Water Methanol Update/Issues

Shelby3

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I've been running with the 0 degree washer fluid (about 18% methanol) in my injection system until recently switching to a 50/50 mixture. My car had initially picked up about 25rwhp on the washer fluid with no added timing advance. I assumed that was from the cooling effect of the water. After switching to the 50/50 mix with no changes in the VEC tuning, the car lost 45 hp on the dyno. Is this the result of the methanol enriching the fuel mixture? What is everyone else running for mixture of water/methanol?
 
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Shelby3

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Did you take air/fuel measurements on your runs with the 50/50 mix?

Yes but I don't trust the dyno jet numbers in this area. The place I dyno at hasn't changed the 02 sensor or filter in ages. My wide band commander had me as low as 11.2 but I didn't have it installed on previous runs to compare with.
 

Simms

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Is this the result of the methanol enriching the fuel mixture?

That would be my best guess as well, especially if you showed 11.2:1 under full boost.

I thought you running a larger fuel pump too (in other words you are not relying on the methanol to be your extra fuel in your setup)?
 
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Shelby3

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Is this the result of the methanol enriching the fuel mixture?

That would be my best guess as well, especially if you showed 11.2:1 under full boost.

I thought you running a larger fuel pump too (in other words you are not relying on the methanol to be your extra fuel in your setup)?

Yes I'm running a larger fuel pump but I didn't realize that the methanol would change the AFR significantly going from the zero degree washer fluid to the 50/50 mix. What are you running for mix?
 

Earl_H

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Yes...methanol can richen the A/F by that much. I run 100% **** on my Z (soon on the GTS). I can change A/F by 2-3pts (i.e below 9:1 to 12:1 w/o ****) just by playing with the pump volume.
 

Mr Hemi Head

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If you purchased Walmart windshield washer fluid, for your W/M system, follow this link. The MSDS information is listed there with the Methanol content.

Type "windshield washer fluid". in the Product Name field and Search. No additional information is needed. Rick

http://msds.walmartstores.com/
 

Mr Hemi Head

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Yes...methanol can richen the A/F by that much. I run 100% **** on my Z (soon on the GTS). I can change A/F by 2-3pts (i.e below 9:1 to 12:1 w/o ****) just by playing with the pump volume.

Earl what type of tank and lines will you use?
 

Earl_H

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I use my stock windshield washer fluid tank. The lines are methanol compatible. I purchased my kit from http://www.alkycontrol.com. Alchohol injection has been used in the buick world for ages. The guy really knows his stuff.

Btw, a lot of guys say that they don't use 100% ****. due to its flamability. I've been running it for almost 2 years w/o one problem. My single turbo Z made 740rwhp on pump gas at 15psi with ****. I was using 50lb injectors, a 9.4:1 compression ratio and an A/F ratio in the 10's, 90 degree day. If you do the math, you'll see that the injectors alone weren't enough to support 740rwhp. I didn't see a hint of knock. I am definitely a believer and will be retrofitting one of Julio's kits on my '98 GTS next spring.
 

Simms

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Is this the result of the methanol enriching the fuel mixture?

That would be my best guess as well, especially if you showed 11.2:1 under full boost.

I thought you running a larger fuel pump too (in other words you are not relying on the methanol to be your extra fuel in your setup)?

Yes I'm running a larger fuel pump but I didn't realize that the methanol would change the AFR significantly going from the zero degree washer fluid to the 50/50 mix. What are you running for mix?

I am just running washer fluid right now for mainly the cooling affect. I'm also running a larger pump like yourself.
 

orlandov10

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You're going to lose the cooling effect by increasing the ****, the water is what provides cooling. I spoke to a guy recently who owns a shop and specializes in high HP Lotus's, he was telling me that his Lotus makes over 700RWHP on a 4 cylinder with nothing but 91 octane and straight water injection, I've never heard of such a thing but the water is what keeps detonation away.
 
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Shelby3

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You're going to lose the cooling effect by increasing the ****, the water is what provides cooling. I spoke to a guy recently who owns a shop and specializes in high HP Lotus's, he was telling me that his Lotus makes over 700RWHP on a 4 cylinder with nothing but 91 octane and straight water injection, I've never heard of such a thing but the water is what keeps detonation away.

Doesn't the increase in octane from the methanol also reduce detonation?
 

v10sloboy

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I run 50/50 water ****. I can say that you must be accurate in the mix. I had a batch that was not correct mixture and my car started detonating.
 

JohnnyBravo

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Here's my understanding of the issue:

The methanol is essentially a high octane fuel. I believe it has an effective octane rating of like 116 octane or so.

The water is a cooling agent. Water has an amazing ability to dissipate heat.

If you have too much water in the mix, all you are going to do is quench the spark. You may cool the intake temps some, but the negative effect of blowing out the spark can outweigh that.

If you have too much methanol, the car will run considerably richer. It should reduce the probability of detonation, but you don't get all of the same effects as water as far as cooling and heat dissipation.

Methanol does not MAKE power, it helps reduce detonation. As a general rule, if you are running lean, you want to add fuel, because fuel makes power. If you are running rich, you want to pull out methanol.

A 50/50 or 60/40 methanol mix helps reduce the chances of detonation, still provide cooling of the intake charge temps, and not cause an exceedingly rich condition or blow out the spark.

That's simply my understanding of how the stuff works from my experience in the Supra and Viper world. I was running the windshield washer fluid (@18% ****) in my Viper and switched to my own blend of 50/50 **** and water. My tuner was able to roll more timing in without dentonation by having more **** in the mix, and I don't have any spark/ignition issues at all.

Just my $.02
 

Earl_H

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Methanol also acts as a cooling agent. Check out the buick boards (blasphemy, I know). I keep seeing guys spouting off about how you HAVE to add water to improve cooling. Check out the site that I referenced above. The site/business owner did some tests pre/post alchy on a hot-air (i.e.no intercooler) race buick. The saw > 50 degree drop in iat's with **** alone. You can add water, but why bother. Going with straight ****, reduces the chance of inconsistency in the "mixture".
 
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Shelby3

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Here's my understanding of the issue:

The methanol is essentially a high octane fuel. I believe it has an effective octane rating of like 116 octane or so.

The water is a cooling agent. Water has an amazing ability to dissipate heat.

If you have too much water in the mix, all you are going to do is quench the spark. You may cool the intake temps some, but the negative effect of blowing out the spark can outweigh that.

If you have too much methanol, the car will run considerably richer. It should reduce the probability of detonation, but you don't get all of the same effects as water as far as cooling and heat dissipation.

Methanol does not MAKE power, it helps reduce detonation. As a general rule, if you are running lean, you want to add fuel, because fuel makes power. If you are running rich, you want to pull out methanol.

A 50/50 or 60/40 methanol mix helps reduce the chances of detonation, still provide cooling of the intake charge temps, and not cause an exceedingly rich condition or blow out the spark.

That's simply my understanding of how the stuff works from my experience in the Supra and Viper world. I was running the windshield washer fluid (@18% ****) in my Viper and switched to my own blend of 50/50 **** and water. My tuner was able to roll more timing in without dentonation by having more **** in the mix, and I don't have any spark/ignition issues at all.

Just my $.02

Mark, Based on what you said here it is likely that increasing my **** percentage richened my AFR and cost me some rwhp. I guess I need to either add timing or go back to the lighter mix. Thanks
 

Mr Hemi Head

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Methanol also acts as a cooling agent. Check out the buick boards (blasphemy, I know). I keep seeing guys spouting off about how you HAVE to add water to improve cooling. Check out the site that I referenced above. The site/business owner did some tests pre/post alchy on a hot-air (i.e.no intercooler) race buick. The saw > 50 degree drop in iat's with **** alone. You can add water, but why bother. Going with straight ****, reduces the chance of inconsistency in the "mixture".

Earl you make some excellent points. The problem I have with the straight **** is one of safety. :nono: A washer tank is not designed to hold flammable liquids. In a collision you could have an explosion. :eek: The link you provided shows 1 gallon tanks, not nearly enough to supply a full tank of fuel on a Viper. I'm using about 2.5 gal per tank of fuel. So the tank would have to be in the passenger compartment. I guess a fuel cell would work.
 

JohnnyBravo

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Here's my understanding of the issue:

The methanol is essentially a high octane fuel. I believe it has an effective octane rating of like 116 octane or so.

The water is a cooling agent. Water has an amazing ability to dissipate heat.

If you have too much water in the mix, all you are going to do is quench the spark. You may cool the intake temps some, but the negative effect of blowing out the spark can outweigh that.

If you have too much methanol, the car will run considerably richer. It should reduce the probability of detonation, but you don't get all of the same effects as water as far as cooling and heat dissipation.

Methanol does not MAKE power, it helps reduce detonation. As a general rule, if you are running lean, you want to add fuel, because fuel makes power. If you are running rich, you want to pull out methanol.

A 50/50 or 60/40 methanol mix helps reduce the chances of detonation, still provide cooling of the intake charge temps, and not cause an exceedingly rich condition or blow out the spark.

That's simply my understanding of how the stuff works from my experience in the Supra and Viper world. I was running the windshield washer fluid (@18% ****) in my Viper and switched to my own blend of 50/50 **** and water. My tuner was able to roll more timing in without dentonation by having more **** in the mix, and I don't have any spark/ignition issues at all.

Just my $.02

Mark, Based on what you said here it is likely that increasing my **** percentage richened my AFR and cost me some rwhp. I guess I need to either add timing or go back to the lighter mix. Thanks

I would think that you are running rich. You haven't hurt anything, you just have to retune. You don't necessarily have to go back to the lighter mixture, either. I would put the car on the dyno and see what it is doing. Chances are, it's running a lot richer than it was because of the extra percentage of methanol. Rather than run a lower percentage of methanol, leave the 50/50 mix in the tank and either (a) add some timing if there are no signs of detonation and/or (b) pull some methanol out using the Vec2. Just get into your % tab anywhere you are rich and reduce the percentage of water/**** being sprayed in. You "should" pick up more power by leaving the mixture 50/50 and adjusting the tune, than you would going back to the old mixture.

Remember, if you've got a lean spot, add fuel. If you've got a rich spot, use the VEC2 to pull out some methanol. That's the general rule of thumb.

And if you hit 700 rwhp, you owe me dinner! :)
 
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Shelby3

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Here's my understanding of the issue:

The methanol is essentially a high octane fuel. I believe it has an effective octane rating of like 116 octane or so.

The water is a cooling agent. Water has an amazing ability to dissipate heat.

If you have too much water in the mix, all you are going to do is quench the spark. You may cool the intake temps some, but the negative effect of blowing out the spark can outweigh that.

If you have too much methanol, the car will run considerably richer. It should reduce the probability of detonation, but you don't get all of the same effects as water as far as cooling and heat dissipation.

Methanol does not MAKE power, it helps reduce detonation. As a general rule, if you are running lean, you want to add fuel, because fuel makes power. If you are running rich, you want to pull out methanol.

A 50/50 or 60/40 methanol mix helps reduce the chances of detonation, still provide cooling of the intake charge temps, and not cause an exceedingly rich condition or blow out the spark.

That's simply my understanding of how the stuff works from my experience in the Supra and Viper world. I was running the windshield washer fluid (@18% ****) in my Viper and switched to my own blend of 50/50 **** and water. My tuner was able to roll more timing in without dentonation by having more **** in the mix, and I don't have any spark/ignition issues at all.

Just my $.02

Mark, Based on what you said here it is likely that increasing my **** percentage richened my AFR and cost me some rwhp. I guess I need to either add timing or go back to the lighter mix. Thanks

I would think that you are running rich. You haven't hurt anything, you just have to retune. You don't necessarily have to go back to the lighter mixture, either. I would put the car on the dyno and see what it is doing. Chances are, it's running a lot richer than it was because of the extra percentage of methanol. Rather than run a lower percentage of methanol, leave the 50/50 mix in the tank and either (a) add some timing if there are no signs of detonation and/or (b) pull some methanol out using the Vec2. Just get into your % tab anywhere you are rich and reduce the percentage of water/**** being sprayed in. You "should" pick up more power by leaving the mixture 50/50 and adjusting the tune, than you would going back to the old mixture.

Remember, if you've got a lean spot, add fuel. If you've got a rich spot, use the VEC2 to pull out some methanol. That's the general rule of thumb.

And if you hit 700 rwhp, you owe me dinner! :)

I was at 696 rwhp before I went to the 50/50 mix so you are looking for a free meal for 4 rwhp? :bonker: I do believe your comments are accurate and will likely go with the retune. How is your Roe tune in terms of numbers? When the methanol kits were introduced there wasn't much discussion about the effects of the different consentrations on the tuning. It is appearing to be more critical than first imagined which is why I will continue to make my own mix. Percentages in the washer fluids are maximums and not always accurate below that.
 

JohnnyBravo

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Here's my understanding of the issue:

The methanol is essentially a high octane fuel. I believe it has an effective octane rating of like 116 octane or so.

The water is a cooling agent. Water has an amazing ability to dissipate heat.

If you have too much water in the mix, all you are going to do is quench the spark. You may cool the intake temps some, but the negative effect of blowing out the spark can outweigh that.

If you have too much methanol, the car will run considerably richer. It should reduce the probability of detonation, but you don't get all of the same effects as water as far as cooling and heat dissipation.

Methanol does not MAKE power, it helps reduce detonation. As a general rule, if you are running lean, you want to add fuel, because fuel makes power. If you are running rich, you want to pull out methanol.

A 50/50 or 60/40 methanol mix helps reduce the chances of detonation, still provide cooling of the intake charge temps, and not cause an exceedingly rich condition or blow out the spark.

That's simply my understanding of how the stuff works from my experience in the Supra and Viper world. I was running the windshield washer fluid (@18% ****) in my Viper and switched to my own blend of 50/50 **** and water. My tuner was able to roll more timing in without dentonation by having more **** in the mix, and I don't have any spark/ignition issues at all.

Just my $.02

Mark, Based on what you said here it is likely that increasing my **** percentage richened my AFR and cost me some rwhp. I guess I need to either add timing or go back to the lighter mix. Thanks

I would think that you are running rich. You haven't hurt anything, you just have to retune. You don't necessarily have to go back to the lighter mixture, either. I would put the car on the dyno and see what it is doing. Chances are, it's running a lot richer than it was because of the extra percentage of methanol. Rather than run a lower percentage of methanol, leave the 50/50 mix in the tank and either (a) add some timing if there are no signs of detonation and/or (b) pull some methanol out using the Vec2. Just get into your % tab anywhere you are rich and reduce the percentage of water/**** being sprayed in. You "should" pick up more power by leaving the mixture 50/50 and adjusting the tune, than you would going back to the old mixture.

Remember, if you've got a lean spot, add fuel. If you've got a rich spot, use the VEC2 to pull out some methanol. That's the general rule of thumb.

And if you hit 700 rwhp, you owe me dinner! :)

I was at 696 rwhp before I went to the 50/50 mix so you are looking for a free meal for 4 rwhp? :bonker: I do believe your comments are accurate and will likely go with the retune. How is your Roe tune in terms of numbers? When the methanol kits were introduced there wasn't much discussion about the effects of the different consentrations on the tuning. It is appearing to be more critical than first imagined which is why I will continue to make my own mix. Percentages in the washer fluids are maximums and not always accurate below that.

I figured that because you started at 696 rwhp, I was a shoe-in for that free meal! Pretty clever, I thought.

My Roe is coming along great. It's in the capable hands of Joe Donovan as we speak. It's now up to 610/665 on pump gas through the high flow cats. We've decided to ditch the cats as it appears they may now be a restriction (plus they still retain a fair amount of heat). I'm thinking about heads and lower intake port matching and/or some NOS. I'd love to get a 9 second pass out of that thing at least once. If I'm doing the math correctly, the car needs to make somewhere around 730 rwhp to pull off a 9.99 pass. Heads alone probably aren't going to get me there.

I have also switched to buying my own pure methanol for $2.50/gallon and mixing it with distilled water. I know for certain what my percentage is and I know the quality of the methanol because it comes right out of the barrel. It really isn't any more expensive than buying the washer fluid, either. According to Joe, there are a lot more benefits to the 50/50 mix once it's tuned. So far, I think his results are pretty good. The car was only making around 560-570 before he started working his magic on the dyno. He picked up around 40 rwhp and 60 lb/ft of tq just from tuning. There are actually areas under the curve that picked up more like 60 rwhp and 70 lb ft of tq. That probably matters more to me than the peak numbers.

I'd try leaving the 50/50 mix in the car and just going for a more agressive tune.

Always great talking to you!
 

Camfab

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Slightly off topic, but have any of you long term H20/**** users experienced any corrision issues yet? Particularly in the intake manifold and cylinder head. Methanol is very corrosive. Just interested if anyone has had any long term experience yet. Washing the oil off the cylinder walls under boost can be very destructive (100% **** and improper tuning).
 
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