ZF 8HP90

I Bin Therbefor

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Been looking at the Chrysler - ZP licensing arrangement as applies to trans. It appears that the ZF 8HP90 (Eight speed) has ample capacity to handle the 600 lb-ft input of the V-10. Further, it is relatively small and light. Lastly, it is avaiilable to Chrysler for purchase under the current arrangements. Seems like we may be seeing an automatic Viper sooner than not.:dunno:
 

kratedisease

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Can you please expand your post.... where did you get your info from ? an auto transmission would be AWESOME .... please explain further...is this your speculation or do you have solid info from inside chrysler ?
 

AbsolutHank

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Been looking at the Chrysler - ZP licensing arrangement as applies to trans. It appears that the ZF 8HP90 (Eight speed) has ample capacity to handle the 600 lb-ft input of the V-10. Further, it is relatively small and light. Lastly, it is avaiilable to Chrysler for purchase under the current arrangements. Seems like we may be seeing an automatic Viper sooner than not.:dunno:

The engineers said at VOI it was more of a packaging issue...I think.

If that's the case, we won't see one till a Gen VI
 

Voice of Reason

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I'm new to the Viper game but packaging seems like it wouldn't be an issue? The trans tunnel on this car seems HUGE compared to every other car I've owned, so how can they not fit a bigger trans in there?

Don't get me wrong, I have 0.zilch desire to see an auto trans in this car. Just adding a "how could it not fit?" point of view.
 

kratedisease

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SRT would sell to more outside the Viper community with an auto. Getting an auto would increase sales.... most corvettes sold are autos. All GT-R's also only have autos.... autos are the future...
 

Voice of Reason

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SRT would sell to more outside the Viper community with an auto. Getting an auto would increase sales.... most corvettes sold are autos. All GT-R's also only have autos.... autos are the future...

I wouldn't call what the GTR has an auto. Their trans has more in common with out trans than a typical auto trans. IMHO an auto trans is defined by the need for a torque converter which dual clutch trans do not have.
 

kratedisease

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I wouldn't call what the GTR has an auto. Their trans has more in common with out trans than a typical auto trans. IMHO an auto trans is defined by the need for a torque converter which dual clutch trans do not have.

Correct you are, but who cares if its an dual clutch or torque converter type.....lets get either type into the gen V Viper ASAP !!
 

SlateEd

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Haha fair enough- If the Viper were meant to be a drag race machine then yes, shooting oneself in the foot... But it's not. A Shelby is a better buy if that's really what you want... Or a GTR with mods...

On a road course, or on public roads, the difference in fractions of a second is negligible, and the benefit in driving enjoyment is immense. It's one of the last few things on our roads (in our culture in general?) that rewards you for knowing what you're doing and focussing on it while you're doing it... Why be so eager to dump that?
 

kratedisease

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Everyone knows that the future is in Auto transmissions.... preferably dual clutch.

I believe that Ferrari was the first manufacturer to use a dual clutch in their 355 model back in the mid to late 1990's, and now even my stupid 2007 VW EOS has a true dual clutch DSG transmission. The dual clutch is now trickling down to the lower end daily driver models.

For the Viper to survive it will have to have a dual clutch or at least an auto to be able to be viable. Today the manual transmission is still not yesterdays technology but

5 years from now when this gen 5 is a few years old we shall see if the car can still sell with 1990's manual transmission technology regarding the transmission.

If it does not get a auto within 5 years I strongly suspect the Viper will be dead.....

Remember, this gen 5 is not Revolutionary and it still kept quite a bit of left over old technology already. Nothing Revolutionary in this generation although it is a great car with drop dead awesome styling.
 

kratedisease

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Haha fair enough- If the Viper were meant to be a drag race machine then yes, shooting oneself in the foot... But it's not. A Shelby is a better buy if that's really what you want... Or a GTR with mods...

On a road course, or on public roads, the difference in fractions of a second is negligible, and the benefit in driving enjoyment is immense. It's one of the last few things on our roads (in our culture in general?) that rewards you for knowing what you're doing and focussing on it while you're doing it... Why be so eager to dump that?

YES, a manual is much more fun, BUT technology ( and broad appeal ) sells. TO be competitive and to stay alive, SRT must produce a Viper with an auto. If this 5th generation had an auto at launch I believe the car would appeal to more buyers outside the true ******** Viper community . Remember, the more Vipers sold = more money for future product deveolpement and an even more fantastic gen 6 Viper down the pike.
 
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I Bin Therbefor

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Can you please expand your post.... where did you get your info from ? an auto transmission would be AWESOME .... please explain further...is this your speculation or do you have solid info from inside chrysler ?

Simply do a google search on ZF 8HP90. You'll find a great deal of information specific to both the trans itself and the licensing agreement with Chrysler. The trans info shows the max inout capacity for the trans. The licensing agreement shows what Chrysler is doing currently about building trans under the agreement and buying trans from ZF. No inside info just public available info.
 

Alabaster Mamba

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So the fact is, if you don't want it, don't buy it. What is the harm in offering an auto to those that want it and a manual to those that want that?
 

BigDawg

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Correct you are, but who cares if its an dual clutch or torque converter type.....lets get either type into the gen V Viper ASAP !!

There is a HUGE difference.

The 8 speed is NOT suitable for the Viper. It's the typical auto trans with big RWHP loss. Putting that into a Viper would be a disgrace and I'm sure most people with knowledge of these transmissions would agree. The only "automatic" option would be the dual clutch type. If the auto is not faster than the manual then it is not the real deal. We're trying to go forwards here, not backwards.
 
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I Bin Therbefor

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Try

http://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmissions/ZF8.html

Which has an interesting series of articles on the ZF - Chrysler licensing agreement and the varios trans. being built by Chrysler and being bought. As I recall, the SRT Jeep with auto uses a ZF trans but I can't make out if it is built by Chrysler under the licensing agreement or bought from ZF. :2tu:
 

SylvanSRT

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most current and older torque convertor type even if they have a paddle/button shift(ala current corvette) are not efficient and have big losses to the rear wheels. the early f1 units ferrari put in were a hydo/pnuematic clucth with quick but not the fast shifts of the current ferrari or porsche pdk typpe units. if you look at the current state of the art in alms, lemans and rallying the sequential type units are stonger and far quicker, but in my estimation these are way to expensive to get into street cars at this point and have them be afforadable by most. i think even the new and current lemans vipers run a sequential type. cost no options i'd take a sequential
 

madninjaskillz

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A sequential in its current form is a pain in the a$$ to drive on public roads. Loud and clunky at low speeds and rough shifts.
 

MoparMap

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I've always heard that any variety of "auto clutch" trans was typically not very good for any kind of around town cruising. Having a computer try to modulate the pedal under stop and go traffic and the constantly changing conditions typically leads to a pretty jerky ride. One episode of Top Geark UK in particular comes to mind where Jeremy was driving a Ferrari through New York with a paddle shift. The car would buck really bad off of a stop and people thought he just didn't know how to drive a stick, but it was the computer doing all the work.

From a racing standpoint it makes sense, faster shifts = faster times, but for my money I still like to do it the old fashioned way. I like the control to put the car in whatever gear I want whenever I want (even if that doesn't work out so well like missing third and going back into first). I can coast down and skip all the way down to first or skip gears up when I'm just cruising around. It's kind of like the eletronic nannies people complain about. With a stick and clutch you have all the control and it's your fault when things go wrong, when the computer controls everything you might be able to drive a little faster, but I for one like to try to make myself better rather than rely on electronics to do it for me.
 

chorps

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Ralph stated in a video that we would see an auto.

EDIT: here is the video, 7:00 min mark to 8:15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XjKfXbUO0g

He starts off with "We're probably going to have to do something eventually. We're getting...our clientele is getting a little older and they would like to [interrupted] and they would like to experience...uh...the car. Nowadays the automated and automatic transmissions are so much better that they don't cost you any speed."

Interesting how he first looks at the non-stick shift as an entry point into opening up the market rather than going faster. He enjoys shifting the car, unlike that idiot Johnny Lieberman from MT...note that Ralph said probably, but I think that is more about the timeline rather than whether they will do it, and likely budget permitting.
 

viper GTS-R

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No.

Automatics are a way to a dull, boring driverless future.

I absolutely hate the fact my daily driver is only offered in an auto. I want to row gears and push in on a clutch but I can't because the platform is only built with the NAG1 or 42RLE autobore trans.

--RS
 

MoparMap

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I had the same issue when I was driving my 00 XKR I bought to commute in. Car was super nice, but just plain boring to drive all the time. Between cruise control and the auto I barely had to do anything and just got bored.
 

commandomatt

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I have zero experience with paddles/auto combo but I have been considering an 5.2 R8 and it appears that the trans of choice is definitely the 6 speed.

Not sure what type of auto trans the Audi r-tronic is. Anyone have the experience with those two transmission as a comparison ?

It may be another case of the owners wanting to get more involved with driving the car as opposed to getting lazy behind the wheel and just following along what the car decides to do.

Matt
 

SnakeBitten

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Ralph said in that video that in the life cycle of "this" car there will be some type of automated tranny in the car. That means to me that the Gen 5 WILL see some form of automated tranny. Seeing that Ralph is car guy through and through and the Gen 5 is his baby, I'm sure it will be a DCT type box. A DCT type box will put the Viper on par with the big dogs acceleration-wise easy.

Id still buy a manual over DCT just for the connection it gives to the car but its hard to argue against a DCT even if you are a manual lover like I am. Just look at the DCT in the McLaren, GTR, Porsche do with there lower power and torque than the Viper. I don't ever want to see the manual go away from the Viper, but I wouldn't complain about the addition of a DCT. Lets face it, when most see what the Viper will trap in the 1/4 or 1 mile with a DCT vs the manual I think quite a bit will switch to a DCT Viper. Obviously not talking about the full blown purists.
 

TrackAire

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I'm not sure the Viper has to have a DCT to be successful versus a non DCT auto. I've driven a couple of cars this year that had paddle shifters with a "traditional" torque converter type automatic and I think they would work well in a Viper. A lot of how a traditional automatic behaves when being driven on the track or in a high performance setting depends on the programming of the transmission, shift points, shift speed, etc. Too many people assume that it is going to feel like their Buick commuter car. The shifts can be very fast and the driver can control more of the shift points, etc if the system is tuned and designed for that. I've had cars that will snap your neck on each shift if the trans was built to do this. I've also driven so-called sports cars that would not downshift when I wanted them to because the computer would not allow it at the speed vs rpm I was at.

I have no lab test proof, but I would think a DCT would be most beneficial in a higher revving car that is light on the torque. Since I don't see the factory V10 going beyond 6500 rpm anytime soon, a traditional performance automatic with 7 to 8 gears may fit the bill better since the NA motor of the V10 has lots of torque and not as many revs like just about everybody else out there. The torque converter might also be a benefit to absorb some of the torque shock from the NA motor, allow better drag launches and maybe be easier on the rest of the chassis. Modern autos are very efficient so power robbing would be the least of my worries with the HP and torque a Viper produces. Lastly, if going to an auto trans, this is the perfect time to mate it with an electronic differential to allow it to compete with the other supercars out there.

I rented a Maserati GranTurismo (with traditional automatic) while on vacation near Palm Springs. I took the car one afternoon and went west on Hiway 74. This is a great road with lots of elevation change and tons of twisty turns. I was impressed at how fast the traditional transmission would shift and most importantly downshift when I wanted it to. It was a blast and would be perfectly happy if a auto trans would behave like that one did in a Viper. The Maserati did have a higher rpm range than a Viper, but way, way less torque. I honestly think if programmed correctly, a traditional auto would work well in a Viper for those that don't want a manual.

Not all supercars run the DCT, I do believe the Lambos are a single clutch auto style (harsher shifts, but lighter and less power robbing according to Lambo than a DCT). And for those looking at the Audi R8, this newest auto version is apparently superior than the previous generation. If you can't get the newest, I would stick with the manual on the R8.

Now here is the question I'm most concern with regarding an auto for the Viper (regardless of the design)....will it do five 20 minute sessions in 100 degree plus heat for an open track day and not overheat?? There are other DCT's on the market that cannot do more than 4 or 5 laps in the heat without going into limp mode, the Nissan GT-R being one that I have experience with.

Cheers,
George
 

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