BlueGTS
Viper Owner
The Kumho V700's are amazing tires but they only come in 18's. You do not have enough power to spin them when up to temperature. Ditch the run flats and get a R-compound tire. They wear out fast but add a lot of safety.
360 on Freeway .......
- Thread starter mark777
- Start date
Chipster
Viper Owner
I NEVER NEVER NEVER get on it when the tires are cold. I too experienced some fishtailing soon after I got the car, was getting on the interstate and got on it a little too early in the curve. Since then, i'm pretty careful.
2002_Viper_GTS_ACR
Enthusiast
Couple of things probably going to make me look more of an ars that I already do.. but here goes.
1. Vipers are brutal, and you just got bit by the snake. They demand respect and arent for the timid of heart. Does this make us better men for having them, nope, just means we have a platform that demands respect or it will snap back at you. Its like having a pet snake, not IF its going to bite you just when.
2. If a viper isnt your kinda car (and for some its not), sell it and get a z06, they are faster and they have nanny controls that REALLY work. Vipers come from a breeding of "no frills" other then excessive hp to weight ratio, and when the vettes tried to do it with all their "frills", their sheet started busting (tranny, roofs, rotors, etc).
3. If you are going to keep the car, buy some Kumos or BFGs(crappy in the turns, but if you only nail it on straights, these are your ticket). Pilot Sport cups BLOW in cold weather, so ditch that idea completely. If you want to stick with street tires, get NON RUN CRAPS, and ALWAYS make sure you warm up the tires before you doing anything crazy, like WOT !!
4. Practice driving in a driving school, or parking lot, do WOT moves, and see what the outcome is, and correct and learn.
5. If you REALLY are worried about traction, do burn outs (to heat up your tires)in your drive way before leaving, its quite a show and neighbors absolutely love it. (Just kidding, more of a joke, but as the photo can attest, I sure have done it in mine.. lol, look in the garage for the viper)
Finally be safe in what ever choice/option you go with !!
Safe motoring,
Jon
1. Vipers are brutal, and you just got bit by the snake. They demand respect and arent for the timid of heart. Does this make us better men for having them, nope, just means we have a platform that demands respect or it will snap back at you. Its like having a pet snake, not IF its going to bite you just when.
2. If a viper isnt your kinda car (and for some its not), sell it and get a z06, they are faster and they have nanny controls that REALLY work. Vipers come from a breeding of "no frills" other then excessive hp to weight ratio, and when the vettes tried to do it with all their "frills", their sheet started busting (tranny, roofs, rotors, etc).
3. If you are going to keep the car, buy some Kumos or BFGs(crappy in the turns, but if you only nail it on straights, these are your ticket). Pilot Sport cups BLOW in cold weather, so ditch that idea completely. If you want to stick with street tires, get NON RUN CRAPS, and ALWAYS make sure you warm up the tires before you doing anything crazy, like WOT !!
4. Practice driving in a driving school, or parking lot, do WOT moves, and see what the outcome is, and correct and learn.
5. If you REALLY are worried about traction, do burn outs (to heat up your tires)in your drive way before leaving, its quite a show and neighbors absolutely love it. (Just kidding, more of a joke, but as the photo can attest, I sure have done it in mine.. lol, look in the garage for the viper)
Finally be safe in what ever choice/option you go with !!
Safe motoring,
Jon
mark777
Viper Owner
I guess we all have our opinions on why the car was designed (weight ratios...) the way it was but the bottom line is respect. One definetly has to respect the power this beast has and harness it rather than let it take you for a ride...
I have been doing research and here is what I have come up with so far (planning on ONLY using one set of tires/rims year-round):
1) Told I would benefit significantly from less weighty rims
-I was told this for reason: compare how it would feel to run a lap in
lightweight running shoes as compared to running in combat boots. It does
seem reasonable that you would be much more agile and in better control if
using lighter weight shoes...?
2) Recommended to go with non run-flat tire (agree here definetly). Was told the Kumho tires were not so nice on anything but smooth roads and that they tend to take more abuse from rocks and worse sidewalls. I have dumped the idea of using the Michelin sport cups based upon what I have read in this thread (thanks to everyone). I would like the softest rubber I guess that makes sense but don't necessarily want to do burnouts to make them work properly unless I absolutley have to. The only other tires I have been told to look at are some Toyo's and Michelin PS2's.
3) If I am going to benefit by lighter rims than I will probably go with 18's all the way around based upon what I have read so far... If that is the best way to go than was recommended to go with 345x30x18 rear and 285x30x18 front. Anybody have a different recommendation? John from Partsrack has a set of spring caps that will lower the car by 2/3 inch which should reduce the gap (will this work ok or is it strongly recommended to change suspension?).
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Mark
I have been doing research and here is what I have come up with so far (planning on ONLY using one set of tires/rims year-round):
1) Told I would benefit significantly from less weighty rims
-I was told this for reason: compare how it would feel to run a lap in
lightweight running shoes as compared to running in combat boots. It does
seem reasonable that you would be much more agile and in better control if
using lighter weight shoes...?
2) Recommended to go with non run-flat tire (agree here definetly). Was told the Kumho tires were not so nice on anything but smooth roads and that they tend to take more abuse from rocks and worse sidewalls. I have dumped the idea of using the Michelin sport cups based upon what I have read in this thread (thanks to everyone). I would like the softest rubber I guess that makes sense but don't necessarily want to do burnouts to make them work properly unless I absolutley have to. The only other tires I have been told to look at are some Toyo's and Michelin PS2's.
3) If I am going to benefit by lighter rims than I will probably go with 18's all the way around based upon what I have read so far... If that is the best way to go than was recommended to go with 345x30x18 rear and 285x30x18 front. Anybody have a different recommendation? John from Partsrack has a set of spring caps that will lower the car by 2/3 inch which should reduce the gap (will this work ok or is it strongly recommended to change suspension?).
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Mark
Mark,
Glad your OK. I did ALOT of research on the Viper before I bought one. I have a friend in the Prowler club who has owned a bunch of Vipers and knows them well. I sold a Tri-Power 4 Speed GTO to get the Viper. Read what he wrote me in May of 05 after I purchased my first Viper:
...yes, the cars are lethal to drive till you get used to the power(make a GTO seem like a Nash Metropolitan)....just use common sense and you will be fine....beware wet/cold pavement....no sudden moves under hard acceleration...keep it straight when you are into the throttle....FREEWAY RAMPS ARE A PLACE MANY DRIVERS LOSE THEM TOO....again, just use common sense and you will have zero problem....
I have heeded his advice.....
Regards,
John
Glad your OK. I did ALOT of research on the Viper before I bought one. I have a friend in the Prowler club who has owned a bunch of Vipers and knows them well. I sold a Tri-Power 4 Speed GTO to get the Viper. Read what he wrote me in May of 05 after I purchased my first Viper:
...yes, the cars are lethal to drive till you get used to the power(make a GTO seem like a Nash Metropolitan)....just use common sense and you will be fine....beware wet/cold pavement....no sudden moves under hard acceleration...keep it straight when you are into the throttle....FREEWAY RAMPS ARE A PLACE MANY DRIVERS LOSE THEM TOO....again, just use common sense and you will have zero problem....
I have heeded his advice.....
Regards,
John
mark777
Viper Owner
John,
That is probably the best advise as others have said. I am just considering other options to see if there is anything out there that might have given me a better chance to have avoided the spin out (other then more careful driving).
Better tires and lighter rims might have helped or maybe not, don't really know in this case.
That is probably the best advise as others have said. I am just considering other options to see if there is anything out there that might have given me a better chance to have avoided the spin out (other then more careful driving).
Better tires and lighter rims might have helped or maybe not, don't really know in this case.
Mark,
I had to take mine out this evening after reading your post - It is around 35 degrees in Dayton right now. They slip and slide all over when the tires and pavement are cold. And up here it lasts a while..... I drove my 2001 hard numerous times but the 2005 has just 490 miles on it so I have been fairly easy on it - never over 4000 RPM and never accelerated hard. That will probably have to come in the Spring - March or April..... bummer. I also know from experience that besides liquids on the road etc., if you hit it hard and it's on uneven pavement, hits a bump or something like that, that can cause a problem. Just need to be careful. To me, it's part of the fun. Although if I had done what you did and spun a 360, I may have a different opinion of fun.
Regards,
John
I had to take mine out this evening after reading your post - It is around 35 degrees in Dayton right now. They slip and slide all over when the tires and pavement are cold. And up here it lasts a while..... I drove my 2001 hard numerous times but the 2005 has just 490 miles on it so I have been fairly easy on it - never over 4000 RPM and never accelerated hard. That will probably have to come in the Spring - March or April..... bummer. I also know from experience that besides liquids on the road etc., if you hit it hard and it's on uneven pavement, hits a bump or something like that, that can cause a problem. Just need to be careful. To me, it's part of the fun. Although if I had done what you did and spun a 360, I may have a different opinion of fun.
Regards,
John
ILLSMOQ
Enthusiast
so did the pressure washer get the streaks out?
mark777
Viper Owner
One more piece of info I may have forgot to mention:
Car has stock run-flats and tire pressure was 21/20 on rear
and 20/20 on front.
Would this tire pressure have added to my problems?
Mark
Car has stock run-flats and tire pressure was 21/20 on rear
and 20/20 on front.
Would this tire pressure have added to my problems?
Mark
2002_Viper_GTS_ACR
Enthusiast
Ultimately.. yes..
but initially NO.. and I got a damn notice from the home owners association that I need to correct it before fines were levied. So it took an entire sunday of power spraying the drive way, before I finally get the marks to semi go away. Lesson learned, but tons of fun !!
Jon
Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder
Enthusiast
We all make mistakes and we all learn from mistakes. The Viper is a performance car that can deliver massive torque and deceleration. What keeps a vehicle in control is the driver. The tires are the only thing between the road and the car so clearly they are very important. And if you think about the size of the road in contact with the tires it is pretty amazing what cars and tires can deliver.
Cold tires or roads will have reduced grip. Soft racing slicks will lose grip easier when they are cold. I know I have been guilty(nine years ago) of over driving on the first lap of the first run group with slicks and also did 360. Not a good feeling facing the guys who where once behind you. I also had taken A driving school or two at the time and actually had a Skip Barber instructor in the car providing private instruction at the time. Any one can ask a car to do more than its tires and road conditions will permit. An that is when can we get into trouble. Makes no difference what tires are on the car we can lose grip based on many variables. Just a few of them: tires pressure, age of tire, tire temperature, road surface conditions(wet, sandy, smooth, oily, dry, etc.) . Many condition road and tire combinations will allow the grip to be lost. Then add car balance and steering, throttle and brake input and we need a computer to control the outcome! I guess that means we must our computer(brain) to control our cars. When the car drives itself, then blame the car until then, look at the driver.
Cold tires or roads will have reduced grip. Soft racing slicks will lose grip easier when they are cold. I know I have been guilty(nine years ago) of over driving on the first lap of the first run group with slicks and also did 360. Not a good feeling facing the guys who where once behind you. I also had taken A driving school or two at the time and actually had a Skip Barber instructor in the car providing private instruction at the time. Any one can ask a car to do more than its tires and road conditions will permit. An that is when can we get into trouble. Makes no difference what tires are on the car we can lose grip based on many variables. Just a few of them: tires pressure, age of tire, tire temperature, road surface conditions(wet, sandy, smooth, oily, dry, etc.) . Many condition road and tire combinations will allow the grip to be lost. Then add car balance and steering, throttle and brake input and we need a computer to control the outcome! I guess that means we must our computer(brain) to control our cars. When the car drives itself, then blame the car until then, look at the driver.
mark777
Viper Owner
Fred,
Well said. While I will mainly look at my driving skills and awareness, would it make sense that lighter rims with say Michelin PS2's might have inreased my awareness of the road which might have signaled me sooner to adjust throttle?
I was told that a lighter rim and better tire combination should give the driver a better awareness of how the car is handling the road conditions...
Mark
Well said. While I will mainly look at my driving skills and awareness, would it make sense that lighter rims with say Michelin PS2's might have inreased my awareness of the road which might have signaled me sooner to adjust throttle?
I was told that a lighter rim and better tire combination should give the driver a better awareness of how the car is handling the road conditions...
Mark
Mark,
I been watching this thread for a couple of days now and I'm taking away a different message. A lot of guys have made great suggestions about sticker tires, lighter rims, and alignment, etc. but I'm left with the feeling that all it will do is put you at risk at a higher speed because you might become over confident before your skills have evolved. I say this, but I don't know how long you have had your car or how much time behind the wheel you've had. I'd be concerned that these upgrades will mask the cues your car gives you before it lets loose and now it would be just at greater speed. I have only had my car since April. I did some dumb things with cold tires in the begining. I put over 8000 miles on it this season. It has been out on the track 5 times so far. I have completed a Skip Barber high performance and 3 day racing class. Also an advanced car control clinic and a lapping day. The first couple of times on the track I thought wow this thing sticks like glue...but as my skills got a bit better, after the classes, I noticed the car to be more slippery on the track. What I have learned is that the car gives me a lot of information when driving. Much of it I never realized because I didn't know how to interpret it. As I'm learning more I am able to feel these things better and make faster, more correct adjustments.
The car is an amazing beast, I love all the raw ugly power and what it means to control. I have been having a blast learning as much as I can so I can live after each of my driving experiences. I hope you don't take anything I've written the wrong way. None of it is written with attitude, I'm only trying to convey my experiences and evolution with the car. Good luck with what you choose to do. Be safe.
Dave
I been watching this thread for a couple of days now and I'm taking away a different message. A lot of guys have made great suggestions about sticker tires, lighter rims, and alignment, etc. but I'm left with the feeling that all it will do is put you at risk at a higher speed because you might become over confident before your skills have evolved. I say this, but I don't know how long you have had your car or how much time behind the wheel you've had. I'd be concerned that these upgrades will mask the cues your car gives you before it lets loose and now it would be just at greater speed. I have only had my car since April. I did some dumb things with cold tires in the begining. I put over 8000 miles on it this season. It has been out on the track 5 times so far. I have completed a Skip Barber high performance and 3 day racing class. Also an advanced car control clinic and a lapping day. The first couple of times on the track I thought wow this thing sticks like glue...but as my skills got a bit better, after the classes, I noticed the car to be more slippery on the track. What I have learned is that the car gives me a lot of information when driving. Much of it I never realized because I didn't know how to interpret it. As I'm learning more I am able to feel these things better and make faster, more correct adjustments.
The car is an amazing beast, I love all the raw ugly power and what it means to control. I have been having a blast learning as much as I can so I can live after each of my driving experiences. I hope you don't take anything I've written the wrong way. None of it is written with attitude, I'm only trying to convey my experiences and evolution with the car. Good luck with what you choose to do. Be safe.
Dave
Fred(DrivingSchool)Kinder
Enthusiast
Mark,
Many will give you "expert" advise to improve handling. Take it with a grain of salt. Just look at a NASCAR race and the adjustments discussed because a car is to tight or to lose, or not tight or lose enough. There is not a perfect set-up for the car. The set-up is for the driver style.
Reducing unsprung weight is a goal for race cars but most of us could not tell the difference if or unsprung weight varied by 10 pounds.
IMHO driving at the limit of tire grip takes a ton of seat time to read the cars feed back and make correction to maintain car control. One of the best exercises for exercising eye hand seat feed back is a skid pad with water and an autocross. Practicing skid recovery illustrates how quickly the transition of grip to no grip can happen and how quickly we must take corrective action. Over correcting has its own set or problems that can be more violent than the original event because of spring energy rebound. Spending money on upgrades to a very well handling car is not the best investment. Take a few high performance driving schools and spend more time on the track. I will also add anyone who take one or driving schools and feel they are now high performance drivers are living in a dream world. Loss of control can be a reality for professional drivers, just watch a race. A little oil, radiator fluid, water, sand, etc can surprise the best.
Save your upgrade $$ and have fun at driving schools.
Many will give you "expert" advise to improve handling. Take it with a grain of salt. Just look at a NASCAR race and the adjustments discussed because a car is to tight or to lose, or not tight or lose enough. There is not a perfect set-up for the car. The set-up is for the driver style.
Reducing unsprung weight is a goal for race cars but most of us could not tell the difference if or unsprung weight varied by 10 pounds.
IMHO driving at the limit of tire grip takes a ton of seat time to read the cars feed back and make correction to maintain car control. One of the best exercises for exercising eye hand seat feed back is a skid pad with water and an autocross. Practicing skid recovery illustrates how quickly the transition of grip to no grip can happen and how quickly we must take corrective action. Over correcting has its own set or problems that can be more violent than the original event because of spring energy rebound. Spending money on upgrades to a very well handling car is not the best investment. Take a few high performance driving schools and spend more time on the track. I will also add anyone who take one or driving schools and feel they are now high performance drivers are living in a dream world. Loss of control can be a reality for professional drivers, just watch a race. A little oil, radiator fluid, water, sand, etc can surprise the best.
Save your upgrade $$ and have fun at driving schools.
I think your advice is sound Fred. Your comment is more to the point than my ramblings, but it was kind of what I was trying to get at. I've taken these classes which have been a tremendous help but in no way do I consider myself a performance driver. The classes have sensitized me to things I never noticed before and helped evolve my driving. I plan many more driving schools, viper days etc.
valentine_viper
Viper Owner
Having just switched myself to a much lighter wheel & tire combo (dropped 72 lbs from stock set-up), I can tell you firsthand that lighter wheels INCREASE the cars propensity to break traction under power. Less reciprocating weight means less power required to spin the rubber. Stickier rubber will help, but does not eliminate the problem as much as you might think. Overall performance and handling are definitely improved by dropping weight off the wheels and tires, but don't expect that to make the car safer. If anything, you may find the problem even worse.
At the drag strip, the car ran significantly quicker ETs and higher trap speeds, but also spun much stickier than stock tires almost all the way through second gear. This never happened with stock tires and wheels.
On an autocross course, I found that I had to be much more judicious with the throttle on corner exits than before. A smooth application of power is critical. One really nice benefit of lighter weight wheels and tires is even better breaking. Breaking distances are reduced considerably, but the sensitivity is also increased. Road feedback in general is better along with performance and handling, but in my opinion, this makes the car that much trickier to drive since the limits are now elevated from already pretty high levels.
The danger of driving a Viper is part of the fun for me. I have owned many high performance cars including some that exceded 600 rwhp, but I find the Viper to be the most challenging (and rewarding) car I have ever owned when it comes to driving the car near it's limits.
As other have already commented, there is no substitute for experience. Gather all you can before you really try to explore the cars limits.
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
This will make all the future mods even better and will save you time and money right now, http://www.woodhouse.com/viper/racelogic/default.htm. I agree that there a lot of ways to make you and the car better but this has been a great starting point to learn where the limits are safely working up to them. Remember though this is a traction aid, not a nanny.
Mark Jorgensen
Mark Jorgensen
