Modifying Stock Throttle Bodies

[FRANK]

Has anyone done this? What was done and any dyno figures??

 

[SRTim]

Frank,

I recently had David Wilks perform his Throttle Body modifications to my TB's from my 98 GTS. I got them back today (overnight mail, as promised). His craftsmanship is beautiful. I can almost use the inside of the TB as a mirror. He removed the inlet restrictor and polished it to a consistent bore throughout. The work is high quality, and the price is unbeatable!! ($125) He also contacted me by phone to tell me when it was finished and asked if I had any questions. I highly reccomend this mod to anyone's Viper.....the price and craftsmanship are unbeatable!

I don't have any dyno figures...I live in Pittsburgh, and we have snow now...the car is away for the winter.

(PIC BELOW)

Tim

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[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

I know of one engine that makes 630HP (on an engine dyno) at the crank with stock throttle bodies. A larger T. body was installed and the result was a 1 HP gain. If you want to know the size of the larger T.Body ask Dan Cragin. The So. CA club saw the engine at Caldwell with the CDI headers (both on display).

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[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

I have no idea why the larger T.Bodies made only 1 HP gain. Nor do I care speculate. I buy based on dyno numbers not feel, fyi. Only reporting facts as I get them. I hate to see people buy something that may not provide the desired and expected results. Bigger is not always better.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

We agree about the average numbers 100% Actually the guide line for this engine is not peak HP or Torque but Max average. ie shortest time delta for the engine on the dyno between 3,000 and 5,500 RPM. You must be new to the board as I have been a supporter of Edelbrock headers as they make a nice improvement in average HP and Torque but not much gain in peak HP. And they are smog legal in 50 States. Regarding K.S. comment "Your last statement is very argumentative from a Woman's point of view. But, we are in-fact talking about the Average Numbers and not specifics." I discuss these issues based on facts not emotions. Everyone has an opinion, and my opinion on HP and Torque is a broad power band will reduce my need for changing gears during cornering which for me is important to maintain balance. And provides better street use. However I feel that Max. HP will serve a good driver much better, then me, as a good driver can maintain better balance while changing gears allowing them to keep the engine at its optimum RPM range.

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[Mike Brunton]

KS,

What's your deal? You're new to the board, and you've already criticized JonB and now you're being testy with Fred? Gimme a break. This is a site owned and paid for by the VCA - don't forget that.

Having said that, Fred never said larger throttle bodies DON'T enhance driveability. He was chiming in with a very useful metric on just what they DO on a dyno. Fact is they produce 1hp in his test - I don't see where it was said that larger HP numbers make a better car.

If someone is buying a performance part, he or she expects it to produce something. You can't apply any kind of metric to a subjective thing like - "my car feels smoother now", and you certainly can't compare an LS1 to a Viper V10 - TOTALLY different animals.

Fred's point still stands - regardless of whether the intake is the restriction or not, buying polished throttle bodies doesn't do anything on the dyno.

I suggest, KS, that you spend a little more time learning the Viper community and who knows what before you come out with these sorts of posts.

 

[FRANK]

Well for one...I have cleaned dozens of throttle bodies out - no Vipers...but other cars. Many develop a carbon ridge where the butterflies sit in the bore. After wiping the ridge clean with a rag soaked in 2+2 and cleaning up the bore, you'd be surprised how much of a difference in throttle response there is. Very noticeable! Imagine what deburring the restrictor and polishing the bore would do.

Mike, you make a good point about people wanting to know what to achieve as far as spending money on parts. But in the same light, if someone decides to be subjective and say they notice a difference in smoothness/throttle response, so be it. Just cleaning out a throttle body makes a difference that is noticeable - I don't care if it is a Viper of a Vette. A clean or polished throttle body will produce a smmother and snappier throttle, regardless of what vehicle it is on. Some shops will clean out a throttle body and the customer thinks you dyno tuned the motor! What a difference they say. Best part is that it takes less than 5 minutes and it nets you $60!

As far as criticizing people on this board...anyone has a right to. I don't care who funds this board. If people are going to offer advice and or suggestions, you are leaving yourself open to cross examination. Since I do all my own work and have been doing so for over 15 years, I can criticize/question people's advice and practices. Also, I would be willing to bet that 70% of the people on this board have done nothing but wash their Viper and maybe rotated the tires. I can read through the lines and know a benchbuilder when I hear/see one. Good day....

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Boy, you guys hit KS pretty hard. I read his post several times and failed to see reason to jump all over it. He was just pointing out his own opinion. It didn't sound like he was ripping into anyone. Did any of you catch the joking comment about a woman's point of view? "Bigger is not always better."

Merry Christmas.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Frank,

I've checked out my throttle bodies and never seen a ridge, and I've got a lot of experience with small block chevy's. I defer to your experience and I agree that a clean, smooth TB could make for a more responsive throttle.

My problem with KS's post, is that she said (and I quote) "Surely as someone who promotes driving schools, you can appreciate a wider curve of available power. Again, not peak numbers, but average.". Where is she getting her facts on a "wider curve of available power". Fred has done a DYNO RUN and has not found this to be true! I've also seen dyno runs that Claude Short Dodge did a couple of years back that said the same thing was true. So there are two souces that say larger/smoother TB's do nothing for power, yet KS is saying they do, and criticizing Fred for claiming otherwise, when his assertions are based in fact. I agree with you, Frank, everyone who posts opens themselves up to criticism, but KS is out of line, and completely lacking in facts to say the things she did regarding Fred's comments. As for not caring who owns/runs this board, well I personally think you should... it's paid for by the VCA. I like the idea of it being open, but KS is admittedly NOT a Viper owner (and I assume has little or no experience with Vipers), and she also has NO facts, and yet critiques Fred's factual dyno results? Gimme a break. There should at least be some basis for the retort other than "your facts dont matter cuz my car feels faster".

Chuck,

KS is not a guy - it's a woman... at least she claims to be. She also made a pretty snippy response to JonB in another thread, criticizing him for being upset that some kids were causing him the run-around. KS has been combative and a bit snippy in every single post of hers that I've seen. I'm happy to see owners of other marques here, but to be an arrogant guest is to be an unwelcome guest.


One thing I'd like to say to EVERYONE reading this thread, is that David Wilks is expressely NOT saying that these throttle bodies will provide any gain in power. I think he is doing the right thing. For $125, that is a GOOD price for a port/polish job on TB's, and if Dave (the guy who DOES the work!) isn't claiming they produce any power, why would anyone else argue that?


<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by Mike Brunton on December 12, 2000 at 23:26</font>

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

Based on the HP gained from K&N filters with smooth tubes, make an extra 10-18 hp om a GENII, I was surprised that the larger T.Bodies did not make a more than 1 hp. The final word however is not out as the engine in question is in the final tuning (using various cats, computer adj. ) stage by CDI. Rotate tires on a Viper?

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[FRANK]

Yes rotated the tires...side to side...I have done this...Remove the tires switch them onto the opposite rim and get them re-spin balanced.
Why did you think I meant front to back? I think not.

 

[Frank 03SRT]

You can't rotate the tires on mine at all. They have directional arrows on them. The only way to rotate mine is by driving it.

 

[Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder]

The original question, "Has anyone done this? What was done and any dyno figures??" I posted Dyno results from Caldwell Dev. on a modified (Manifold extrude honed, heads ported polished, SS valves, T&D 1.7 roller rockers, custom cam grind, GTSR rods and pistons) Viper V10 engine. This engine is being tuned(headers compared, cats compared, T.Boddies evaluated, computer adj.) for max. average HP/Torque. During the T.Body tuning stage Dan Cragin supplied CDI with larger T.Bodies and the result was 1 HP gain! These are facts, And it is my engine. There is no throttle feel input only engine dyno numbers as reported by Caldwell on a specific engine!

The following is a quote from K.S.
"I just cannot understand why you are all so quick to go to guns on a post. So much of all this is all opinion. I was just pointing out to Fred that the power gain is subjective and feels much better. I noticed a lot on my car. I am sure that the Viper would make quite a difference because David showed me how much was being removed from in front of the the butterfly compared to stock. Secondly, for the price you cannot modify much else than K&N's and feel anything."

I consider CDI dyno numbers as objective and a specific answer to the original post. K.S. your comments are subjective and do not address the original question!

Frank, I have never changed a car tire nor do I ever plan to change a tire. I do not change oil(as a teenager and college student I did), today I do not rebuild engines or install headers (as a teenager and college student I did) Today I enjoy track events where my tires, brake pads, and brake fluid are changed by others and I concentrate on driving. This is my idea of a good track event. I do wash and detail my Vipers and I do try to understand modification cost vs benefit.

Before adding HP to a Viper, I encourage Viper owners to take several Performance Driving programs from Skip Barber and to continue their driving advancement via events such as "Viper Days" I want our VCA members to maximize their ownership in the safest possible venue.

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[Jerry Scott[CO]]

I agree with Fred. I have seen dyno data that shows that enlarging throttle bodies on engines that are nearly stock or that only have headers have resulted in a no power gain and often a loss of power.

 

[Mike Brunton]

Frank,

The tires are left/right specific also. You're not supposed to switch them left to right. Sounds like a lot of work to go through (demounting/remounting/balancing) just to rotate left/right.

 

[FRANK]

First of all, tires (not rims and tires) CAN be rotated from side to side. I love seeing posts by Frank 00GTS who has no idea of what I am talking about or just has no idea whatsoever. Tires are not left or right specific guys. As long as the directional arrow faces forward it will be fine. Switching tires side to side is not alot of work just the cost of mounting/balancing. Helps even out wear on the edges of the tires. Personally, I used to change tires as a kid and balanced more tires than you have had done for yourself over your entire life. I think alot of people on this board talk the talk but can't walk the walk.

 

[Bill/APEX Motorsports]

Actually, some tires are specific to each side of the car and therefore have a "Rotation Left Side" or "Rotation Right Side" marking on their outer sidewalls. Take a look at the Pirelli PZero Asimmetrico. It has a different tread pattern on the inside of the tire versus the outside.

 

[Bill/APEX Motorsports]

Actually, some tires are specific to each side of the car and therefore have a "Rotation Left Side" or "Rotation Right Side" marking on their outer sidewalls. Take a look at the Pirelli PZero Asimmetrico. It has a different tread pattern on the inside of the tire versus the outside.

 

[ACR Joe]

Would some kind Monitor please put this ridiculous thread out of its miserable life. Life is way too short to engage in such nonsensical banter.