Topawam
Viper Owner
My car is stock, and before starting to mod it, I want to take the good direction to achieve around 600 rwhp.
Thanks
Thanks
How to get 600 RWHP with a N/A motor?
- Thread starter Topawam
- Start date
Fast Freddy
Enthusiast
bore and stroke the bottom end. heads and cam. it can be done on pump gas but you will need to bore and stroke your engine to 600 ci. if you stay with the stock bottom end at 488 ci and you just do heads and cam you will be close if you jack your compression ratio to 12.0:1 and put in a big nasty roller camshaft. then you will have to run a minimum of 100 octane race gas.
Topawam
Viper Owner
Ok Freddy,
What mods you got on your ACR to get your numbers?
So, to get 600, I would need to bore and stroke, not fan of that...
Heads, cam on regular pump gas can get me close to 550?
What mods you got on your ACR to get your numbers?
So, to get 600, I would need to bore and stroke, not fan of that...
Heads, cam on regular pump gas can get me close to 550?
JohnnyBravo
Enthusiast
Top,
A good set of headers and a free flowing exhaust, plus filters, smoothtubes, ported and polished heads, a more agressive cam and a VEC2 for tuning, should get you somewhere in the neighborhood of 550 rwhp on pump gas. To pick up the extra 50 rwhp n/a would require going through the motor and probably offset grinding the crank, etc to get the displacement up around 510 cu in from 488 cu in.
As a general rule, if you figure out how much horsepower per cubic inch you are making, you can extrapolate that out to the bigger displacement motor. For example, if your car was making 488 hp at 488 cu in, then it should make around 510 hp with 510 cu in. To do a stroker motor on a Gen II car isn't cheap and probably isn't worth the extra 22-40 hp that you might pick up.
Just my $.02
A good set of headers and a free flowing exhaust, plus filters, smoothtubes, ported and polished heads, a more agressive cam and a VEC2 for tuning, should get you somewhere in the neighborhood of 550 rwhp on pump gas. To pick up the extra 50 rwhp n/a would require going through the motor and probably offset grinding the crank, etc to get the displacement up around 510 cu in from 488 cu in.
As a general rule, if you figure out how much horsepower per cubic inch you are making, you can extrapolate that out to the bigger displacement motor. For example, if your car was making 488 hp at 488 cu in, then it should make around 510 hp with 510 cu in. To do a stroker motor on a Gen II car isn't cheap and probably isn't worth the extra 22-40 hp that you might pick up.
Just my $.02
Topawam
Viper Owner
Thanks Johnny,
I think I will stay without going through motor and crank.
550 rwhp seems already a good step up.
Here what I was thinking for upgrade to get there:
Airbox from PBJ with K&N Filters and Tubes
Belanger headers with RandomTech HiFlow Cat, silencers and muffler delete
VEC2
Now, for the heads, cam, R&R, perhaps valve springs, etc, Who would be the Tuners to contact?
I think I will stay without going through motor and crank.
550 rwhp seems already a good step up.
Here what I was thinking for upgrade to get there:
Airbox from PBJ with K&N Filters and Tubes
Belanger headers with RandomTech HiFlow Cat, silencers and muffler delete
VEC2
Now, for the heads, cam, R&R, perhaps valve springs, etc, Who would be the Tuners to contact?
Topawam
Viper Owner
Thanks L8apx, very interesting...
Plum, yes, I would think Roe for his supercharger, Doug for Paxton SC, or Heffner for his Twin Turbo, but I do not have a name for the Job I am looking for... Thanks
Plum, yes, I would think Roe for his supercharger, Doug for Paxton SC, or Heffner for his Twin Turbo, but I do not have a name for the Job I am looking for... Thanks
Anthony - 98 GTS
Enthusiast
I am at 650+ rwhp N/A. You will need to go into the motor to cross 600 rwhp.
Topawam
Viper Owner
Nice numbers Anthony. Is there any problem of reliabality with such a package (700R) ?
Russ M
Enthusiast
I think it can be achieved on a stock bottom end, but it will most likely require the new head castings that are being offered now.
With their base flow numbers in the 330cfm range, they should be enough for 700rwhp with everything else (intake/cam/headers/tuning/etc...) being done right.
With their base flow numbers in the 330cfm range, they should be enough for 700rwhp with everything else (intake/cam/headers/tuning/etc...) being done right.
Topawam
Viper Owner
Hey Russ, could you tell who offers those new heads?
kwkshift
Enthusiast
I think for you to get to 600 rwhp on a stock bottom end would require you to spin the engine too fast. A 510 or more stroker would be the way to go. Yes, 600 rwhp can be done on pump gas, too. You'll need everything modified from the air filters to the tailpipe plus all of the supporting equipment like fuel injectors, lines, rails, VEC2, etc. etc.
I just put in an RSI built 510 in my '97 and on a conservative tune with a conservative dyno it made 585 rwhp and 590 rwtq. I'm still ironing out some of the bugs, but holy $hit is it fast. I love that N/A instant "snap" of power.
It has throttle bodies, port-matched intake, heads, T&D rockers, nasty cam, headers, 3" exhaust all the way back, B&B cat-back, etc, etc, etc. It's a lot of money and a lot of wrenching, but it's damn fun!
I just put in an RSI built 510 in my '97 and on a conservative tune with a conservative dyno it made 585 rwhp and 590 rwtq. I'm still ironing out some of the bugs, but holy $hit is it fast. I love that N/A instant "snap" of power.
It has throttle bodies, port-matched intake, heads, T&D rockers, nasty cam, headers, 3" exhaust all the way back, B&B cat-back, etc, etc, etc. It's a lot of money and a lot of wrenching, but it's damn fun!
Russ M
Enthusiast
http://www.jmcylinderheads.com/
If you look well enough you can find out flow rates and even dyno numbers.
Anthony - 98 GTS
Enthusiast
No problems on reliability other than running WAY too rich. I am still running the stock computer - which is my current bottle neck with no control over my fuel system/injectors.
I plan to install AEM in the near future.
99 R/T 10
Enthusiast
Hey Topawam,
Check your ***.
Check your ***.
Fast Freddy
Enthusiast
heads and cam here at 9.8:1 compression on pump gas. of course i have all the bolt ons and computer tune too. west coast viper did my engine work. i see that you are in florida i would contact sean roe
Topawam
Viper Owner
Thanks for all those infos. For those who have done the heads and cam upgrade, no problem of reliability?
If the car makes between 550 and 600 rwhp, do I need to change anything in the transmission, half shafts etc...
If the car makes between 550 and 600 rwhp, do I need to change anything in the transmission, half shafts etc...
CANTDRIVE55
Enthusiast
Hi,
No reliability issues...runs strong!
No reliability issues...runs strong!
Getting to 550 is straightforward.....getting to 600 is tougher.
This pull was done at the end of a tuning session, 98 degrees, 100% humidity so its probably a little low on HP and TQ, but probably not by much.
The motor mods are heads/cam, extrude-honed and port matched intake, bigger valves, manley springs, smooth tubes, K&N's, headers, VEC 2 and 1.7s. There ain't a whole lot more to do without boring/stroking.
550 is about the same as 600 as far as the things you'll beat and the things you'll lose to, and its a whole lot less machine work to the block and crank.
Good luck with your project!
This pull was done at the end of a tuning session, 98 degrees, 100% humidity so its probably a little low on HP and TQ, but probably not by much.
The motor mods are heads/cam, extrude-honed and port matched intake, bigger valves, manley springs, smooth tubes, K&N's, headers, VEC 2 and 1.7s. There ain't a whole lot more to do without boring/stroking.
550 is about the same as 600 as far as the things you'll beat and the things you'll lose to, and its a whole lot less machine work to the block and crank.
Good luck with your project!
wow, these viper castings sound amazing.. are they GTSR copies?
quote:
This New Viper Head will be made to accommodate both Gen-2 and Gen-3 cars. New features include intake valve sizes from 2.040 to 2.150. Exhaust size will be 1.580 to 1.625. Bore sizes will start at 4.030 and go up to 4.150. All existing intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds & aftermarket headers will fit the new head. The guide centers have been moved to unshroud the valves while improving the “line of sight” from the intake manifold to the valve and bore center. All of these changes while maintaining maximum port velocity will offer major air flow improvements over any current ported production head currently available today period (including the GTSR head). The new chamber design and spark plug placement will have a faster burn rate that will allow the customer to run higher compression and still run pump gas. The water jackets are improved and will allow the cylinder head to cool better. Deck thickness was increased for higher horsepower and blower applications. Material has been added around the rocker arm pads to help the valve train become more stable for higher rpm limits requiring higher lift cams that need more spring pressure. The head as a whole has more material to make the head more rigid for any application. At this point the only major change will be the need for a different offset on the rocker arms.
JZ 97 SS 1500
Viper Owner
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Nice cam, headers and swap in some ported Gen 3 heads.
00SVTdubs
Enthusiast
save a lot of money
Topawam
Viper Owner
Agree, but still, a $80k car with close to 600rwhp is an awesome deal
Thanks for all your input guys.
Racing Solutions
Enthusiast
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Reaching 600 plus to the wheels N/A can be tough over a heads and Cam set-up. First You will need to stroke the engine to at least 4.00 (510 ci). Unless you are going to run alot of compression then you can leave it at 488 ci. There are common mistakes when trying to reach this power level. You need to have the right piston combination with the right ring package. The cylinder heads are the main key when producing this kind of power. A bad or unexperianced valve job or spring combination can cause a power lose of up to 30 rwhp on a Viper. Camshaft selection is very important as well. I also recommend not running anything less than 1.75 primary on the header tubes. There are other small odd and ends like throttle bodies,and fuel injector requirements that go along with these power outputs. If you have any questions on trying to reach 600 rwhp feel free to email me [email protected]
Jason
Jason
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
I've seen 802hp at 5600rpm NA on race gas using 2 x 100mm throtle bodies, big heads, big headers, big custom intake and a cam with lots of overlap. To make a strong engine run street nice you should run AEM and low impedence injectors so it can be tamed at slow speeds.
It's all about cfm in and out. Once you have enough cfm thru the intake/exhaust the next big rpm limiter is the weight of the crank - but lighter custom ones will set you back. 488 cubes is fine with a tight quench, big cam and 93 pump gas - with cr around 11:1. A good water injection setup like Snows Performance would allow very high cr on pump gas and costs very little.
It's all about cfm in and out. Once you have enough cfm thru the intake/exhaust the next big rpm limiter is the weight of the crank - but lighter custom ones will set you back. 488 cubes is fine with a tight quench, big cam and 93 pump gas - with cr around 11:1. A good water injection setup like Snows Performance would allow very high cr on pump gas and costs very little.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
If that is 802 engine hp, at 5600 that is 650 lb-ft, or 30% more than the dyno chart above. What was the peak torque and what was torque at 3500?
Why is the weight of the crank the rpm limiter? It is spinning relatively close to it's own CG. Normally it's the piston/con rod weight, oiling, or breaking pin bores.
Why is the weight of the crank the rpm limiter? It is spinning relatively close to it's own CG. Normally it's the piston/con rod weight, oiling, or breaking pin bores.
Torquemonster
Enthusiast
Hey Tom
actually the engine was making 752lb/ft at 5600rpm
Heavy cranks and flywheels etc still have to be turned, and taking weight off there has always been a help along with everything else you said. It's a lot easier to spin an 80lb crank to 8000rpm than a 100lb one in the same block - that's a no brainer. UNfortunately it costs - especially when you want the lighter crank to be stronger than the heavy one.
do not have a dyno graph for that motor - peak torque would have to be somewhere between 752 and 780lb/ft just based on the peak power and rpm peak
it had very poor drivability around the pits due to the massive cam overlap. That could probably be tuned out a bit better with low impedence injectors (not sure if it had them) and some time on bottom end tuning.... engine management was a race stand alone setup. I've seen 8000rpm motors with better bottom end drivability so suspect it had high impedence injectors.
actually the engine was making 752lb/ft at 5600rpm
Heavy cranks and flywheels etc still have to be turned, and taking weight off there has always been a help along with everything else you said. It's a lot easier to spin an 80lb crank to 8000rpm than a 100lb one in the same block - that's a no brainer. UNfortunately it costs - especially when you want the lighter crank to be stronger than the heavy one.
do not have a dyno graph for that motor - peak torque would have to be somewhere between 752 and 780lb/ft just based on the peak power and rpm peak
it had very poor drivability around the pits due to the massive cam overlap. That could probably be tuned out a bit better with low impedence injectors (not sure if it had them) and some time on bottom end tuning.... engine management was a race stand alone setup. I've seen 8000rpm motors with better bottom end drivability so suspect it had high impedence injectors.
Tom F&L GoR
Enthusiast
You're right, I was correcting 15% for rear wheel and did that backwards.
I know from the F1 engines - 700+ hp, but at 20,000 RPM, that they also had "poor driveability." Just wondering.
I know from the F1 engines - 700+ hp, but at 20,000 RPM, that they also had "poor driveability." Just wondering.
