SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES

DodgeViper01

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Very interesting. Two issues. The Barret-Jackson comment suggests that the true fair market value far exceeds $120,000.00 and an IRS Agent would probably review the posts here if an examination occurred. Did, or is, the current owner receiving any other benefit of any kind from anyone in exchange for allowing the VCA to obtain the vehicle for $120,000.00? If not great but if that is the case, why the big discount when they have an alleged $750,000.00 invested? I hate to rain on an exciting parade but when something seems illogical, a few questions are in order.

That was the first thing I was thinking. No one gives items away just because they like you!!
 

DodgeViper01

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This car was for sale before the announcement and no one jumped on it?????? I find that a little hard to believe. Was it one of those secret; only a few people know is for sale type of offerings?
 

Y2K5SRT

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Bob - Apology accepted and let's move on.
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Flash - Expect an e-mail from VCA HQ and/or your regional presidents. We will let you know the day the license is issued and tickets available. We will also post that information here along with a link to the entry form. We don't expect tickets to be available for long!
 

Catwood

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This one's pretty cool. Will you raffle off the '08 one next. That one I'd track. This one I wouldn't. Actually this one I'd vacuum seal for a few years. maybe....
 

Y2K5SRT

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This car was for sale before the announcement and no one jumped on it?????? I find that a little hard to believe. Was it one of those secret; only a few people know is for sale type of offerings?
Geez, I completely missed this one. Tiger, welcome to Dead Horse. Please grab a stick of your choice and start beating. :smirk:

BELIEVE IT. Again (and again and again) - I can't tell you WHERE they advertised it, but I will find out as it seems to be such an incredibly important (and moot) issue. I do know they were originally asking $175K on it and didn't get even a nibble. And I know they advertised it elsewhere. I will find out where so you can set your mind at ease and then start hitting yourself in the forehead for having missed that particular opportunity. I know I am.
 

Y2K5SRT

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This one's pretty cool. Will you raffle off the '08 one next.
Hey, aren't you getting a little ahead of yourself? :2tu:

One raffle at a time my friend. Why do you think we waited until the 15th to do the official announcement? Raffle truck was drawn on the 14th...
 

JohnnyBravo

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The car is clearly hideous and over valued. Nobody should be caught dead driving this car, nor should they be duped into the horrendous potential tax liability.

I suggest NOBODY buy any raffle tickets.


















Except me.

Honestly, if I wanted someone to crap on every cool thing that I liked in this world, I would have gotten married. I, for one, am willing to roll the dice on the tax liability for a chance to have a one-off work of automotive art like this. And for those of you who don't like it, I won't let you ride in it.
 

big-n-italian

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Honestly, if I wanted someone to crap on every cool thing that I liked in this world, I would have gotten married. I, for one, am willing to roll the dice on the tax liability for a chance to have a one-off work of automotive art like this. And for those of you who don't like it, I won't let you ride in it.

you do realize that you have to be a VCA member to buy a ticket, right?

i am not trying to be a smartass, but i noticed that it says "enthusiast" under your username, and there is no mention anywhere that you own a viper. if you arent a VCA member, you better become one quickly!! :2tu:
 

Bonkers

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Guys who gives a crap about what it might be worth.

I think you'd crap yourself big time if the VCA states $120k and
the IRS decided to charge you for $750,000 - that would mean you
owe $262,000 in taxes. Do you really think this would bring
$300,000 at BJ (read: $262,000 in FED taxes and $38,000 in BJ
seller fees?)

But I learned a thing or two about how the IRS feels about raffle
vehicles.

Reality is though that the IRS will only charge you about $50,000
AT MOST for the taxes on this vehicle as part of the win.
They're not going to be concerned with R&D fees associated as the
company probably already has accepted that as part of their earned
income. But that's only if you decide to keep it.

What the IRS will be concerned with is if you win the car and then
flip it for a profit. Expect to pay 38% of whatever the profit
difference is. Don't be eyeing this car as an immediate cash cow -
any money you make from it will be taxed to the fullest extent of the
law.
 

SylvanSRT

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here are some pics from Woodward Dream Cruise '06
dreamcruise3_032.jpg

dreamcruise3_034.jpg

dreamcruise3_030.jpg

dreamcruise3_029.jpg



btw dont worry about rain when your out for a drive just put a piece of plastic over the intake trumpets. ;)
 

DodgeViper01

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Geez, I completely missed this one. Tiger, welcome to Dead Horse. Please grab a stick of your choice and start beating. :smirk:

BELIEVE IT. Again (and again and again) - I can't tell you WHERE they advertised it, but I will find out as it seems to be such an incredibly important (and moot) issue. I do know they were originally asking $175K on it and didn't get even a nibble. And I know they advertised it elsewhere. I will find out where so you can set your mind at ease and then start hitting yourself in the forehead for having missed that particular opportunity. I know I am.

Give me a stick and I will be happy to commence the beating!! :curse:
 

Bonkers

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On another note - are sitckers going to magically appear on this
one like they did with the VOI9 raffle?
 

santo

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Does anyone know if there is any difference if someone wins outside of the USA like Canada or other countries? I always wondered and have not entered a draw because of it. This one, I may take a chance with but if I win, it seems that I'd have to sell my Viper ;-)

Bob, any ideas?

Santo
 

JohnnyBravo

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Honestly, if I wanted someone to crap on every cool thing that I liked in this world, I would have gotten married. I, for one, am willing to roll the dice on the tax liability for a chance to have a one-off work of automotive art like this. And for those of you who don't like it, I won't let you ride in it.

you do realize that you have to be a VCA member to buy a ticket, right?

i am not trying to be a smartass, but i noticed that it says "enthusiast" under your username, and there is no mention anywhere that you own a viper. if you arent a VCA member, you better become one quickly!! :2tu:

I have been a dues paying VCA member for at least 2 years now. I've got all the cool little badges to prove it. ;) I entered all of my information (including my VCA membership number and VIN number), on this site but it never changes my title or unlocks the member features. Chris Marshall was going to look into that for me.

And you should know I own a Viper, because Joe Donovan is the one that tuned it. :) I couldn't participate in your "guess the HP" thread because I probably knew your cars dyno numbers before you did. :D

1998 Viper GTS, Roe Supercharged 10.43 @ 137 on drag radials :2tu:
 

V10SpeedLuvr

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So do we have to pay taxes on $750,000?? Was this vehicle offered for sale beforehand? If so, where? Why did it not sell before? When can I buy tickets? Can I have the intake swapped to an OEM intake so I can drive it in the rain or do the occasional mud bogging in it? JK! Sorry Chris--just doing my best to be a pain in the butt ;)

Seriously, This has to be the coolest raffle car of all-time! Thanks VCA for giving us members a chance to win it!

(realistically, not all VCA members have a chance to win. Actually none of ya'll do. I cut a deal with Chris to cut and rake his lawn for the next 4,000 years if he'd rig the contest so I could win)
 

Nader

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With all the R&D that went into that car I am surprised they didnt try to mass produce and sell those parts.
 

Bobpantax

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1. "All applicable taxes, license and fees are the responsibility of the winner based on the retail value of the prize. Federal law requires the deposit of 25% of such value to be applied toward the winner’s tax liability before the prize can be released." Thus, assuming a value of $120,000.00, the winner has to come up with $30,000.00 to obtain the release of the car from the VCA. Then the winner would have to pay any applicable sales tax, titling fees and registration fees separately. The $30,000 dollars is not the total tax. It would depend on the tax bracket of the winner. Assuming maximum bracket, the federal income tax could be as much as $42,000.00. If someone had no other taxable income ( For instance they are living on non AMT municipal bond income ), the $120K would be taxed at a lower rate. Of course this does not count any additional state or local income other tangible personal property taxes that might apply.

2. As to Canada, the road to the answer is a little complicated. There is a US/Canadian income tax treaty. It contains a provision to avoid double taxation. An analysis would need to be done to determine whether a raffle prize win is covered by the treaty. Also, although the income ( raffle prize ) is US source income, it is not periodic and you are not engaged in a trade or business in the US by buying raffle tickets, so a little analysis would need to be done to see whether it is properly taxable in the US. Assuming that it is, you should receive a foreign tax credit against any Canadian tax due on the win, if any, for any US taxes paid.. ( I am assuming that the FMV of the prize from an extraterritorial ( US ) raffle win is taxable in Canada. I am also assuming that Canada has a foreign tax credit similar to that found in the Internal Revenue Code. You should check with your Canadian accountant for the precise and correct answers.) Lastly, Assuming the treaty applies to a raffle win, you would analyze the situation under the treaty to see if the result improves. I know, before you say it, the complexity seems ridiculous but the concept of national sovereignty and the meshing of two different and independent tax systems leads to the complexity.

3. The bottom line is that if someone does not have at least $35,000.00 or so laying around doing nothing plus the cost of the raffle tickets, they should probably stay out of the raffle. It is a fantastic vehicle. Thank goodness the folks at ASC did not have a clue as to how to market it. If they had posted it in our classified section, it would have probably been gone in a couple of days. If they had, in addition, moderator permitting, posted it in both the GTS and SRT forums with a minimum bid, a bidding war would have probably immediately commenced. Their loss, the VCA's gain.
 
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bigmike32172

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Well from looking at the pics of it being in the rain, I'm not interested. Plus it looks like Martin Lawrence already owns it! :bonker:
 

Jay Herbert

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This car is absolutely spectacular in person, the pearl white paint (a Harley Davidson color by the way) is perfect. The unpainted/cleared carbon fiber is very complimentary to the pearl, and the car does not look "black and white" in person.

But the coolest part? Those stacks, they are intended to mimic the McClaren Can-Am Cars intakes, and they do. Intake stacks and side pipes, it just does not get any better. It is fantastic that the VCA was able to obtain such a tremendous car for a raffle. When it was brought up at the Presidents meeting that this car might be available for a raffle car, I think they thought someone was pulling their leg. :2tu: for our current officers pulling it off.
 

Vipergtsbob

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My brother and sister VCA members and friends

Stop beating up our wonderful and extra hard working treasurer! :)
Seriously, we much appreciate the fantastic response the Diamondback has received as our next raffle cars and despite Chris's VERY PATIENT answers to all the notes and inquiries, I would like to just add a few more comments.

Having been personally involved in the selection of roughly the last 7 raffle vehicles I must say that with the possible exceptions of the 1 of 1 Comp Coupe raffle car and the GT 2 from years back, the Diamondback might be the most exclusive and rare animal we have yet procured for our members. It is simply OVERWHELMING! I believe the tax issue has been beat to death, but I would simply add that the VAST majority of our members would be very content to deal with any taxes once this car is parked in their garage! (and as has been said, if it bothers you, by all means don't buy a ticket and you can sleep at night knowing you will NEVER have the Diamondback to deal with)

Just a couple of additional observations regarding some of the posted info, (and I must say, why are some people always, always inclined to be negative in any way possible?) REMEMBER THE DIAMONDBACK RAFFLE IS BEING CONDUCTED ONLY TO FUND OUR CLUB FOR THE MEMBERSHIP. WHEN THE PRIZE CAN BE SOMETHING OF THIS LEVEL OF RARITY, WE CAN'T IMAGINE HOW ANY MEMBER COULD BE CRITICAL OF THIS EFFORT. NO ONE IS COMPELLED TO BUY A SINGLE TICKET, BUT NOT DOING SO PREVENTS YOUR CHANCE OF EVER OWNING A ONCE IN A LIFETIME VIPER AND AT WORST RESULTS IN YOUR HELPING YOUR CLUB! I should also note that in our recent National Board/Regional Presidents meeting in Detroit, your new National Officers were repeatedly requested to come up with new and more exclusive raffle cars. Candidly, I think the Diamondback is one helluva start!

One last item. A couple of posters seem unsatisfied as to how the VCA was able to procure this valuable car. Chris has patiently outlined the cost and some of the process, but I think one additional clarification is needed. The Diamondback was made available at the substantially reduced cost after negotiation with our friends at ASC (who for several years have applied the fantastic paint jobs on our production vipers!)and after ASC internally decided that the Diamondback could be best preserved by the VCA, who are all about vipers all the time. As some may know, many prototypes like this end up crushed or hidden in some out of sight collection, never to be seen again. ASC wanted this car to continue to be the center of Viper discussions for many years in the future; thus they gave us a fantastic price, but more important gave it to us on terms we are customarily able to meet. And yes, we did explore the Barrett Jackson alternative, but concluded that our auction would provide more certainty in return, and MOST IMPORTANT WOULD REMAIN (at least initially) WITHIN THE VIPER NATION. We further reasoned that if a future killing can be made at auction, why not allow our membership to have that opportunity rather than a non VCA member? Lastly, anyone can see that ASC gets a lot more publicity from this valuable car reciruclating within the most passionate group of sportscar owners on this planet, OUR VCA!!

Hope this information will be helpful AND BUY TICKETS AND HELP YOUR CLUB OUT!!!

My only regret about the Diamondback is that WE NATIONAL OFFICERS CANNOT BUY A TICKET!!! AHHH, THE FRUSTRATION OF LOW HANGING FRUIT....

Your frustrated but happy National President,
Bob Carroll
 

Bobpantax

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Y2KSRT did an excellent job of reducing the concern over the valuation issue and establishing an evidentiary record for valuation. You may have just snatched defeat from victory with your assertion of a special discounted price given to the VCA by ASC. Y2KSRT said that the car was offered to the public at 175K by ASC and they could not sell it at that price. So do you want to reconsider your statement about a special price to the VCA? It is not fair to the membership for you to leave the uncertainty on the table. It is also not fair to Y2KSRT - the National Treasurer. Which is it? ASC was glad to finally sell it or the VCA got a special price? As I said above, data transparency is a good thing. Please clear this up. I think that this issue is a material fact with respect to the solicitation of the purchase of raffle tickets. Thank you in advance for providing clarification.

Bob
 

Vipergtsbob

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Is the horse dead yet?

Friends, and Bob P.

Let me again add some clarification to what I just posted. Please note that while nowhere in my post did I assert that the VCA alone or exclusively, was given "a special discounted price" or a "special price"; Indeed, I never used those phrases at all. Accuracy, like data transparency is also a good thing. However,to be "fair" upon rereading my language, I guess some ambiguity may remain as I stated the vehicle was made available at a "substantially reduced cost after negotiation". I certainly never stated such offer was exclusive to the VCA as Bob P's note may have mistakenly concluded. My fault for some lack of precision. Nonetheless, to eliminate any residual uncertainty or ambiguity I can offer some additional details which I trust will be helpful:

The VCA was not the EXCLUSIVE OR SOLE SOLICITOR OF THE DIAMONDBACK. We were informed that ASC offered the vehicle(and other ASC vehicles I might add) and was having discussions with several parties regarding the vehicle. ASC alone determined the final value and asking price for the vehicle. When we learned of its availability we pounced knowing its exclusivity and desireability, let alone the quality aspects of a OEM Viper vendor/contractor. Be very clear, that if we had passed on the Diamondback, others were ready to acquire it for the ASC offered price. The key to our "negotiation" did not revolve around the established price of 120K, but around whether ASC could work within the established VCA raffle protocols. The fact that ASC felt that the Diamondback would have the best home among Viper fanatics was a real plus for our club as we have never had the resources to buy such a vehicle "up front" as we must always await the outcome of a successful raffle to generate the resources to pay for same. Hope this clears up any residual issues regarding valuation. Bob P. after working your volunteer National Officers so hard tonight we expect you will be buying at least 10 tickets, correct? Thanks again.

Bob Carroll
 

NoRice

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If you look at all my posts, I am not saying the vehicle is worth 750K. In my first post it states that the value could be higher or lower than the development cost. FMV is the value used by the IRS. It is usually based on comparables but in this case, there really are no comparables. The problem with PatentLaw's and your view is that you are trying to value the car by merely adding the cost of the components and the labor to install them less a discount for it being a 2006 model underneath. It seems to me that that methodology is flawed and that a Tax Court Judge would quickly see that it is flawed. The flaw is that this car is a one off collector's car that was produced by legendary names in the gearhead world and that factor has to be considered. I am not saying its Shelby's Cobra, but I am saying this is an issue. I think that there are quite a few VCA members who would have paid more than 120K to buy the car for their collection.

Actually I was not using the method you described in the assumption of what the value of the car would be, as that would be flawed as you described. The car is a one off car, but it certainly can be compared to numerous other cars that are like it Bob. It was a car built for show by an aftermarket company for DC. It would be compared to other show cars that were built for show either for auto shows, SEMA, etc. Just because it is the only ASC Diamondback Viper does not make it any more difficult to appraise than any other one off show car. An appriaser will just research previous sales of show cars and will be able to come to a very reasonable opinion of value. There currently is a one off 3D Mustang that won top honors at last years SEMA show being offered at $120k. There was a SEMA award winning showcar Supra that was sold not too long ago for $80k. These are just the last 2 sales of one off show cars that I can remember, but I am sure an appriaser in this field will have numerous comparable sales to use in valuing this car and would come to a value fairly easily. The method decribed above would be the same method the IRS would use in finding the value of the car.

As for the value of the raffle tickets you are correct, however I was basing my number off the discount given when purchasing 3 tickets. If I can buy 3 tickets at $100 each, I would assume I could buy all 2500 tickets at $100 each for a total of $250k.

On another note, I am curious when you are out and about and meet new people do they immediately guess that you are lawyer? :laugh:
 

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