Mark Red GTS Cooper
Enthusiast
Has anyone installed the Roe air/fuel meter by it self.
Roe Air/Fuel meter
- Thread starter Mark Red GTS Cooper
- Start date
Doug Supercharged Vipers
Enthusiast
Marc -
Sean's meter is really nice, but for your application you would need a heated 5 wire, wide band 02 sensor. As you know blower cars need a much richer fuel mixture to operate efficiently. Reading the OE Viper 02's for a supercharger application will provide you with nonviable data. For example, the factory 02's will provide you with a rich AFR reading of 14:0.1. A reading that shows 14:0.1 reads rich for the meter but LEAN for your SC car.
You can weld a **** into your exhaust and install a complete system -OR- We have a unit that we just shove in the tail pipe with the wide band 02 to get the exact reading in real time data.
Regards,
Doug
Sean's meter is really nice, but for your application you would need a heated 5 wire, wide band 02 sensor. As you know blower cars need a much richer fuel mixture to operate efficiently. Reading the OE Viper 02's for a supercharger application will provide you with nonviable data. For example, the factory 02's will provide you with a rich AFR reading of 14:0.1. A reading that shows 14:0.1 reads rich for the meter but LEAN for your SC car.
You can weld a **** into your exhaust and install a complete system -OR- We have a unit that we just shove in the tail pipe with the wide band 02 to get the exact reading in real time data.
Regards,
Doug
Mark Red GTS Cooper
Enthusiast
Hi Doug,
The meter that Roe has works off the existing 02 wires at the PCM. So I guess your point is that the data it pulls will not be accurate.
When I talked to Sean he said that it should work fine, now I am confused! All I want to do is watch my air/fuel mixture to see when I get close to trouble spots.
How is the business going, hearing lots of good things!!
Mark
The meter that Roe has works off the existing 02 wires at the PCM. So I guess your point is that the data it pulls will not be accurate.
When I talked to Sean he said that it should work fine, now I am confused! All I want to do is watch my air/fuel mixture to see when I get close to trouble spots.
How is the business going, hearing lots of good things!!
Mark
Doug Supercharged Vipers
Enthusiast
Hi Mark -
Sean's unit will read accurate, don't get me wrong
, Its super .... But you won't be able to benefit the same as a normally aspirated car. The factory 02's won't read in a wide range or wide band. If the meter indicates (lets say) 14:0.1 - This would show rich for the factory 02's. If the meter shows rich, how can you tell if your not too lean?
Once again, if the meter is showing rich at 14:0.1, this would be too lean for your car, agreed?
Business is good thanks for asking. I'm looking forward to testing some new computer retard gadgets for all types of Vipers.
I hope all is well and best of luck,
Doug
Sean's unit will read accurate, don't get me wrong
Once again, if the meter is showing rich at 14:0.1, this would be too lean for your car, agreed?
Business is good thanks for asking. I'm looking forward to testing some new computer retard gadgets for all types of Vipers.
I hope all is well and best of luck,
Doug
HouseofSpeed
Enthusiast
Mark, I think what Doug is trying to say...and in a very nice way...that to properly tune a car like yours, or any forced induction application, requires a wide band O2.
I have personally discussed this issue at length in other posts, and despite what Sean tells you, he is trying to sell a product that has very little tuning value. It is merely a monitor that turns the stock O2 reading into a neat little gadget.
The problem with trying to use the OE sensors is exactly as Doug mentions...they are designed to read an extremely finite range in terms of oxygen content. The OE sensors are fine for a PCM that is programmed for the VE, BSFC, BSAC, BMEP of a stock engine.Ultimately, the O2 is a galvanic battery that generates a voltage through a chemical reaction...its one scalar volt of measurement is then extrapolated and interpreted by the PCM as a given AF. That range is barely satisfactory for a stock car, much less a modified one that will require more fuel to make more power. The resolution of a stock O2 is so poor that once out of the 14.XX range in terms of AF...it is essentially useless. Remember the O2s are really for middle of the road operations and correction...they are not a factor on cold-start and not a factor on WOT performance.
Bottom line....you won't drive around with a wide-band on your car, its just not practical because they don't live very long under continuous operation. But they are the only way to properly tune in a performance application. If anyone needs further confirmation of the inefficiency of an OE O2 sensor as a tuning tool....drop me a line and I can supply you with the evidence from my research on the subject.
I have personally discussed this issue at length in other posts, and despite what Sean tells you, he is trying to sell a product that has very little tuning value. It is merely a monitor that turns the stock O2 reading into a neat little gadget.
The problem with trying to use the OE sensors is exactly as Doug mentions...they are designed to read an extremely finite range in terms of oxygen content. The OE sensors are fine for a PCM that is programmed for the VE, BSFC, BSAC, BMEP of a stock engine.Ultimately, the O2 is a galvanic battery that generates a voltage through a chemical reaction...its one scalar volt of measurement is then extrapolated and interpreted by the PCM as a given AF. That range is barely satisfactory for a stock car, much less a modified one that will require more fuel to make more power. The resolution of a stock O2 is so poor that once out of the 14.XX range in terms of AF...it is essentially useless. Remember the O2s are really for middle of the road operations and correction...they are not a factor on cold-start and not a factor on WOT performance.
Bottom line....you won't drive around with a wide-band on your car, its just not practical because they don't live very long under continuous operation. But they are the only way to properly tune in a performance application. If anyone needs further confirmation of the inefficiency of an OE O2 sensor as a tuning tool....drop me a line and I can supply you with the evidence from my research on the subject.
Mark Red GTS Cooper
Enthusiast
Kyle, Doug,
Thanks for the post! Once again the mebers of the board prove their weight in GOLD!!!
Doug, looking at the Dastek unichip ECU control, hope this works, all I need is to get rid of some richness down low, and bring the lean down up top. Pretty cool unit, laptop fed, has insertion points every 100 rpm to give gas, or take some away.
The lean part is not bad, 13:1, but I have a nice fat secton at 2200 and another dip at 4100.
Mark
Thanks for the post! Once again the mebers of the board prove their weight in GOLD!!!
Doug, looking at the Dastek unichip ECU control, hope this works, all I need is to get rid of some richness down low, and bring the lean down up top. Pretty cool unit, laptop fed, has insertion points every 100 rpm to give gas, or take some away.
The lean part is not bad, 13:1, but I have a nice fat secton at 2200 and another dip at 4100.
Mark
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HouseofSpeed:
I have personally discussed this issue at length in other posts, and despite what Sean tells you, he is trying to sell a product that has very little tuning value. It is merely a monitor that turns the stock O2 reading into a neat little gadget.
.....
Bottom line....you won't drive around with a wide-band on your car, its just not practical because they don't live very long under continuous operation. But they are the only way to properly tune in a performance application. If anyone needs further confirmation of the inefficiency of an OE O2 sensor as a tuning tool....drop me a line and I can supply you with the evidence from my research on the subject.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kyle,
Certainly the turbo and other forced induction systems that you have experience with and work on at Hennessey Motorsports can be better tuned with a wide band air/fuel meter. But, don't discount the usefulness of an air/fuel meter using the original equipment oxygen sensors in the majority of applications. With the original equipment O2's, you can read a range from as lean as 17.0:1 to as rich as 12.5:1 fairly accurately. I'd rather use a meter reading off a stock O2 than use a meter with the probe in the tailpipe, measuring the air/fuel ratio after the exhaust has passed through the catalytic converter where excess fuel is burned off (which shows a leaner air/fuel reading than actual).
The best way, as you and Doug and I know, is to weld a **** into each collector and use a wide band meter. But, that's not practical, as you had mentioned, for cars to use all the time, (not to mention expensive). Our gauge is a good tool and does read well within its 1 volt scale. If you can make a product that works better and is in the same price range ($129.00 individually with use and installation instructions, ready to install in Vipers), I suggest that you build it and offer them to the Viper community. Until then, if someone calls me and asks if the meter will work in their car, I will say "yes it does". It's completely up to them how they intend to use that tool and whether they get one or not.
Mark,
The Dastek Piggyback Computer/ Unichip / Racers Group PROgram does a nice job and is VERY similar in function to our Viper Engine Calibrator. Both alter the load calibration of the PCM to adjusting fuel and timing. Either one should do a fine job. The Dastek unit should be tuned on a dyno.
I have personally discussed this issue at length in other posts, and despite what Sean tells you, he is trying to sell a product that has very little tuning value. It is merely a monitor that turns the stock O2 reading into a neat little gadget.
.....
Bottom line....you won't drive around with a wide-band on your car, its just not practical because they don't live very long under continuous operation. But they are the only way to properly tune in a performance application. If anyone needs further confirmation of the inefficiency of an OE O2 sensor as a tuning tool....drop me a line and I can supply you with the evidence from my research on the subject.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Kyle,
Certainly the turbo and other forced induction systems that you have experience with and work on at Hennessey Motorsports can be better tuned with a wide band air/fuel meter. But, don't discount the usefulness of an air/fuel meter using the original equipment oxygen sensors in the majority of applications. With the original equipment O2's, you can read a range from as lean as 17.0:1 to as rich as 12.5:1 fairly accurately. I'd rather use a meter reading off a stock O2 than use a meter with the probe in the tailpipe, measuring the air/fuel ratio after the exhaust has passed through the catalytic converter where excess fuel is burned off (which shows a leaner air/fuel reading than actual).
The best way, as you and Doug and I know, is to weld a **** into each collector and use a wide band meter. But, that's not practical, as you had mentioned, for cars to use all the time, (not to mention expensive). Our gauge is a good tool and does read well within its 1 volt scale. If you can make a product that works better and is in the same price range ($129.00 individually with use and installation instructions, ready to install in Vipers), I suggest that you build it and offer them to the Viper community. Until then, if someone calls me and asks if the meter will work in their car, I will say "yes it does". It's completely up to them how they intend to use that tool and whether they get one or not.
Mark,
The Dastek Piggyback Computer/ Unichip / Racers Group PROgram does a nice job and is VERY similar in function to our Viper Engine Calibrator. Both alter the load calibration of the PCM to adjusting fuel and timing. Either one should do a fine job. The Dastek unit should be tuned on a dyno.
HouseofSpeed
Enthusiast
Sean....simply put, there is no way that a stock O2 will read from 12.0 to 17.0....Bosch and NGK will tell you that and they manufacture the sensors. I would hate to see someone lose an engine due to the improper application of your AF meter.
The reason why I am not offering a "competitive" piece is because there is little if any need for such....for most, there is no control over fuel or timing anyway (fixed maps in a stock or modded ECU) and therefore they have no need for an LED readout...For those that do have the VEC1 or the Dastek, or our secondary injector controller, they need a real tool when dynoing or preparing for the track.
If OE O2s really could read the range you claim...why would we have a need for widebands??? OH, no I do not think that a Sun 5 gas is the best way to read O2 content...obviously it is post cat and that info is virtually useless...other than for emissions testing.
The reason why I am not offering a "competitive" piece is because there is little if any need for such....for most, there is no control over fuel or timing anyway (fixed maps in a stock or modded ECU) and therefore they have no need for an LED readout...For those that do have the VEC1 or the Dastek, or our secondary injector controller, they need a real tool when dynoing or preparing for the track.
If OE O2s really could read the range you claim...why would we have a need for widebands??? OH, no I do not think that a Sun 5 gas is the best way to read O2 content...obviously it is post cat and that info is virtually useless...other than for emissions testing.
MES
Enthusiast
I have a Roe's A/F meter it seems to work but I don't know how accurate it is. Has anyone done a compairson with Roe A/F to what the A/F actually was? While I would not rely on it for tuning a super/turbo/nitrous engine, it does make an easy to read gauge to keep an eye on your engine. Kind of like an oil or temp gauge, while neither the oil or temp gauge is perfectly accurate they do give you some feedback about your engine.
Mes,
The answer to your question is; yes, it is accurate within the range it is designed to work in. The rich end of the gauge ends at 12.5:1 (12.5 parts air to 1 part fuel). We've found that normally aspirated Viper engines make the best power and are still rich enough to stave off lean mixture detonation at an air/fuel ratio of 13.2:1. Well within the gauges intended operating parameters.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark Cooper Red 00 GTS VA:
.....
When I talked to Sean he said that it should work fine, now I am confused! All I want to do is watch my air/fuel mixture to see when I get close to trouble spots.
......
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Obviously, Mark has a substantial investment in a supercharger system and he wants to make sure his car continues to run properly without damaging anything. Let's say, for example, that the shop that installed Mark's supercharger tuned the engine to run at an air/fuel mixture of 12:1 at full boost. Should Mark assume that because it was tuned properly at the initial installation that it will ALWAYS run that way? No. If engine components didn't wear out, break or go out of tune, we wouldn't need any gauges. It would be like saying "go ahead and remove the water temperature and oil pressure gauges, it was running right when I bought it and we won't be needing those". Gauges are indicators, right? If Mark's engine were to start to run lean over time, let's say because of a dirty or clogged fuel filter, can that harm his engine? YES. Would ANY of the factory gauges in the car show it's running leaner than it was originally tuned to? NO. Will the Roe Racing air/fuel meter show him when the engine is running leaner than 12.5:1? YES. In light of that, would you guys recommend that Mark and his supercharger installer assume that the engine will always be running okay and he'll NEVER need to monitor the air/fuel ratio? You know what they say about assuming.
The answer to your question is; yes, it is accurate within the range it is designed to work in. The rich end of the gauge ends at 12.5:1 (12.5 parts air to 1 part fuel). We've found that normally aspirated Viper engines make the best power and are still rich enough to stave off lean mixture detonation at an air/fuel ratio of 13.2:1. Well within the gauges intended operating parameters.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mark Cooper Red 00 GTS VA:
.....
When I talked to Sean he said that it should work fine, now I am confused! All I want to do is watch my air/fuel mixture to see when I get close to trouble spots.
......
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Obviously, Mark has a substantial investment in a supercharger system and he wants to make sure his car continues to run properly without damaging anything. Let's say, for example, that the shop that installed Mark's supercharger tuned the engine to run at an air/fuel mixture of 12:1 at full boost. Should Mark assume that because it was tuned properly at the initial installation that it will ALWAYS run that way? No. If engine components didn't wear out, break or go out of tune, we wouldn't need any gauges. It would be like saying "go ahead and remove the water temperature and oil pressure gauges, it was running right when I bought it and we won't be needing those". Gauges are indicators, right? If Mark's engine were to start to run lean over time, let's say because of a dirty or clogged fuel filter, can that harm his engine? YES. Would ANY of the factory gauges in the car show it's running leaner than it was originally tuned to? NO. Will the Roe Racing air/fuel meter show him when the engine is running leaner than 12.5:1? YES. In light of that, would you guys recommend that Mark and his supercharger installer assume that the engine will always be running okay and he'll NEVER need to monitor the air/fuel ratio? You know what they say about assuming.
