illustrated help and answering my questions D.Y. You're making it so that a caveman like me can do it.

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

There are two components to setting up the VEC to read the wide band properly, the first is int the INNOVATE software itself and the second is in the VEC software. My guess is that you know that already and that you have it under control.

1. I covered the VEC anlog set up for a wide band in the tuning section on set-ups. It's a video so is really easy to understand.

2. I havent covered the Innovate "Logworks" set-up yet, let me know if you need me too.

Yes, you need to do both. Next time your in Wilton lets get together.... there are actually a couple of Viper nuts here and you will only have to post bail on one of them.

Welcome to the world of perfect tuning. Every stock Viper runs better here....

 

[ViperTony]

Daniel,

I found the correct voltage values for the LC-1 to Vec3 in a post which are 0 Volts = 10 and 5 Volts = 18. My logs now show the correct A/F ratio. I'm still having two issues which I think will require a call to Roe today:

(1.) IAT: The IAT reading is showing a constant 145.5 degrees no matter what the condition is. This morning, with a cold engine, it read 145.5 and on Friday in 100 degree weather it read 145.5. After taking thermal readings in and around the airbox there's no indication that ambient temperature is causing this reading to be so high.

(2.) Horsepower/Torque Readings: Seem way off and not even reasonably close. During a pull, I'll get readings from 40 - 261HP and 500 - 1400 torque. Other times I'll get 1000+ horsepower. I double-checked my connections and they seem OK. Sometimes both power and torque numbers will read zero during the entire pull and other times I'll get 900hp readings at 2000 RPM. I checked my box and log settings and they seem fine. Speed seems to right on when logging.

I'll give Roe a call today and see if I missed something.

Thanks,
- Tony

 

[DAMN YANKEE]

Right move, cant wait to here the results.

 

[ViperRichRT10]

My LC-1 read a constant reading of "20" the other day when I was driving in 100+ degree weather here in Hotlanta. Anyone know what that means? Is that some sort of error code when it gets too hot?

Thanks,

Rich

 

[KenH]

When you first cold start the car, the AIT should always read the ambient air temp. Sounds like you may have a wiring problem.

On the HP/TQ, make sure that you select the gear that you do the pull in. I don't think you can get an accurate reading in 1st and perhaps 2nd if you get wheel spin. I prefer 3rd.

Also, if you have different rear gears or tire size, you need to change the gearing setting in the software. I could get mine fairly close by fiddling with it (580's with VEC2 and 570's on dyno for horsepower, torque was about 50ft/lb higher with the VEC). I mainly found it useful for finding dips in the curves that might indicate a need for more timing at those points, etc.

 

[ViperTony]

To close the thread on this particular topic, the issue with the IAT temperature was with the IAT sensor wiring, specifically a short. It seems that when the IAT sensor has an issue, the output reads 145.5. After fixing the short, all is well.

As for HP/TQ, the Vec3 cannot accurately calculate these numbers. You will not see numbers as you would on a Dyno. Members that have the Vec3 and Roe read 250 peak HP on their pulls...others more some less. My HP/TQ numbers are off as much as 40% compared to my dyno numbers. At best its good for relative measurements in case you want to see if that airbox, plug change, rocker upgrade, etc. did anything for you. Now that I know the delta between my Vec3 HP/TQ and Dyno numbers I'm good. Where's Damn Yankee???