Rev Limitations

[EXECMALIBU]

SPINMONSTER...

I AM AN OLD HILL CLIMB AND ROAD-RACER THAT LIKES TO KEEP THE REVS ON THE HIGH END FOR MAXIMUM POWER..

BE VERY CAREFUL WHAT YOU DISCUSS ON THE VIPER BOARDS...

IN 2002 WHEN I WAS A NEWBY I MADE SOME HUGE MISTAKES AND REALLY PISSED A LOT OF THESE GUYS OFF!

I ASKED SOME SIMILAR QUESTIONS...

I ASKED WHY DOES D/C NOT OFFER FOR THE VIPER A HI-PO ENGINE OPTION LIKE THEIR OLD 426 HEMI, OR THE CHEVY LS-6,Z06,..THE BUICK STAGE-1/2 ...THE FORD 427MR+SOHC..OR THE OLDS W-30?

I ALSO REFERRED TO THE FACT THAT D/C RATED THE OUTPUT OF THE VIPER ENGINE AT 56 HP PER LITER WHICH I FELT WAS VERY LOW FOR A MODERN HI-PERFORMANCE ENGINE.. IT SEEMED TO ME THAT BASED ON THE HP PER LITER RATINGS FROM MANY OTHER BOTH VINTAGE AND MODERN NORMALLY ASPIRATED ENGINES THERE SHOULD BE AN EASY AND COST EFFECTIVE WAY TO PULL AT LEAST ANOTHER 100HP WITH MINOR ENGINE MODS.. HELL 450HP OUT OF 8 LITERS (488CI) IS NOTHING..

MAKING SUCH COMMENTS WAS BLASTPHEMY! WORSE THAN ASKING TO PARTY WITH THEIR DAUGHTERS OR SISTERS ..

THEY HAMMERED ME AND GOT VERY INSULTING..THEY SAID "THE STOCK VIPER HAS PLENTY OF POWER!" (BUT MANY OF THE SAME GUYS HAD BLOWERS AND NOS)..THEY SAID THAT "NO CAR COMPANY WOULD EVER RELEASE A CAR WITH OVER 500HP!"(NOW A MERCEDES 665HP CL65 FROM D/C!!)

MOST GUYS I HAVE DEALT WITH ON OTHER SITES GLADLY SHARE INFO AND IDEAS ON NEW OR INOVATIVE PERFORMANCE UPGRADES..COST IS NOT NORMALLY THE ISSUE! IF YOU WANT TO PLAY YOU HAVE TO PAY!!

BE CAREFUL

JUST A FRIENDLY WARNING

EXECMALIBU (AKA ON THIS SITE AS CAPSCLOWN)

 

[jrkermode]

EXEC,

Nice to have you back. I actually enjoyed the Super Viper Thread.


Spin,

Despite the fact that lots of folks have spent lots of money with lots of very intelligent tuners, the high rpm Viper motor remains a mystery.

You also need to keep a bit of perspective, the weekly production of small block Chevys likely exceeds the entire production history of Viper motors. So, it's unrealistic to expect the Viper motor would be anywhere near as well understood as the Chevy.

 

[Cris]

EXEC, if I recall correctly most of the criticism was aimed at your demand that DC produce a unique, higher powered version of the Viper. But what you failed to see then, and apparently now, is that for the potential production volume the additional costs to produce the unique hardware and obtain certification would be overwhelming. That it not a problem if you make thousands of Z06's based on a Corvette with tens of thousands sold each year. But here you are asking for a unique powertrain on a vehicle that starts with less than 2000 per year in volume.

Of the examples you gave only the Z06 is in the modern day for certification, and none are in the same volume range. And that is where the logic fails. The ability to spread those costs across enough of a production volume to make the price sensible.

 

[EXECMALIBU]

CRIS,

I TOTALLY DISAGREE...

THERE ARE LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF CARS THAT HAVE BEEN BUILT WITH A HI-PO OPTION.. EVERY AUTO COMPANY HAS SPENT MILLIONS AS THEY RESEARCHED AND DEVELOPED THE HI-PO ENGINES AND DRIVE TRAIN KNOWING THEY WILL BUILD VERY FEW...FAR FEWER THEN THE 1,500+/- VIPERS PER YEAR.

THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE IS THE IMAGE FACTOR IS HUGE FOR AUTO MANUFACTURES!!!

LIKE THE HUNDERDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS SPENT FOR INDY MOTORS THAT THEY ONLY RENT TO THE TEAMS AND NEVER SELL.. DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THE RENTAL COVERS THEIR R/D COSTS??

PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO INVESTIGATE A COUPLE OF NEW CARS BEING INTRODUCED IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS.. THE MERCEDES CL65 OR THE SL65 BOTH WITH A 615HP V12 WITH 2 TURBOS..

THEY ARE BEING BUILT BY A COMPANY YOU MAY HAVE HEARD OF CALLED DAIMLER/CHRYSLER! THE REASON I BRING THESE SPECIFIC CARS UP IS BECAUSE THE TOTAL WORLD PRODUCTION IS FIXED AT 550 FOR BOTH CARS!!!

PLEASE EXPLAIN HOW D/C CAN POSSIBLY DESIGN TWO ENTIRE CARS FROM NOSE TO TAIL SPENDING 100s OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS WITH A FIXED PRODUCTION RUN OF ONLY 550 PER YEAR.. REMEMBER THIS IS THE SAME COMPANY THAT BUILDS 1,500 VIPERS PER YEAR..

THE 100% NEW 585HP BENTLEY COUPE ALSO IS BEING BUILT BY VW IN VERY LIMITED NUMBERS OF NOT MORE THAN 600 CARS PER YEAR.. VW SPENT OVER 500 MILLION DOLLARS TO SELL ONLY 600 CARS A YEAR... DOES NOT MAKE SENSE??

ASTON MARTINS TOTAL WORLD PRODUCTION FOR EVERY CAR THEY HAVE EVER BUILT STARTING WITH THE FIRST ONE 70+ YEARS AGO IS LESS THAN THE VIPER PRODUCTION..BUT FORD KEEPS DESIGNING AND BUILDING ASTON MARTINS WITH A VERY VERY LOW TOTAL PRODUCTION NUMBERS..SOMETHING LIKE 400 CARS PER YEAR FOR THE ENTIRE WORLD!!...


CHECK THE VINTAGE HIPO PRODUCTION NUMBERS FOR THE MOPARS WITH THE 426 HEMI...THE TOTAL PRODUCTION WAS FAR LESS THEN THE VIPERS..

OR THE CHEVYS WITH AN LS5 OR LS6

THE TOTAL FORD 427 SOHC MOTORS EVER BUILT WAS ONLY AROUND 450..WHAT ABOUT ALL OF THE MONEY SPENT BY FORD FOR THE R AND D COSTS FOR THESE RARE MONSTERS..

AND THE BUICK GS 455 STAGE 2 WAS ONLY INSTALLED IN 115 CARS!!



FOR THE CAR COMPANIES TO RACE AND WIN ON SUNDAY MEANS BIG SALES ON MONDAY..THAT IS WHY THEY DO IT!

IT IS ALL ABOUT CREATING THE IMAGE!!! THE SAME REASON THE VIPER WAS BUILT!!

 

[onerareviper]

PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO INVESTIGATE A COUPLE OF NEW CARS BEING INTRODUCED IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS.. THE MERCEDES CL65 OR THE SL65 BOTH WITH A 665HP V12 WITH 4 TURBOS..

Hmmm.... Maybe you should take the time to investigate. 6.0-liter V12 engine capable of generating 612 horsepower and 723 lb.-ft. of torque. Oh yeah, and these engines have 2 turbos, not 4 --

BTW - Still a good bit slower than a stock Gen III Viper. ("the SL 65 AMG accelerates from 0 to 100 km/h in 4.2 seconds and passes the 200 km/h mark after just 12.9 seconds; its top speed is 250 km/h"). Not to mention if you have been paying attention Dodge had minor mods to a Gen III motor that put out 625 HP (Naturally Aspirated) at SEMA. Individual Throttle body intake and a few other goodies. No reason to re-invent the wheel.

 

[EXECMALIBU]

ONERAREVIPER..


YOU ARE CORRECT!

I WAS MISINFORMED BY THE FACTORY REP AT THE AUTO SHOW.. ON BOTH THE HP AND NUMBER OF TURBOS FOR THE CL65...AND I WAS ALSO WRONG ON THE PRODUCTION NUMBERS..THEY ARE ONLY PLANNING ON BUILDING 200 PER YEAR TO KEEP THEM EXCLUSIVE..

I HAD NOT HEARD THAT D/C HAS INTRODUCED A MOTOR UPGRADE FOR THE GEN III..THAT'S GREAT! WHAT TOOK SOOOOOO LONG??

WHY NOT ONE FOR THE GEN II MOTORS?? WILL THE NEW GEN III MANIFOLD FIT?

OBVIOUSLY FOR THE COMPANY THAT ORIGINALLY DESIGNED THE ENGINE TO DESIGN AND PRODUCE HI-PO PARTS IS A NO BRAINER..

LIKE EVERY OTHER VIPER PART THEY PROBABLY COST A SMALL FORTUNE BUT AT LEAST THE GEN III GUYS NOW HAVE THE OPTION OF ORIGINAL FACTORY PARTS..LIKE A COPO CHEVY OR A SOHC FORD..

THE VIPERS WITH FACTORY HI-PO PARTS WILL PROBABLY BE VERY COLLECTIBLE IN THE FUTURE AND BRING MUCH HIGHER PRICES THEN VIPERS WITH AFTER-MARKET MODS..

DO YOU AGREE?

 

[Ooomph]

please stop yelling

You must be registered for see images

 

[joe117]

Hey Ooomph, He's using caps. Who cares if you or anyone else has decided that using caps is yelling?
I don't use caps, you don't use caps. Why care if he uses caps?

The money spent on developing a low production performance car is really not so much when you think about how much these corporations spend on advertising.

How much does it cost to produce a good quality ad and show it on prime time network TV?

I think they lose money on every one they build, they only do it to sell more of their lesser cars.

 

[V10 ICBM]

You know - this all re;lates to the as yet unknown and unannounced SRT-10 GTS - i hope hope it will be good - BUT
I feel that in fact a CL65 or SL65 will spank it. I believe a SL65 has 734ftpounds torque - nice.
I love my Gen II - I will never part with it because it IS beautiful to me - but for new car car choices, yes, it would be nice if I didn't think that DC has abandoned Viper, gave it basically the same engine as my car (2000 GTS) with no substantial change on dyno numbers.

So, my view is that my next car will not be a Viper - unless come September, we get a 650hp, 750ftpound OEM stock STR-10 GTS coupe that looks good - if not I'll take another DC product that's here now.

I'll be patient a touch little longer...

 

[EXECMALIBU]

V10 ICBM,

WONT IT BE GREAT IF DC TOOK JUST A LIITLE BIT OF THE MONEY THEY SPENT ON THE SL65 OR THE MAYBACH AND INVESTED IT IN DEVELOPING A NEW 650HP V-10 FOR THE VIPER..


THAT WAY WE WONT HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT HAVING GRANDPA SPANK OUR VIPERS IN HIS CL65 ON HIS WAY TO CHURCH...

I THINK THAT TO DC THE VIPER IS A SECOND CLASS CITIZEN...

 

[SVS Turbo]

5-has anyone successfully run this engine near 7k?

As far as reasoning, a person interested in drag racing wants a higher rev limit so that regearing the car with say 4.10's along with drag radials or slicks gives a much better 0-60 and 1/4 mile times when you have the ability to cross the traps at 7k in 4th gear and not have to shift to second going to 60.

We must be the different sheep because we understand very well your reasoning for a higher revving V10 engine to take advantage of gearing at the 1/4 mile and at places such as Bonneville. We have run our V10 TT on an engine dyno at 5800 rpm for around a minute and a half, more than once while tuning. This is the same engine we have run at Bonneville 247mph, the standing mile 200mph (first V10) and the qtr. mile currently 9.1’s @ 154mph spinning the tires to 90ft. No Nos whatsoever. If we can achieve an 8 sec pass in the qtr. mile we will retire this engine with a wealth of knowledge. High revving has definitely allowed us to have more flexibility in gearing. Soon we will move on to a new V10 high revving engine project, projected to be more powerful that should provide even greater results. We have had our RS TT built and ready to go for almost 2 years. We mocked it up in the Stryker SVS GTS, removed it, placed the current engine back in, and have been working extensively on the electronics. A single coil per cylinder and planning to be sequentially tuned with projections of 1500 – 1700 Hp. I surely would like to see the Viper hold the record for the worlds fastest car and with a little sweat and support we very well could make it happen. Higher revving is what will take us there.

Always thinking......

The Big BoYZ Club

Ron Jr.

 

[Torquemonster]

I'm with JR on this one.

The lower rpm engines have been all that has been required to date and they make phenomenol power and TORQUE when done right.

But those 5800rpm guys are going to be in for a spanking one day - and that is a fact.

You could rpm the V10 to 7000 with a top end change and cam change - but it would have a short life most likely. You basically need to open up the entire engine, tip everything out and throw it away, then start again. The basic castings are a great design but very lightweight so need some help, tricks and support.

The cam timing is important too - and big cams with wide lobe centers (as most run to reduce overlap on the street) - don't rpm well, however the major impediement to date has been decent engine management to tune properly beyond the factory limit.

A project only needs to make sense to the person who does it - I admire anyone thinking outside the square.

I have an exclusive deal on a 40 valve Viper project that we at Heffners Performance are considering. That design will out perform even the Hemi by some margin at all engine speeds, but for various reasons we may shelve this idea until we see what DC comes up with. Afterall - if they decided to build a V10 hemi we'd have a 4V engine that would spank it silly but a huge marketing problem convincing the American public that their beloved Hemi is not the ultimate..... so we wait. Besides - the hemi is still a great design.

It is however something I really would love to do one day - and all naysayers will understand what a difference the better breathing makes when that time comes. If we had 40 serious buyers we'd do a 40 valve deal right now. Such an engine would be so far ahead in any form of racing you can think of as to defy comparison provided it held together - and we've got our own ideas on how we'd do that.

As for extra size - the 40V design we would use would add hardly any weight and make the engine no more than an inch wider per side, w/plugs in the top like a Hemi. We'd keep the stock cam location - OHC is a waste of space, weight and money unless you go to variable cam timing.

A wider rpm power band provides opportunity to multiply torque more (via gearing) and extend intervals between gear changes - whichever works best for the racing you are interested in. HP is king in a race, not bottom end torque, and why do you think 2.6 liter Skylines can run in the 7's and 8's? Hp + rpm x gearing which beats torque x tall gears.

Simple maths - if anyone wants I'll run some numbers and prove it

Good luck with your project - if you are good at engine building and have attention for detail - you'll make power to 7k easily. Good ported Viper heads exceed 300cfm - more than enough, but expect to make a lot of custom stuff and use top shelf. For rockers I'd go T & D, Mopar or Jesel.

Cheers
Torquemonster
Heffner Performance