Why so many single car accidents?

Mark,
I didn't see the part where you said it was cold and wet in your story so I didn't know that played a factor.

However, it still seems like a problem in warm dry conditions.

About a month after I got the car, I was pulling onto an empty stretch of road and decided to get it a little sideways. Well it snapped sideways instead of the gradual kickout that I was expecting.
I was going about 10mph since I hadn't really gone anywhere, just spinning the tires. I corrected and let off the throttle.
Then it seemed to have a mind of its own and started fishtailing quickly a few times and slid across 2 lanes and onto the shoulder.
Brakes did not do anything.
Steering did not do anything.
It seemed to be gaining speed as it was doing this. You would think that going 10mph would be easily stopped by applying the brakes. There was very little forward momentum and I probably only traveled 40ft.
So what did I do wrong?
Why was it gaining speed and momentum when there was no throttle being applied?
Why did it seem to slide sideways off the road with no steering input?

BTW, the conditions were warm and dry

BOTTLEFED said:

Mark,
I didn't see the part where you said it was cold and wet in your story so I didn't know that played a factor.
However, it still seems like a problem in warm dry conditions.
About a month after I got the car, I was pulling onto an empty stretch of road and decided to get it a little sideways. Well it snapped sideways instead of the gradual kickout that I was expecting.
I was going about 10mph since I hadn't really gone anywhere, just spinning the tires. I corrected and let off the throttle.
Then it seemed to have a mind of its own and started fishtailing quickly a few times and slid across 2 lanes and onto the shoulder.
Brakes did not do anything.
Steering did not do anything.
It seemed to be gaining speed as it was doing this. You would think that going 10mph would be easily stopped by applying the brakes. There was very little forward momentum and I probably only traveled 40ft.
So what did I do wrong?
Why was it gaining speed and momentum when there was no throttle being applied?
Why did it seem to slide sideways off the road with no steering input?
BTW, the conditions were warm and dry

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Guess we need to know what you DID to correct...you never 'correct' first...you let off the throttle, keeping the steering wheel firm and straight...then correct AFTER letting off the throttle, is this what happened? You corrected FIRST, then let up? You'd fishtail for sure that way....and, nope the brakes would not help at that time...you just need to give it that second to correct itself...NEVER EVER over-correct, that's where LOTS go wrong...and end up in ditches. ~juli

I know what your saying about the feeling of it actually gaining speed. I have no answer for that, all I know is that it *****.

My thinking was right in line with you and Dave. Everytime I took that car out I drove it hard (prob why its totaled now, ) I enjoyed it most when I was rippin through the gears. On the other hand if I had some restraint Id probabley still have it.

I made out well with the insurance value (JonB good without involving JonB) and Ill get another come spring. Until then Ill be sitting the winter out re-thinking how to handle one of these.

Letting off the throttle can make the car go more sideways. The compression of that big V10 will work like an e-brake.

Juli,
Yes I did try to correct before I let off becasue I thougt I could catch it while still keeping the tires spinning.
With other cars (yes I know, the Viper is not other cars but other cars are all I have experience with) you can control the car while spinning the tires with small steering inputs.
So I tried to counter-steer and when the inputs were not working I decided to let off the throttle. That's when it went out of control.

Heysie said:

Letting off the throttle can make the car go more sideways. The compression of that big V10 will work like an e-brake.

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This is my theory as well.
I think being in 1st gear and getting the tires spinning is easy, but if you let off the engine slows so fast it is like locking up the rear tires and they just turn into skis.
I'm still trying to figure out why the front tires lose control though.

BOTTLEFED said:

Juli,
Yes I did try to correct before I let off becasue I thougt I could catch it while still keeping the tires spinning.
With other cars (yes I know, the Viper is not other cars but other cars are all I have experience with) you can control the car while spinning the tires with small steering inputs.
So I tried to counter-steer and when the inputs were not working I decided to let off the throttle. That's when it went out of control.

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Makes sense then, what had happened...the front tires would go out of control by STEERING...rears very easily can get away from you...SLIGHT correction may be required AFTER letting up throttle. JUST my experience, that's all...it's hard to explain really...you really just gotta PLAY with it in a SAFE environment...the huge parking lot. ~juli

I wrecked my 06 last spring, full throttle, cold tires, banging gears. Shifted into second and it was all over. Just prayed I didn't hit the house or tree that I squeezed by. What a reality check. I was feeling invincible until that time. In my case I realized when you do stupid thing, bad things usually happen. Any way I have 08 ordered and there is not a day that goes by that I do not regret my poor judgment and miss my car.

I think that something that is being missed in the discussion here is that the high lateral grip of the tires means that by the time that grip is lost and you are trying to correct, you are more committed than you would be with a lesser car that will reach that point sooner... no?

Same corner:
Viper, 60mph, 1g lateral force, lose grip and the back starts to come around.
Brand X, 50mph, .8g lateral force, lose grip and the back starts to come around.

Which one is easier to catch and correct?

KenH said:

I think that something that is being missed in the discussion here is that the high lateral grip of the tires means that by the time that grip is lost and you are trying to correct, you are more committed than you would be with a lesser car that will reach that point sooner... no?

Same corner:
Viper, 60mph, 1g lateral force, lose grip and the back starts to come around.
Brand X, 50mph, .8g lateral force, lose grip and the back starts to come around.

Which one is easier to catch and correct?

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Ken,
That may be true, however, Vipers are not the only cars taht have this kind of grip. There are plenty of cars that can grip as good or better (and they don't use traction-control either) that don't have the Viper's nasty tendancy to whip out of control upon loss of grip.
I think the old 911s used to do this because of a heavy rearend, but they have fixed that over the years with improved suspension and weight distribution.

I guess I have just answered my own questions over the course of this thread: Vipers handle great but have a terrible design flaw at their limit that cannot be countered.

I love this car, but its far from perfect

No design flaws. Go too fast and lose it. Vipers not only go fast, they handle the best and stop like stink. If you're going sideways they don't work properly, because they're not designed to handle sidways with spinning tires.

The only car I've managed to correct when the car was pointing 90 degrees from the direction of travel was my Viper, thank God! Any of the hundreds of other cars I've owned would have rolled in that situation ... Vipers don't roll.

I did write one off though. Hit two "puddles", better described as LAKES on the highway and spun donuts into the front of a Semi. Since I was spinning out of control I lost the front of the car when it went under the tractors pass tire. Wife and I didn't even get a scratch. Glad I was driving a Viper - we lived. Any other car would have been too high to have gone under the front of the Semi and we'd have been sitting the correct height to eat Diesel engine.

My 'new' ('01') Viper has tons more power and PS1's with twice the traction of Gen 3's! I'll never own another set of "run flats" again.

Even with PS1's it's difficult to do WOT under 70mph without wheelspin thanks to the Roe, but I won't let anyone else drive the car. Since the car went 10.5@139mph at the track with PS1's it is difficult, but it can be handled. I just won't side by side race on a 2 lane. That would be asking for trouble.

One thing I noticed with my 98GTS was that it slid to the right 80% of the time while spinning the tires. I suspect that the rear wheel alignment may have bee off. My '01 goes mostly straight and there is no "preferred direction" when the wheels are spinning. If your car slides one direction more than the other - get a wheel alignment.

Ted

Ted

big-n-italian said:

personally i find some of your questions confusing. a viper is just a car. how do you not wreck any other car? you drive it smartly on the road, and like a mad man on a track. what do you do when any car slides? can you drive any car in town safely squeeling tires? i dont think it matters if it is a viper or a yugo, IMO prob not.

is it just me not understanding what answer you are looking for? your questions might be best directed at a driving school, especially if you want specifics on spirited driving techniques.

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Agreed with Big. In fact, Big maybe did not go far enough in his comments, although he did point to them. People drive cars. There are some instances where other people will impact a Viper for some reason and you could be a great driver like D. Patrick and still not get out of it. For the most part, it is driver error.

PatentLaw said:

you could be a great driver like D. Patrick and still not get out of it. For the most part, it is driver error.

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I agree.

I remember reading an article where Valentino Balboni took out a brand new LP640 with a writer from R/T or Motor Trend and wreaked it. I think his comment was "game over". This guy has been lambos test driver since the late 60s-70s. Sometimes it just happens. Just be glad to walk away from it and that no one gets hurt.

I remember seeing a video of that! If Balboni doesn't know Lambos, nobody does! Going a little past the limits happens to everyone, sadly the Viper is one of those cars we all regret crossing that line with.

Regards,
Aaron

Most issues are traction and that leads to street temp and tire condition.
Year after year they become % more dangerous.

Next problem is ofcourse driver error, they can be a ****** to control around
corners.

In response to the original question, i.e., the title of the thread, I suspect the number of single car accidents are because the drivers are looking to have some fun, but away from others in order to minimize risk, and when the fun goes too far, accidents occur but at least tend to be single car ones because of the precautions taken.

These cars need sticky rubber......period.
Without good tires you will crash ........

My $.02

My ACR is like a wild bull. The same as that brutal black beast in the Corrida. It exudes the same lack of finesse and nasty temperment. It's not advisable to ride it like you stole it if you want to stay healthy.

That's why I love it

After a string of 911, I tryed the stab 'n steer trick once on the Viper.
Yara yara yara, now I have a bent rear rim that I need to have straightened.

The Spray is right. With good rubber the Viper is an awesome handling car. The stock Viper is not that fast and most people drive above their skill levels since the Viper is the fastest car they have ever owned. Hence the single car accident.

There are many people who regularly drive their Vipers hard and have no problems.