Am I the only one?

That understands and realizes that our SRT competition is going to awd and traction control for the high horsepower engines. Better gearing, traction control, and awd has led to cars w/ less than 100 hp than our beloved Vipers putting down 1/4 times much lower than our Vipers (Nissan GTR). We all know most races are stop light to stop light....thats where the bragging rights come from.

Am I the only one that thinks we might be entering a new age in high performance street cars? Am I the only one that is concerned that in 2-4 years we will see 500 hp awd Benzes and Audis w/ a 3:45 rear end that will kick a Vipers ass just due to grip and gearing?

Consider the new ZR1. Yes, many of us are having a great time bashing this car. This car is lighter than the SRT. Has better gearing than the SRT. Has traction control. Has MAJOR power at low rpm, which is ideal in 1/4 mile runs....

Are high hp rwd only cars becoming a thing of the past? Will our SRT's be living a nightmare in 2-4 years due to awd competition? Whaddya think?

I don't care if Ford starts putting out a 550HP Taurus. A Viper is still a Viper, and everything else is everything else.

That's how I see it.

Need1 said:

I don't care if Ford starts putting out a 550HP Taurus. A Viper is still a Viper, and everything else is everything else.

That's how I see it.

Click to expand...

I agree...to a certain extent. The Z06 de-throned us for a couple of years. The Viper image took a major hit. A Viper being a Viper will hold up only as long as it is formidable against our competition. That is the same thing Aston Martin owners and Jaguar owners said for years....and look what happened to their image.

Need1 said:

I don't care if Ford starts putting out a 550HP Taurus. A Viper is still a Viper, and everything else is everything else.

That's how I see it.

Click to expand...

black mamba1 said:

That is the same thing Aston Martin owners and Jaguar owners said for years....and look what happened to their image.

Click to expand...

Not only Aston and Jaguar...buggy makers said pretty much the same thing a few years back. But heck, they ended up doing pretty well, didn't they? I mean, the Amish still buy lots of buggies.

Yes, I also think that the Viper community needs to wake up. Sequential tranmissions, all wheel drive and electronic driver controls (even those tuned toward track applications) and the like are all mercilessly bashed (and their proponents soundly derided) despite the undeniable fact that such technology will make the car faster at the track and *gasp* safer.

The Formula One boys have all of the technology (actually, they either have it or would like to have it back if the rules didn't ban it). So if a technology makes a car go, stop or turn better, why on earth do so many of you people get your knees all jerking and start foaming at the mouth when technology is even mentioned? Do you like having your heads handed to you by cars that have less power (but more sophistication)?

ABS is probably the best example of all this. Before ABS, the Viper stopping distances were a joke. With ABS, braking immediately improved. And do any of you think that the current Viper would be one of the best stopping cars on the planet without ABS? Just out of curiosity, how many of you macho, elemental types out there have disconnected the ABS? It can't be that hard to do. Or even if it is, many spend thousands on other mods so why not the ABS disconnect mod...let's start putting Viper-ness back into our cars! If there are weenies out there who can't modulate the brake pedal, let 'em go buy a Corvette.

Okay, let the "All that stuff just doesn't belong on an elemental sports car" and "What's wrong with you, you wimp? Aren't you man enough to drive a real sports car?" begin. The easy reply to all that baloney is: The point of a sports car is to go, turn and stop fast. Preferably faster than any competitor. If something makes the car do that, then it's good stuff and should be on the car (after being balanced with what it costs, of course). And if the technology makes the F1 boys faster drivers, well, it seems like it might then be good enough for the rest of us. Or are all you naysayers out there already faster than Michael (yes, I know he's retired), Kimi, and the rest? Maybe I just need to go to Bondurant's so I lean to be a better driver than the F1 boys. Then I won't need all the wimpy aids to turn the fastest lap times.

black mamba1 said:

The Z06 de-throned us for a couple of years.

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Approached a level of parity perhaps, but not de-throned. Approximately the same HP, with the Z06 being lighter, while the Viper had more TQ and better braking.

slaughterj said:

Approached a level of parity perhaps, but not de-throned. Approximately the same HP, with the Z06 being lighter, while the Viper had more TQ and better braking.

Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking.

I could see the Gen V AWD with no TC.

Cue Chuck in 5...4...3...2...

Weight of ZR1 3350
Weight of Gen IV according to MSO ( Manufacturer's Statement of Origin ) - 3350

New ZR1 ----tons of Nanny devices
Viper -- driver skill and intelligence required.

Seems to me there will always be a place for this type of car. An old adage, but I often comment that driving a Viper is like going out with a gorgeous blonde* and finding out a few days later she is extremely intelligent. Alot more to handle , but emminently also more sustaining and much more fun in the long run!

* Feel free to substitute Redhead, brunette, etc.,ha.

Technology is great. TILL IT BREAKS...... I rememeber the first Las Vegas VOI. Dodge brought extra cars for the autocross and drag strip for anyone to drive. Those GTS's
were used lap after lap with stops only to re-fuel or lunch break. NO ISSUES.

Fast forward to a more recent supercar test where after the 1st round the Lambo-Merc had to drop-out due to over-heated clutch because of too many off idle launches with the AWD.

I feel all the awd cars with any hp will fall into this category at some point and hold on to your a... when the bill comes.

I will continue to buy overpowered,technically challenged,cartoonishly designed Dodge Dinosaurs,while others polish their trophy wives that they can't "sleep with".

ps: As long as they continue to get more powerful and obnoxious.

Y2K5SRT said:

Cue Chuck in 5...4...3...2...

Click to expand...

No word from Chuck yet?

Our dear friend must be on vacation or burning up a track!

Phil

At low speeds where high thrust is possible, the Viper will be at a disadvantage to cars with more weight over their drive wheels (911 - 70%, AWD - 100%). At least the Viper is better than the Corvette in this regard.

As speeds climb and thrust values fall to within the capabilities of the drive tires, the great balance and dynamic of a car like the Viper begins to shine vs. the AWD counterparts.

All this said, factory inclusion of a sophisticated, adjustable, and race-bred traction control system (a la RaceLogic) would be a welcome addition to this Viper owner and racer.

AWD would be nice, since it would improve traction and accel. while playing to both sides: those who want the electronic goodies and those who dont. TC and all that other electronic assist. should be an option on the next Gen Viper. If you want it, then its there. I am pretty sure alot of the folks bashing the electronics will be the first to order a new Viper with the electronic Assist. features.

On another note, the more electronic assist. features incorporated into the car, I feel the more problems it will have/reliability issues. Look at the vetts, porsches, etc., not nearly as reliable as the Viper.

I, for one, would like to see the next Gen Viper with AWD but I am pretty sure some tuners could incorporate AWD, TC, etc on the current Vipers for a pretty penny. All in all, knowing that you just archieved your best time at the drag strip or around the track with pure your own pure driving skills is more pleasing then to have "the cars TC and other electronic gadgets" assisting in those times.
Forgive me for spelling and gammar errors, I type then think afterwards.

Did you read about the "launch control" on the Nissan? The testers were afraid of breaking the car by using it too many times.

Just make sure you race your Viper from a roll and you should be fine.

DrDJ

Just as DRDJ stated about the "launch Control" on the GT-R. Reliability issues which the current Viper does not have to worry about.
By the way, love the color. One of my favorites.

Ray W said:

Technology is great. TILL IT BREAKS...... I rememeber the first Las Vegas VOI. Dodge brought extra cars for the autocross and drag strip for anyone to drive. Those GTS's
were used lap after lap with stops only to re-fuel or lunch break. NO ISSUES.

Fast forward to a more recent supercar test where after the 1st round the Lambo-Merc had to drop-out due to over-heated clutch because of too many off idle launches with the AWD.

I feel all the awd cars with any hp will fall into this category at some point and hold on to your a... when the bill comes.

I will continue to buy overpowered,technically challenged,cartoonishly designed Dodge Dinosaurs,while others polish their trophy wives that they can't "sleep with".

ps: As long as they continue to get more powerful and obnoxious.

Click to expand...

It is cool to open the hood and see an engine not a big plastic cover.

It seems that Dodge, when it comes to racing, is more interested in the road course than the drag strip which is fine by me. On the road course, RWD is the ticket.
That's not to say that there isn't a role for AWD somewhere... on the street,? in the snow?

It would certainly add complexity and weight, and don't forget cost.
For the street, traction control may have a place for most drivers. I know that when I had the first generation ZO6 I turned off the TC on the track for better times.

Perhaps, in the future, Dodge can add these things as options for those who don't mind the extra expense and weight. I, for one, prefer the Viper in its more "elemental" form and take pride in the fact that I can hustle it around quicker than most other drivers/cars with all these supposed technological advantages.

GTR WHAT?????

I honestly dont get the hype on this car..

1- It's ugly
2- It IS NOT FAST

WOZZERS...THE GTR has been trapping"GASP" 120-122 mph in the 1/4 mile..

Better go sell the gen3 Viper " oh wait thats right...Theve been trapping that since 2003" And the new 08's are 5 mph higher..

Seriusly for a car thats trapping low 120's ( again the same as a 2003 SRT10) They sure are trying to make it seem fast.

The truth is...That an STI and LS1 camaro could both go to the strip and run a low 13 dead stock...But the camaro would be 13.2 at 106 mph while the STI would be 13.2 at 101 mph...Seems pretty close right?

HELL NO...The camaro hit that 13.2 off of sheer power. The STI hit that 13.2 off of sheer launch...

Put the 13.2 camaro next to the 13.2 STI at a 70 mph roll and tell them to both hit it and stay on ot till 150 mph..

The STI will get dusted BAD...Why? because it dosent have a great power to weight ratio and as well most of it's 101 mph trap speed was made by it catupulting to 60 mph in 4.4 seconds

The GTR is exactly the same scenario

Youve got the GTR running 11.5 at 121 mph and the 08 SRT10 running 11.5 at 126 mph....But again theyre both hitting that mid 11 but in totally differant ways..

The Viper at 3400 pounds and 600 HP is doing i with sheer power. The GTR at 3800 pounds and 480 HP is doing it with a crazy 3.3 0-60 second catapult launch..

But them both side by side at 70 mph and tell them to go balls out till 150 mph..Without it's awd catapult and just sheer 3800 pounds and 480 HP the GTR will be left like it's standing still..

Even a gen3 will give a GTR a race to worry about from 70-150 mph as 3400 pounds and 500 HP is still significantly better than 3800 pounds and 480 HP..

Yes numbers sell cars..And the GTR's numbers are great. But atually hitting it at 60 mph to pass some body is what I care about in weekend use or saturday night roll races. And the GTR without it's catulput will pull about as hard as a stock C5Z06-GTS Viper on a 50-70 mph hit..

respectable for an import. But still not enough to get the respect it's been getting

AWD would be a mistake in my mind. My Jeep SRT8 is AWD but is biased 10% front, 90% rear. Kind of a waste of pounds if you ask me. As I drive it in the winter, it is pretty bad in the snow. The Traction Control is pretty goofy too; actually really goofy. I really do not like either one AWD or Traction Control. Our Porsche Cayenne Turbo is pheonominal in the snow and at hard acceleration and it is AWD though. Then again it is 3 times the price of my Jeep SRT8 so with these additional features comes supreme cost and added weight. Unless you are prepared to pay Ford GT costs for your Viper, just say no.

As far as I am concerned, the only new technologies the new Viper is missing is cruise control (come on, not every one tracks them) and a 6 or 7 speed sequential paddle shifter automatic transmission. Put them both in and Viper sales will jump. The Auto is not for me, but my wife, "yes".

BTW, call me a muscle car, gear head, dynosaur but I just can not get into the rice rocket era. A car with power should look like it should have power. Don't care how fast it is. Just not for me.

Ray W said:

Technology is great. TILL IT BREAKS......

Click to expand...

I don't detect any whining, do I? You may as well have said "Oh, sure, it'll make my car go, stop and turn faster. So what? It might break!" *Boo hoo* *Whine* *Snivel* *Whaaaaaaaaaaa!* By the way, technology doesn't equal unreliability.

ViperRay said:

It seems that Dodge, when it comes to racing, is more interested in the road course than the drag strip which is fine by me. On the road course, RWD is the ticket.

* * * *

As far as I am concerned, the only new technologies the new Viper is missing is....and a 6 or 7 speed sequential paddle shifter automatic transmission. Put them both in and Viper sales will jump. The Auto is not for me, but my wife, "yes".

BTW, call me a muscle car, gear head, dynosaur but I just can not get into the rice rocket era. A car with power should look like it should have power. Don't care how fast it is. Just not for me.

Click to expand...

Maybe someone should tell Audi, who were so successful in one of the American touring car series (World Challenge?) a few years back that they were weight penalized until it made 'em uncompetitive, that all wheel drive doesn't work on the race track. And were the dominating Audi R8s all wheel drive? Don't know on that. Maybe the rules didn't permit AWD.

Also, you "Don't care how fast it is" (?!) and you "just can not get into the rice rocket era"?! Ummmm...why are you driving a Viper? As for the rice rocket comment, apparently you equate technology with ricers. That would make everything from the Porsche Turbo to all manner of Ferraris, Lambos, etc., all loaded with the dreaded technology, rice rockets? You have a strange notion of rice rockets. Which brings me back to a comment made earlier: if the technology makes even F1 drivers faster, why is it a bad thing for us?

And an automatic on a Viper? Good god, man. You must be kidding. I want more technology on the Viper at least as much as anyone (see my original post in this thread), but an automatic?! That's not technology. That's gold chain stuff on this kind of car. (Although, I suppose, so long as it not on my Viper and it didn't take away developement dollars for something that made the car go, turn or stop faster, why should anyone care?)

Now, a sequential manual, that's different. I'm in for that. And sequential manuals usually even have an automatic mode, though that frequently works poorly I read. Getting back to Audi, their sequential manual works well in auto mode, not mention in manual mode. I read that, anyway. Don't know from first hand experience, though.

Vypr Phil said:

No word from Chuck yet?

Our dear friend must be on vacation or burning up a track!

Phil

Click to expand...

As the official Chuck stand-in on things nannytech (and SouthEast Asian women) related...

Vipers are a different breed of cars... an old breed where it is more about your driving skills rather than the skill of the computer programmer for your specific tc system. Don't get me wrong... those cars are great in their own right, but that's not what the Viper is about.

Much like the modern telephone. All the fancy tech that requires power, but when the power goes out for a long duration... it's all about the old style phone that just plugs in and works. Every house should have one, that's why they still make them... because tech is not the end all.

Phoenix SRT you know it all *****;

Having the latest technology in my life and believe me I have plenty from home automation to auto to communications, etc, it is not always better and yes things break, modules do not communicate, etc.

I made some very basic comments of I would like to see in the Viper. I am very familiar with Audi and the likes. AWD is not the answer to everything, neither is traction control. Man you do not take criticism very well. Dodge is Dodge and the TC in my Jeep SRT8 is a joke. Don't want it anywhere near my Viper. The performance AWD in the Jeep SRT8 is a joke and don't want that anywhere near me Viper either.

I know all about the latest automation, as the company I own has offices in Canada, US and Brazil with over 500 electrical engineers, and it is nothing but automation, controls, and power engineering consulting services to the industrial energy sector over the past 36 years. Being on the bleeding edge of technology is not always where you want to be. If you have worked with this stuff day in and day out, you would know what the hell I am talking about. I bet I have forgot more about automation and electronics then you will ever know.

And just as how you want to criticize the other Viper owners for not jumping on your latest technology band-wagon, you do the same with regards to cruise control and a sequential automatic transmission. Pick a side of the fence you want to be on.

Everyone on this board knows exactly what I mean by rice rockets. In case you did not know my Porsche is not from the East.

Grow up kid!

Warfang said:

As the official Chuck stand-in on things nannytech (and SouthEast Asian women) related...

Vipers are a different breed of cars... an old breed where it is more about your driving skills rather than the skill of the computer programmer for your specific tc system. Don't get me wrong... those cars are great in their own right, but that's not what the Viper is about.

Much like the modern telephone. All the fancy tech that requires power, but when the power goes out for a long duration... it's all about the old style phone that just plugs in and works. Every house should have one, that's why they still make them... because tech is not the end all.

Click to expand...

So I guess you'll just need to wave bye-bye as you see the otherwise equal, or even lesser, cars disappear into the distance in front of you. I guess that you'll find comfort in the fact that while the other car, nanny aids and all, is faster, you have the "more pure" car? One that is slower, but more "pure". Not me. I take little comfort in that.

Also, don't forget that driver aids can be tuned with an agressive (track) driving bias so that they don't kick in until the ham ****** driver does something that he's not going to recover anyway.

Do you really have a rotary dial telephone?

No whining here, just the truth. Race cars are not real world cars I've owned many.

Maybe it's my age or maturity but now I want to go as fast as I can without ever seeing a dealership for anything until the next best car comes along.

Dare we say that the most practical people in the automotive world own Vipers. They can afford to pay more but know they won't get more.

Phoenix SRT said:

And an automatic on a Viper? Good god, man. You must be kidding. I want more technology on the Viper at least as much as anyone (see my original post in this thread), but an automatic?! That's not technology. That's gold chain stuff on this kind of car. (Although, I suppose, so long as it not on my Viper and it didn't take away developement dollars for something that made the car go, turn or stop faster, why should anyone care?)

Click to expand...

Yeah, that was a little harsh. Sorry about that. But, in fairness, I did allow for automatics sometimes. And, I note that my comments about a slush box in a Viper were far more mild than countless comments in countless other threads I've read where someone dared to even mention an auto trans in a Viper. Still, the comment was a bit harsh.

Phoenix SRT said:

So I guess you'll just need to wave bye-bye as you see the otherwise equal, or even lesser, cars disappear into the distance in front of you. I guess that you'll find comfort in the fact that while the other car, nanny aids and all, is faster, you have the "more pure" car? One that is slower, but more "pure". Not me. I take little comfort in that.

Also, don't forget that driver aids can be tuned with an agressive (track) driving bias so that they don't kick in until the ham ****** driver does something that he's not going to recover anyway.

Do you really have a rotary dial telephone?

Click to expand...

Who cares if less than 1% of the cars on the planet can go faster than yours? Are you so insecure about your manhood that you need the fastest car in the world? Sorry to tell you... it's a moving target. NO ONE CAN RETAIN THAT TITLE FOR LONG, and I doubt you will ever have enough money to play that game.

I find comfort that I am improving my driving skills while the people driving nannied cars use tech as a crutch. It's a personal choice. You want nanny crap? Go buy a car with it. You absolutely want the Viper "look"? Get a body kit, or look for aftermarket/custom solutions. No one is forcing you to own a Viper.

I guess you have no idea that there are non-powered phones that DON'T use rotary dial. Don't be an idiot... your lack of a coherent argument demeans all of us.

Twister said:

GTR WHAT?????

I honestly dont get the hype on this car..

1- It's ugly
2- It IS NOT FAST
............................

Click to expand...

Full post is informative, interesting read but ...... I believe some of the GTR's hype is related to its expected price ($60K) for that performance.

Why don't some of you guys just buy a Vett and be done with it? Like the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. The Vett is your car. The Z06 is terrific. Buy one. Buy two, one for the street and one for the track (the track that so many of you driver nanny lovers spend so much time at. ).

When the Viper goes electronic nanny (just like the Vett and all the other nanny cars you have to chose from) I will have no more use for it.

BTW the reason Vipers aren't whopping butt in every class is because of rules restricting the Viper, not because other cars have nannies and AWD. Some of you should take time between all the hours you spend as a road race enthusiast and do a little research.

That last line has a bit of sarcasm in it.

This thead is almost identical to one earlier in the yearon the Ducati.MS website how desmodromic valve actuation was antiquated being designed in the 60 s and newer tech. springs were the future and Ducati was history,blah blah blah,and then as they won race after race in Moto GP the **** desperately tried pneumatic valve act. to no avail (Stoner ult. winning overall)the naysayers (ironically on the Ducati sites) were silenced for a while. Isn t it interesting they aren t on the Yamaha, Corvette, etc sites, but come here thinking we will listen.

Chuck 98 RT/10 said:

Why don't some of you guys just buy a Vett and be done with it? Like the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it. The Vett is your car. The Z06 is terrific. Buy one. Buy two, one for the street and one for the track (the track that so many of you driver nanny lovers spend so much time at. ).

When the Viper goes electronic nanny (just like the Vett and all the other nanny cars you have to chose from) I will have no more use for it.

BTW the reason Vipers aren't whopping butt in every class is because of rules restricting the Viper, not because other cars have nannies and AWD. Some of you should take time between all the hours you spend as a road race enthusiast and do a little research.

That last line has a bit of sarcasm in it.

Click to expand...

Finally you show up, we had to resort to designated hitters this time.

Lee00blacksilverGTS said:

Finally you show up, we had to resort to designated hitters this time.

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They're doing well.