Why are Vipers with an extra 50HP not blowing away the competition in ET and MPH

[Toronto_ACR]

can someone please answer me a question which has been bothering me since I bought the Viper. Our cars have an extra 50 HP advantage on both the ZO6 and the 911 Turbo. But we are only beating the ZO6 by a bit and we are sometimes losing in the magazines to the 911 Turbo's in the quarter. I realize that the ZO6 is almost 250Ibs less than the Viper and the Porsche is a 4 wheel drive car. But the mile per hour should tell the story on horsepower. Our mile per hour is just a bit more than both of those cars. I have allways felt that the Viper is underperforming or the competition is overperforming. I think the Viper should be blowing them away like it should if you do the calculations

 

[Mike Brunton]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Toronto_ACR:
can someone please answer me a question which has been bothering me since I bought the Viper. Our cars have an extra 50 HP advantage on both the ZO6 and the 911 Turbo. But we are only beating the ZO6 by a bit and we are sometimes losing in the magazines to the 911 Turbo's in the quarter. I realize that the ZO6 is almost 250Ibs less than the Viper and the Porsche is a 4 wheel drive car. But the mile per hour should tell the story on horsepower. Our mile per hour is just a bit more than both of those cars. I have allways felt that the Viper is underperforming or the competition is overperforming. I think the Viper should be blowing them away like it should if you do the calculations

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MPH is a function of power to weight, not just power. My R1 with 135RWHP will run 135mph in the 1/4

 

[Tom Welch]

Hello,

The Viper is a difficult car to drive in comparison to the 4wd porshe and the less torqey Z-06(not that they are not worthy opponents)

Most magazine drivers are not prepared for the challenges that the viper presents with regards to drag strip launching.

The first 60 feet of a drag race is where the elapsed time is made. If you can't get a good launch, the elapsed time (and possibly the MPH)will suffer dearly.

To answer your question, with an additional 50 hp and who knows how much more torque, one must be able to put the extra power to the ground in order to see the gains. If the driver cannot accomplish that goal, then the real power of the vehicle will not be realized.

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Don't put all your stock in magazine test. I've been to several Viper vs Vette drags and the Viper consistantly beats the Z06 by .4. And as for road racing just look at the SCCA T1 class. The Viper again was whooping up on the Vette until the rules changed and forced the Viper to have restricter plates.

50 more hp and 100 more torque is hard to beat.

 

[Gerald]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Welch:
Hello,

The Viper is a difficult car to drive in comparison to the 4wd porshe and the less torqey Z-06(not that they are not worthy opponents)

Most magazine drivers are not prepared for the challenges that the viper presents with regards to drag strip launching.

The first 60 feet of a drag race is where the elapsed time is made. If you can't get a good launch, the elapsed time (and possibly the MPH)will suffer dearly.

To answer your question, with an additional 50 hp and who knows how much more torque, one must be able to put the extra power to the ground in order to see the gains. If the driver cannot accomplish that goal, then the real power of the vehicle will not be realized.

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What Tom said ...

To make the magazine tests fair I think they should get a driver who is USED to nearly 500 ft/lbs of torque and no 350 or so...

Gerald

 

[THEMASH]

At the Vette/Viper shootout i was at 2 days ago, most Z06s were running 12.5-12.8 @ 113-115 Vs my 11.8-12.1 @ 120-118. Many of the Z06s had basic bolt ons also (exhaust + intake and so on).

 

[Guibo]

I've only seen one head to head test where the 996 Turbo beat the Viper (an ACR). That was this test done by MT back in '00:
http://www.ultimateviper.com/docs/roadtests.html

Notice that while the Turbo was quicker, its trap speed was also 3 mph slower. And this is the quickest quarter mile on record I've ever seen for the Turbo. The result for that Viper was merely average. The old Z06 is quite a ways back in both ET and trap speed.


They went head to head again this year in C&D's Supercar Challenge. Even with a C&D editor at the wheel of the Viper (against the Turbo piloted by Le Mans/Daytona veteran Hurley Haywood and GM's factory racer John Heinricy in the Z06), the Viper stood its ground:

ACR
12.63 @ 117.10
12.58 @ 117.10
12.55 @ 116.45

996TT
13.04 @ 112.91
12.76 @ 113.55
12.92 @ 114.68
12.92 @ 114.05

Z06
12.79 @ 114.42
12.86 @ 113.31
12.77 @ 113.65
12.80 @ 114.31

But things only really open up after that initial launch.
"On the other hand, the Viper's quickest sprint from 100 to 150 mph in those first three runs was 12.5 seconds, almost three seconds faster than the Vette's 15.3 seconds and 1.7 seconds better than the Porsche's 13.6-second time."

This phenomenon isn't particularly new. The AWD Porsche Turbos have historically been quicker off the line than the Viper (the 993 Turbo/Turbo S routinely did 60 in 3.6-3.8 seconds), only to be gobbled at around 100 mph by the Viper.

 

[red98GTS]

Well spoken, Tom, once again. You see this again and again and will see it at VOI as well. Some guys with modified Vipers, catbacks, etc etc will not have as low of an elapsed time as some cars that are bone stock. Just go watch the drags when you're there. The LAUNCH is the whole deal. Ever watch a really good running hot rod launch? I mean something like a 9 or 10 sec. Camaro or whatever? They waste no time whatsoever in the first 60ft. None. GONE. It's all about the launch. More power doesn't necessarily guarantee a lower elapsed time, does it? No. That's why it's not a good idea for tuners to guarantee elapsed times. Instead, they can set a horsepower target, deliver it, and he rest is up to the person driving. pete the XGG

 

[garolittle]

I just do not get it. I watched several stock Vipers run in the low 12's at the Atlanta Dragway this weekend. Why are the magazine drivers so lousy?

 

[Tom Welch]

Watch out, 1badGTS will be mentioning his personal grand pooba, high wizard, exhaulted sling jedi magazine driver any time now! LOL......just kidding joe!

There are a few, i repeat a few decent magazine drivers out there, but most have difficulty handling a car like the viper. I can show examples in one model year of 8 different magazine tests and all of them show very different elapsed times for the viper.

I don't know anyone including myself who have mastered the art of launching a Viper on stock tires, its kind of like mastering the game of golf..there are just too many variables on any given track and day.

As for the porshe 4wd, I can't believe folks throw that car in the mix..4 wheels simply launch better than 2 and at over twice the price it should be compared to other more expensive cars. Id bet a monster truck will out 60' a stock Viper, but by 30 mph its over!

Just my crappy opinion as usual

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[Makara]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Welch:

As for the porshe 4wd, I can't believe folks throw that car in the mix..4 wheels simply launch better than 2 and at over twice the price it should be compared to other more expensive cars. Id bet a monster truck will out 60' a stock Viper, but by 30 mph its over!


Tom
Http://btrviper.com

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually I read that some of those monster trucks will hit 60 in 4 seconds. That will give a GTS (Not a RT-10 because they are slow... that should turn this into a four pager now) a good run for it's money to 60.

 

[Gerald]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2k2 Viper RT10:
HP doesn't detirmen the speed

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

your cars power is the MAIN determining factor in trap speed.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tom Welch:
Watch out, 1badGTS will be mentioning his personal grand pooba, high wizard, exhaulted sling jedi magazine driver any time now!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll do it for him Tom.
wwEd???

 

[Motor City Mad Man]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Makara:
Actually I read that some of those monster trucks will hit 60 in 4 seconds. That will give a GTS (Not a RT-10 because they are slow... that should turn this into a four pager now) a good run for it's money to 60.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If some monster trucks can hit 0-60 mph in 4 seconds, then what would a monster truck Viper do it in?

Enquiring minds want to know.

 

[genXgts]

Hey Sean, 1 less Blue/White for us to contend with when we sell our much despised GenII for a couple thousand bucks when the SRT hits our shores!

What's the slowest time you've seen in print for a GenII car, anyone?

I think I can recall a 12.6 off the top of my head....must be slower out there?

 

[EuG]

.

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by EuG on 09-12-2002 at 08:00 PM</font>

 

[EuG]

THEMASH,

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>t the Vette/Viper shootout i was at 2 days ago, most Z06s were running 12.5-12.8 @ 113-115 Vs my 11.8-12.1 @ 120-118. Many of the Z06s had basic bolt ons also (exhaust + intake and so on).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here’s what a guy (Ranger) ran on that same day in ’02 Z06 (11.823 @ 117.59 with 1.705 60’ on drag radials) http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=383311
The only mod was Cold-Air intake.

BTW: I got a video of one of your runs (12.2 @ 117.x against a blue GTS), if you want I can convert it and post it up.

Cheers.

 

[jrkermode]

Toronto, it will make more sense if you consider the following:

1. The Viper chassis was originally developed by Reynard engineering as a road racer. Consequently, the Viper has a lot of anti-dive and anti-squat built into its suspension geometry. This prevents weight transfer from front to rear. That's a good thing when you're driving around corners, that's a bad thing when you would prefer to stand the car on the rear hides. No weight = no traction = slow ET.

2. ET formulas simply use physics to compute the HP you actually used during a particular pass. Because of frictional losses, drag, etc.., and the fact that the motor won't always be running at peak HP, a real car on a real track won't achieve those ETs.

 

[Triple7]

I went shopping for a new Z-06 back in late spring (I am a former Vette owner.) The problem was that I had the opportunity to drive a Viper not to long ago and after driving the Vette I went out and paid $7500 more for a one owner low mileage GTS. There really is no comparison. The Vette uses 3.73 gears(and I haven't checked,but the gears in the tranny in 1st and 2nd seem lower also) to our 3.07s. The Z-06 actually gives up top speed to a regular Vette due to the gearing. The Z-06 was much easier to launch without just smoking the tires. I am sure Chevy set the car up with Viper 0-60 and quarter mile times in mind, but by the time you are in to 3rd gear it doesn't pull anything like the V-10. The 20 mph difference in top speed pretty much says it all.

 

[THEMASH]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EuG:


Here’s what a guy (Ranger) ran on that same day in ’02 Z06 (11.823 @ 117.59 with 1.705 60’ on drag radials)
The only mod was Cold-Air intake.

BTW: I got a video of one of your runs (12.2 @ 117.x against a blue GTS), if you want I can convert it and post it up.

Cheers.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, an 11.8 @ 117 is very fast for a Z06 with just an intake. He was not on street tires though, but still, fast car.

Do you have my 11.8 run on video? if you do, could you E-mail that to me.
Thanks in advance.

 

[EuG]

Mash,
No I don’t have your 11.8 pass, sorry

. I wasn’t taping (I was racing MY car) so don’t blame me LOL

 

[Diablo Joe]

Guys,

Dont forget altitude plays a big part in E.T's and trap speed as well.8 different tests were probably done in 8 different parts of the US.

Joe