Tri-Y headers vs 5 into 1
- Thread starter vipeuup
- Start date
got one
Enthusiast
I think it depends on your expectations and applications?
dave6666
Enthusiast
Call Lou Belanger for a schooling to end all schoolings.
-> Get settled in with large container of fav beverage.
-> Call Lou.
-> Relax, listen, and just try to shut him up.
Really though, it is worth it. Call him.
-> Get settled in with large container of fav beverage.
-> Call Lou.
-> Relax, listen, and just try to shut him up.
Really though, it is worth it. Call him.
I have Edelbrock 1 3/4" 5-1 headers on my sc'd Viper. Have a set of Belanger 5-2-1 in the garage. I was contemplating changing the headers around. The Belanger are 1 5/8" tubes compared to the 1 3/4" of the Edelbrocks. However, the Belangers have a 3" collector while the Edelbrocks have only a 2 1/2" collector. I removed the restrictive 'pickles' out of the Belangers so there's no issue with them any longer, but I don't understand why Edelbrock would build large tube headers with small collectors. Bellanger built small tube with restrictive pickles then uses a 3" Collector??? Even without the pickles I don't think there would be any performance gains from either header - probably same performance. Sean Roe told me to junk the pickles or lose 20hp becaues of the supercharger.
I think I'll eventually just chop the collectors off of the Edelbrocks, extend them a few inches and use 3" collectors. Stock 2 1/2" collectors for a supercharged engine?
Ted
I think I'll eventually just chop the collectors off of the Edelbrocks, extend them a few inches and use 3" collectors. Stock 2 1/2" collectors for a supercharged engine?
Ted
dave6666
Enthusiast
Curious why your Belangers are 1-5/8 tube. Is that an old style? Mine, purchased in Dec '07 are 1-3/4 tube.
As far as the pickles goes, and I think this may have been for N/A engines, that the pickle has been determined to make no difference. I seem to recall someone did a with and without pickle dyno run and the difference was nil. Probably worth searching if interested. I left mine in.
One reason for maybe the larger 3" collector on the Belanger is the pickle. And on the Edelbrocks if they do not have a collector restriction then that is why they go with 2-1/2 on the collector.
Bigger is not better could possibly be said about the collector. The smaller diameter will increase velocity through the collector and enable a scavenging effect to take place there. One tube can sweep the other tubes if you will. The net result of this sweeping is lower pressure in the individual tubes allowing for greater volumes at greater speeds of exhaust gas to exit the combustion chamber.
There is a balance on all of this. Tube diameter, tube length, collector diameter and shape. Aspiration type of engine, head work, cam, compression ratio etc. Only highly refined race cars have the balance perfect as they have but one engine. There are lots of different ideas on how our V10's should be, and only a few out-of-the-box headers to choose from. What works for you may not work for the next guy, if his or her engine etc is not the same.
Anyone with a higher degree of science than what I just tossed out feel free to over rule. I take it well.
Last edited:
v10kingsnake
Viper Owner
The back to back dyno runs regarding these headers that I recall were done on Norms big dog LPE all motor car and if I recall correctly the pickle was found "not so" beneficial when running high HP numbers on Norms ride. If you are reletively stock then leave the pickle alone, otherwise hack away.
Agreed. Just go to the source and ask the question. Plan to spend about an hour on the phone with him. Drain all bodily fluids before you call.
You must be registered for see images
You must be registered for see images
At lower volumes the pickle smoothes the flow from the tubes into the much larger collector. High hp and Forced Induction applications have too much exhaust flow to get past the pickle without being severely restricted. The picts show how much area is taken by the pickles.
http://www.burnsstainless.com/MergeCollectors/mergecollectors.html
Burns has some excellent info on header technology.
Ted
99 R/T 10
Enthusiast
Depends I guess on what you think is "beneficial". 40 HP across the power band seems like a good pick up of power:
Sorry but you need to get the data straight. That dyno chart compares 5 into 1 headers to Belangers. More than just pulling out a pickle in that comparo.
Apples and oranges
The 40hp pickle urban legend continues to live..
Apples and oranges
The 40hp pickle urban legend continues to live..
99 R/T 10
Enthusiast
True,
The thought is the pickle would cause a restriction with a big motor or forced induction car. I guess the only real way is to have someone with Balangers on a 8lbs Roe or Paxton to do a before and after dyno pull.
The thought is the pickle would cause a restriction with a big motor or forced induction car. I guess the only real way is to have someone with Balangers on a 8lbs Roe or Paxton to do a before and after dyno pull.
dave6666
Enthusiast
dave6666
Enthusiast
Thanks for the respones.
I also heard from several tuners. That the tri-y header, such as the bellangers. Make more midrange,peak power at lower RPMs.While with the 5 into1 makes peak power at the higher RPMs. THe 5 into 1 being a better header for track and 1/4mile use. While the tri-y being more favorable for the street.
I also heard from several tuners. That the tri-y header, such as the bellangers. Make more midrange,peak power at lower RPMs.While with the 5 into1 makes peak power at the higher RPMs. THe 5 into 1 being a better header for track and 1/4mile use. While the tri-y being more favorable for the street.
G
grcforce327
Guest
Edelbrocks have a 3in. collector!!!
HEADERS : Edelbrock Headers - 92-02 Viper - Exhaust Systems - Roe Racing
Edelbrocks have a 3in. collector!!!
HEADERS : Edelbrock Headers - 92-02 Viper - Exhaust Systems - Roe Racing
I wish! Not mine. 3" Catback exhaust, but 2.5" out of header.
Ted
G
grcforce327
Guest
Don't know what you bought,mine were 3in. collectors into 3in. Roe exhaust!
Kenneth Krieger
Viper Owner
It seems as though there are a lot of people with the misconception that the "pickles" in headers are restrictive. This couldn't be farther from the truth. In researching the "flow" of exhaust gases, the flow is along the outside of the collector in a tornado type fashion.
As an example, if you look at the exhaust "cone" of a rocket, it is NOT the same size throughout. It tapers down in the mid-cone area, if you will. Why? Because the exhaust gases are forced through a smaller opening to create MORE flow, not less flow. The "pickle" actually increases the flow of the exhaust through the tornadic action of the collector. When looking at the gases under a color spectrometer, there is very little gas flow in the center of the collector. It is a total misconception that the "larger" the collector, the greater the flow.
Lou Belanger Sr. has been producing headers for 50 years, and they have consistently been the best performers overall. Lou (Jr. if you will), has been part of the header manufacturing business since he was a wee lad, and has the long term knowledge of the flow characteristics of headers that most people can never grasp.
The pickles creating restiction is a falicy........just thought you'd want to know what is really behind their use in the tri-y design.
As an example, if you look at the exhaust "cone" of a rocket, it is NOT the same size throughout. It tapers down in the mid-cone area, if you will. Why? Because the exhaust gases are forced through a smaller opening to create MORE flow, not less flow. The "pickle" actually increases the flow of the exhaust through the tornadic action of the collector. When looking at the gases under a color spectrometer, there is very little gas flow in the center of the collector. It is a total misconception that the "larger" the collector, the greater the flow.
Lou Belanger Sr. has been producing headers for 50 years, and they have consistently been the best performers overall. Lou (Jr. if you will), has been part of the header manufacturing business since he was a wee lad, and has the long term knowledge of the flow characteristics of headers that most people can never grasp.
The pickles creating restiction is a falicy........just thought you'd want to know what is really behind their use in the tri-y design.
On a stock engine, OK. Dave at Roe Racing wouldn't be telling me to expect a 20hp loss with pickles, unless they performed better with them removed "for supercharged applications". Superchargers, especially positive displacement types, create huge volume and different exhaust characteristics than n/a.
I agree with your anology to the rocket engine. Reading research on Burns collectors suports your case.
Ted
I agree with your anology to the rocket engine. Reading research on Burns collectors suports your case.
Ted
That's a summary of what Lou explained to me when I first asked him about his headers. I had the same concerns from reading posts here about the pickle and I didn't want to ditch his headers, or butcher them, by having to remove the pickle when I go S.C. I trust him and his opinion is the only one that matters to me as these are his headers.
dave6666
Enthusiast
I feel like I've pickled a few brain cells here.
Next topic... Mayo or Mustard?
Next topic... Mayo or Mustard?
