Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Easy! Especially with all those high tech gadgets. Vipers **** for tracking, all that driving it makes you do. Too hard.
Easy! Especially with all those high tech gadgets. Vipers **** for tracking, all that driving it makes you do. Too hard.
ViperRay
Enthusiast
Well, on a more serious note (why when we were having such fun?), I just read the C&D article.
While some of you are focusing only on the numbers, I was impressed by the fact that the Viper handled better on the road course.
I don't consider this a small issue (I don't drag race my cars). Even though the vette edged out the viper on the road course, the better handling of the viper means that it would do better than the vette when the driver gets used to the car (they only did 8 laps).
A car that speaks to you and inspires confidence will ultimately allow you to go faster. Maybe in their efforts to lighten the Vette with aluminum chassis, etc., they neglected the important aspect of HANDLING! An uncommunicative or even unpredictable chassis will leave you afraid to probe the limits.
Anyway, that's the message I took home after reading the article.
That's not to say you couldn't get your groceries quicker in the vette.
While some of you are focusing only on the numbers, I was impressed by the fact that the Viper handled better on the road course.
I don't consider this a small issue (I don't drag race my cars). Even though the vette edged out the viper on the road course, the better handling of the viper means that it would do better than the vette when the driver gets used to the car (they only did 8 laps).
A car that speaks to you and inspires confidence will ultimately allow you to go faster. Maybe in their efforts to lighten the Vette with aluminum chassis, etc., they neglected the important aspect of HANDLING! An uncommunicative or even unpredictable chassis will leave you afraid to probe the limits.
Anyway, that's the message I took home after reading the article.
That's not to say you couldn't get your groceries quicker in the vette.
Tom and Vipers
Enthusiast
I like Viper over Corvette, however, these Corvette issues really bug me:
Lighter, around 3100+
More Hp/Cu.In. (they have quench, we have.... what?... is there a name for it??? @#(*$&#*)
Hp/lb. engine weight is off the scale. Engine is 200-300 lbs lighter. (HaHa, could put LS7 in Viper and get total weight of Corvette. This is sick.)
Longer WB
Over 22 cu.ft. trunk space.
Lighter, around 3100+
More Hp/Cu.In. (they have quench, we have.... what?... is there a name for it??? @#(*$&#*)
Hp/lb. engine weight is off the scale. Engine is 200-300 lbs lighter. (HaHa, could put LS7 in Viper and get total weight of Corvette. This is sick.)
Longer WB
Over 22 cu.ft. trunk space.
VENM8R
Viper Owner
Who <font color="red">FA</font>RTED on the Viper and why?
SylvanSRT
Enthusiast
seems to me it depends a lot on which car they send to the test and who is driving it. I have seen quite a lot of variation from rag to rag, i mean mag to mag. a ssuch
0-60
vet zo6 3.4-4.0
viper 3.7-4.1
ford gt 3.3-3.8
this much variation makes me wonder how prepped are these cars are some engineering mules or what other type of tricks are being used to get the best publishable times. And i would bet that most customer cars(straight production cars) dont get these benefits. And a lot of theses performance times will not be able to be duplicated by owners of standard cars.
0-60
vet zo6 3.4-4.0
viper 3.7-4.1
ford gt 3.3-3.8
this much variation makes me wonder how prepped are these cars are some engineering mules or what other type of tricks are being used to get the best publishable times. And i would bet that most customer cars(straight production cars) dont get these benefits. And a lot of theses performance times will not be able to be duplicated by owners of standard cars.
im very disappointed at dodge 
how come the ZO6 beats the viper so thats why i decided to buy the NEW SRTC lol
ZO6 maybe a little faster but
no ZO6 can match that
ever and never im in love
how come the ZO6 beats the viper so thats why i decided to buy the NEW SRTC lol ZO6 maybe a little faster but
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no ZO6 can match that
ever and never im in loveV 10 MAFIA
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Why do any of us really give a rats ass how fast the ZO6 is? The style is not even close to making par with the Viper and if we do care about getting beat on the road, you can install mods for under $5000 and wave it goodbye. Case closed. I think we all need to look at our cars in the garage and appreciate its awesome appearance, style and the potential to make this car as fast as you F*cking want it to be! People to this day still turn heads and say Holy Sh*t a Viper.
V10 Mafia, thats what im sayn who cares about the ZO6 !! faster ? then non would buy Porsche because of the ZO6 ? or a Ferrari or a lambo ? and if i want power i will start my TT viper or my S/C FE 
and i will have more than 2000HP to play with cant wait to order the SRTC 
and i will have more than 2000HP to play with cant wait to order the SRTC Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Because since 1992 Vipers have been the undisputed performance king and now that is no longer the case. This bothers Viper owners considering we have traditionally been genuine performance enthusiast and not posers.
BACKNBLACK
Enthusiast
The bottom line is no one can distinguish between a ZO6 and a regular Corvett. I agree with V10.Appreciate what you have.
DEVILDOG
VCA Member North TX
What he said times 2!
00prowler
Enthusiast
I bet most Vette guys would would beg to differ on that statement...Depends on what side of the fence your on...Al
Wrong on the first but right on the second. For the first 4 years of Viper the Corvette (King of the Hill) was faster and had more power. Not as quick because at that time the vette was heavier. But it was also MORE expensive than the Viper. Oh how things change.
Competition is what has made the vette so much better over the years. Without the Viper it would still probably be a 3xx hp secretaries car. Now we need to see the result of that same competition from the other side.
Mopar426
Enthusiast
Chuck, now you know exclusitivity is more important in a Sports car, it's been said here multiple times.
In the end I agree, buy what you like and make improvements as wanted/needed.
According to the talk on the Vette boards, and since it's first appearence, the majority of the Z-06 / Vette diehards were disappointed at the fact that it was NOT redily distinguishable.
I bet most Vette guys would would beg to differ on that statement...Depends on what side of the fence your on...Al
Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Chuck, now you know exclusitivity is more important in a Sorts car, it's been said here multiple times.
In the end I agree. buy what you like and make improvements as wanted/needed.
Yeah, I just love that "exclusitivity" argument.
So very, very important when chosing a performance car designed for strict driver input.Big Medicine
Enthusiast
In my opinion, this is consumerism at its worst.
Are we trying to objectively quantify some subjective criteria or are we trying to subjectively qualify using objective test results? Neither works; they are inverse qualities and you wind up in a fog.
Is it about which corporation produces the quickest/fastest or is it about my car being faster than yours, regardless of make & model?
If the former, we are talking pure consumerism and bragging rights. Fine, let's stick to that.
If it's the latter, comments about exclusivity and mod potential hold water in a separate discussion. If you want to talk about my car versus your car, then commentary on stock qualities of any particular model don't really apply.
Certainly I can't compare a 96 GTS to the performance of the new Z. Why would I try?
But if you want to talk about my car versus whatever car you have, I think I win hands down in a handful of categories, particularly performance and looks.
And that is what is most important to me.
Are we trying to objectively quantify some subjective criteria or are we trying to subjectively qualify using objective test results? Neither works; they are inverse qualities and you wind up in a fog.
Is it about which corporation produces the quickest/fastest or is it about my car being faster than yours, regardless of make & model?
If the former, we are talking pure consumerism and bragging rights. Fine, let's stick to that.
If it's the latter, comments about exclusivity and mod potential hold water in a separate discussion. If you want to talk about my car versus your car, then commentary on stock qualities of any particular model don't really apply.
Certainly I can't compare a 96 GTS to the performance of the new Z. Why would I try?
But if you want to talk about my car versus whatever car you have, I think I win hands down in a handful of categories, particularly performance and looks.
And that is what is most important to me.
V 10 MAFIA
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What the hell did you guys expect was going to happen anyway? Remember Daimler Chrysler (running the show on Viper performance standars)is German, not the old American Dodge since the beginning. We all new they were going to drop the ball on Viper performance this year. Why the big surprise all of a sudden? IMO it seems that today's Dodge has lost interest in reclaiming LeMans victorys along with keeping Viper an edge above all other American cars. If anything Chryler Daimler seems more interested in the new Firepower made on the Viper Chassis and they would be because its their own engineered car. Now the big question: Is today's Dodge going to have the balls to develop a Viper with a higher standard in horsepower/performance higher than all other American sports cars?. I too am sick of people telling me how fast the ZO6 is.
If people want to take it to the extreme, a Twin Turbo 1800 HP Viper will blow the doors off of the highest modified Twin Turbo ZO6 at 1000HP. If you want to compare standard production cars then don't be miffed that Viper fell behind because its European Counterpart doesn't vest a lot of capital in Viper R&D. Think about it, you know they could have easily made 600 HP min production car this year. I'm sure they have other cars that hold performance R&D priorities. I'm done ranting!
Big Medicine
Enthusiast
Where is the limit? Why not max it out right off the bat instead of finger fiddling Sally year after year?
I know emissions compliance is a limit, but head work isn't. Neither are headers or exhaust. Cams are no secret.
Get it over with and send it from the factory as good as it gets. Then we wouldn't have to endure all these threads.
Instead, we'd be focused on the more challenging technical aspects of improving performance, like weight reduction using new materials and vehicle intertial qualities.
Just maybe, it's all part of a marketing plan?
I know emissions compliance is a limit, but head work isn't. Neither are headers or exhaust. Cams are no secret.
Get it over with and send it from the factory as good as it gets. Then we wouldn't have to endure all these threads.
Instead, we'd be focused on the more challenging technical aspects of improving performance, like weight reduction using new materials and vehicle intertial qualities.
Just maybe, it's all part of a marketing plan?
Tom and Vipers
Enthusiast
GM -v- Dodge head technology
ViperRay:
Your observation about an unforgiving track handling contributing to slower track times is a reality. Years ago, I borrowed a friends 84 Z51 Corvette and I was having a ************ the back end out going around corners. I have NEVER driven another car like this!!!! But his Corvette was as predictable as a go-kart.
You have to be an expert racing driver to drive a Viper like that. (Don't forget, I was BORROWING A FRIEND'S CAR !!!)
_____________________________________
The crux of why I'm really jealous of the Corvette is the LS7 technology:
The engine is insanely light: Under 400 lbs and makes over 500 HP????
But this is more important, GM is getting more HP / cu.in. over Dodge. The 488 Viper should be close to 600 HP NA if given the same hp/ cu in. And this is pretty much straight forward because we get our displacement from 2 extra cylinders.
My concern is that the Dodge has a bad evolutionary path for the port/combustion/spark design. The Gm is quench, quench, quench. And SBC are being built way over 700 HP on 350 cu in all day long. Look at the SuperFlo Advanced Engine Conference Competitions.
and it is all quench, quench, quench...
Dodge, appears, by design, to avoid quench at all possible costs.
Hummmmm.....
I don't claim to know how to design a head, but I think Gm is ahead of Dodge regarding HP head design. I have the funny feeling that the Dodge head is set up for emissions with that abomination of a thing they call a spark plug.
C'mon you head gurus. You don't have to spill your secret beans to comment on this.
ViperRay:
Your observation about an unforgiving track handling contributing to slower track times is a reality. Years ago, I borrowed a friends 84 Z51 Corvette and I was having a ************ the back end out going around corners. I have NEVER driven another car like this!!!! But his Corvette was as predictable as a go-kart.
You have to be an expert racing driver to drive a Viper like that. (Don't forget, I was BORROWING A FRIEND'S CAR !!!)
_____________________________________
The crux of why I'm really jealous of the Corvette is the LS7 technology:
The engine is insanely light: Under 400 lbs and makes over 500 HP????
But this is more important, GM is getting more HP / cu.in. over Dodge. The 488 Viper should be close to 600 HP NA if given the same hp/ cu in. And this is pretty much straight forward because we get our displacement from 2 extra cylinders.
My concern is that the Dodge has a bad evolutionary path for the port/combustion/spark design. The Gm is quench, quench, quench. And SBC are being built way over 700 HP on 350 cu in all day long. Look at the SuperFlo Advanced Engine Conference Competitions.
and it is all quench, quench, quench...
Dodge, appears, by design, to avoid quench at all possible costs.
Hummmmm.....
I don't claim to know how to design a head, but I think Gm is ahead of Dodge regarding HP head design. I have the funny feeling that the Dodge head is set up for emissions with that abomination of a thing they call a spark plug.
C'mon you head gurus. You don't have to spill your secret beans to comment on this.
Hisserman
Enthusiast
Not all of this is subjective. It's no secret that since the introduction of the new Z06 the prices (and demand?) for Vipers have dropped. For years the Vipers were faster, no matter what Chebby produced -- you could always outrun any Vette with an older Viper.
Now there is an arguably a faster Vette for what used to be the cost of a used GTS. It doesn't make any difference to me, I'll still take the Viper every time, but the market is talking. We're all hoping that DCX makes a response, but in the meantime we're feeling it in the pocketbook.
Nonetheless, my car still turns heads and I've picked off a couple of new Z06's with my "old" GTS -- I'm not crying for anyone.
Now there is an arguably a faster Vette for what used to be the cost of a used GTS. It doesn't make any difference to me, I'll still take the Viper every time, but the market is talking. We're all hoping that DCX makes a response, but in the meantime we're feeling it in the pocketbook.
Nonetheless, my car still turns heads and I've picked off a couple of new Z06's with my "old" GTS -- I'm not crying for anyone.
DEVILDOG
VCA Member North TX
Of course it is part of the marketing plan. This way they get all those guys that have to have the latest/greatest stock version of the Viper or any other car to buy a new one every time they bump HP by 25 or more. Decide on what you really like and mod it to where you want and forget the year to year stock improvement BS trap to get your new car $$$s over and over and over again.
My .02.....cheaper than my $90K every 2 to 3 years plus another $30K+ hit on sale/trade-in plus another $6K+ sales tax plus another $3K gas guzzler tax plus another $20K+ in mods....over and over and over again. Not me....keeping what I have and loving it! Chuck 98 RT/10
Enthusiast
Are you implying heads, exhaust and cam don't affect emissions? If so, I think you might be wrong, but I'm no engineer.
ViperRay
Enthusiast
Tom, I don't think DC is willing to put the $$ into making the current engine more efficient.
They take the easier and less expensive routes like increasing displacement... of course there is room in this block to do that.
They take the easier and less expensive routes like increasing displacement... of course there is room in this block to do that.
Big Medicine
Enthusiast
Nope; just saying that folks modify those components routinely to improve performance w/o sacrificing emissions compliance. The factory plays it too conservatively.
Heads & cam definitely affect emissions; I don't understand how anything downstream of the cats could, e.g. cat back exhaust. Minimal backpressure downstream of the bottlneck, vented to atmosphere.
Heads & cam definitely affect emissions; I don't understand how anything downstream of the cats could, e.g. cat back exhaust. Minimal backpressure downstream of the bottlneck, vented to atmosphere.
V 10 MAFIA
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Totally agree! Now is the factory playing it conservative or they don't have intentions of spending more money unless a projected rise in sales is justified. Maybe they figured if the sales of the Coupe go well this year then they will go ahead with raising performance standards.
To keep the emissions the same, Dodge could have put a 510 stroker motor into production.
A few things that I can think of.
First the OEM has to meet emissions over the life of a car and not just when new. So take aged cats, higher emission ouput engines (piston ring and valve leakage ...), etc and then pass emissions. Also, emissions tests require that cars be run to high mileage using more normal customer usage cycles. That takes time and causes minor changes to take considerable time.
Lower back pressure means less exhaust gas in the catalysts at all times (remember PV=nRT). Less gas means the exhaust spends less time in the cat. Therefore less time to allow for chemical reactions. That CAN affect emissions.
I would guess than darn near every possible change could impact emissions, especially the emissions that occur before the cats are fully heated.
I would say that 15 years ago the OEMs would have said it would be impossible to make 500+ hp cars emissions capable. But they have and will continue to do so. I am sure that more and better things are in the future for us, no matter what the Washington people do as the engineers will find a way to make us power
First the OEM has to meet emissions over the life of a car and not just when new. So take aged cats, higher emission ouput engines (piston ring and valve leakage ...), etc and then pass emissions. Also, emissions tests require that cars be run to high mileage using more normal customer usage cycles. That takes time and causes minor changes to take considerable time.
Lower back pressure means less exhaust gas in the catalysts at all times (remember PV=nRT). Less gas means the exhaust spends less time in the cat. Therefore less time to allow for chemical reactions. That CAN affect emissions.
I would guess than darn near every possible change could impact emissions, especially the emissions that occur before the cats are fully heated.
I would say that 15 years ago the OEMs would have said it would be impossible to make 500+ hp cars emissions capable. But they have and will continue to do so. I am sure that more and better things are in the future for us, no matter what the Washington people do as the engineers will find a way to make us power
Gm "set up" their vettes for these tests cant you see that?????????????
every single mag that does a test is SOOOOOOO diffrent its not even funny I have seen 4.2, 4.1, 4.0, 3.9, 3.8, 3.7, 3.6, 3.5 and now a friggin 3.4 NOW that is a huge diffrence in performance, out of all the cars EVER tested I have never seen that big of a diffrence on the same car.
4.2 to a 3.4, 0 - 60 is like an Evo to a Saleen THATS A HUGE DIFFRENCE.
Not to mention the 1/4 mile changes just as much beteween mags.
GM is sending those cars to these tests "hooked up" Stevie wonder can see that, I'll bet my life the cars the GM is sending to these tests CAN NOT pass emissions like the ones in dealerships.
every single mag that does a test is SOOOOOOO diffrent its not even funny I have seen 4.2, 4.1, 4.0, 3.9, 3.8, 3.7, 3.6, 3.5 and now a friggin 3.4 NOW that is a huge diffrence in performance, out of all the cars EVER tested I have never seen that big of a diffrence on the same car.
4.2 to a 3.4, 0 - 60 is like an Evo to a Saleen THATS A HUGE DIFFRENCE.
Not to mention the 1/4 mile changes just as much beteween mags.
GM is sending those cars to these tests "hooked up" Stevie wonder can see that, I'll bet my life the cars the GM is sending to these tests CAN NOT pass emissions like the ones in dealerships.
