Are TT Vipers time-bombs?

Alexarz · Dec 23, 2008

From what I heard, Bradenton turned out to be a disaster with breakdowns of all sorts. I was planning on having my '06 twin turbocharged but after hearing about all the broken down Vipers at this event, I am beginning to wonder if twin turbo Vipers are a bit too much. The last thing I want to do is turn my car into an unreliable sh1tpile on wheels. Do any of you have any fairly long term experience with Underground, Heffner, etc. turbo Vipers and knowledge of their reliability?

LPDesRoche · Dec 23, 2008

If you don't drag race on sticky tires you will probably never break anything. On the other hand if you drag race your bone stock car on sticky tires you will break the same parts.

F8L SNK · Dec 23, 2008

The more power you make, the more the probability of breaking is. I know that is obvious, but it is worth saying.

I have had GREAT reliability out of my TT SRT. I have had to change a turbo due to a return line being installed to high in the oil pan (my fault as I did the install) but that is it.

I replaced the transmission and nothing was wrong and I had tons of track time on the stock one. If you run slick, expect to break stuff. Run drag radials and you will have a car that lasts pretty well.

mjorgensen Woodhouse · Dec 24, 2008

Every motor is like a time bomb given enough time and abuse. I always explain that the higher you go in HP the shorter the fuse can be. Race car engines are the most advanced engines out there and they blow also. This is why they generally go through them after each race if allowed. Everything has a finite life span and the more it is stressed the shorter that time. you have to plan for this expense if you want the power.

RedEnuf93 · Dec 24, 2008

I agree...

Stock = Long fuse on the bomb
Modified = shorter fuse on the bomb
High Boost = No fuse, pull ring missing from handgrenade....

They are all bombs, I built couple SB Chevys in ONE summer.... all grenated one way or the other, which brings out the other aspect... The BUILDER.

There is no life insurance on boosted motors, with good builder and great care, it works well on short term. People do not built 1000+HP motors to cruise in parades and drive 350.000 miles with 38+MPG.

repiv · Dec 24, 2008

Alexarz said:
From what I heard, Bradenton turned out to be a disaster with breakdowns of all sorts. I was planning on having my '06 twin turbocharged but after hearing about all the broken down Vipers at this event, I am beginning to wonder if twin turbo Vipers are a bit too much. The last thing I want to do is turn my car into an unreliable sh1tpile on wheels. Do any of you have any fairly long term experience with Underground, Heffner, etc. turbo Vipers and knowledge of their reliability?

the yellow underground car broker 1st gear, nothing in the engine got hurt.

killy martin broke a half shaft, again, not engine

Dads Toy · Dec 24, 2008

Can I ask why you would want twin turbos? You have 500hp right now. If you are going to race alot I can understand it. If its for the cool factor, not sure I would waste the money or car. 500hp is a ton of power and more than 99% of the people need. I built a 508hp Trans Am from a brand new TA. it lasted 2 years because of the tune. I did race mine though and I am in the process of building another TA for the track that will have around 800hp when I am done. It will not be driven on the streets. These Vipers have way more power than most people can even use stock. If you want to enjoy your car just leave the motor as is from the factory and add some suspension pieces for better handleing and maybe a nice set of gears and go enjoy a fast cool car.

cheryl mccally · Dec 24, 2008

Like all the good drivers say, the most effective tuning adjustments are made on the nut behind the wheel. It's taken me awhile to fully comprehend all the implications in that simple statement but it's sooo true! There are lots of good things that can be done to make a car better but the guy driving it is still #1 in who wins or loses.

Canyon707 · Dec 24, 2008

Dads Toy said:
Can I ask why you would want twin turbos? You have 500hp right now. If you are going to race alot I can understand it. If its for the cool factor, not sure I would waste the money or car. 500hp is a ton of power and more than 99% of the people need. I built a 508hp Trans Am from a brand new TA. it lasted 2 years because of the tune. I did race mine though and I am in the process of building another TA for the track that will have around 800hp when I am done. It will not be driven on the streets. These Vipers have way more power than most people can even use stock. If you want to enjoy your car just leave the motor as is from the factory and add some suspension pieces for better handleing and maybe a nice set of gears and go enjoy a fast cool car.

I hear you loud and clear. It must be a guy thing for sure. I wanted to go with a Paxton but, Jon talked me out of it for that exact reason. I ended up changing gears, wheels and tires etc. I enjoy this car and really can't afford to blow it up. As I see it the Viper could use lots of things other than more HP. Happy Holidays to all.

gb66gth · Dec 24, 2008

Yup, work on the driver. It's the most important element, and rarely breaks down!

MbnViper · Dec 24, 2008

no problems here with two modified vipers, but im not a drag racer so thats why i guess.

i upgraded almost everything and rebuilt my TT viper transmission to hold the massive rwtq (1200rwtq+).

i guess a good shop and parts along with reasonable driving will make it a happy experience.

ROCKET62 · Dec 24, 2008

Similar question - what about a low boost TT? Paolo C. has a low boost TT for Gen 2's and he is supposedly looking to expand this to the Gen 3. I know that Paxton would be an option - but for whatever reason - I dont want to go that route. Something about the fuel pump setup/disk FCM does not fit my eye. Roe might be an option if/when he comes out with his.

I do buy into the argument that a turbo set-up put's less strain on the engine because of the parasitic loss required to spin the supercharger. Downside is managing the extra heat generated by the turbos.

PJJP · Dec 24, 2008

TT = much joy!

MADDMAXS57 · Dec 24, 2008

The main car in question was supercharged, not TT. Reading the post it may have been related to over revving, but it sounded like the owner wanted to set a record and he did. Money well spent, time enjoyed doing what he likes, racing his car.

Boosted cars can be dead reliable built with conservative goals in mind. Plenty of fuel, moderate boost, and solid tuning can make the motors reliable. If that formula did not work then you would not see cars like the ZR1 which is built with those parameters in mind.

If you enjoy boost, go for it! You can build/have a car built boosted that will last, just lower your expectations a little.

BTW, I have a Heffner Paxton Novi 2000 820HP/770 Trq since Jul 2004 and Never a problem. Have run autocross, VIR, and Drag Strip and the car performs flawlessly. Went with mild boost numbers (11lbs) and a little less performance for more reliability.

You also get what you pay for with boosted engines.

Just my humble opine.

plumcrazy · Dec 25, 2008

yes its a ticking time bomb. but depending on who builds AND TUNED this bomb is going to tell you how long its fuse is....

underground racing gives a warranty on the TT's and the motor for a certain amount of time and to my knowledge, nobody else does that. call kevin and ask him.

of course im gonna throw DLM in the hat as his stuff is always built for max reliability. he just doesnt like to push anything and would rather give you a perfectly tuned car with a few less ponies and on these built motor TT's and S/C's....you can afford a few less.

i have just over 5k miles on mine since DLM tuned it for me (in july of this year) and i run it HARD and OFTEN and have had ZERO problems or complaints. get in, turn the key,drive fast.....its simple.

RichieSRT10 · Dec 25, 2008

I currently have over 34,000 miles on my DLM 900rwhp Viper. I am not burning any oil and the car runs as strong today as it did when it was new. There are several good tuners out there with excellent track records. I am friends with Heffner and many others. When it comes time to upgrade or do another car I would only consider one tuner. DLM is more then a tuner he is a mentor to the entire community

Rocket62-DLM makes a 3 pump in tank system that is flawless and affordable.

Art 138 · Dec 25, 2008

Based on previous threads a standard Paxton tune is pretty reliable and has had minimal impact on motor deterioration- particulary as in the case of Richie SRT10 when built by a reliable tuner.......

Nine Ball · Dec 25, 2008

Alex, are you planning on modifying the engine to go along with the twins? If not, the general consensus says that ~700 rwhp is considered the max "safe" level for the SRT-10 engine while stock. You can get there pretty easily with a Paxton and a tune. While not as exotic or cool as a set of twins on a Viper, the systems have proven to work well.

However, if you are willing to dig into the engine and add forged internals, then yes by all means go with the twins. I'd like to eventually sell my Paxton and push my car to the 1,000 rwhp mark just because I can. Do I need it? Hell no, does anyone here need a Viper either? Nope. These cars are toys, might as well have some fun with them. They tend not to break if you aren't drag racing them.

I'm sorry, but a stock SRT-10 with 500 hp is slow. The cars weigh too much and are far to exotic looking to run so slow. Bottom 12s stock just doesn't cut it in 2009, it was blazing fast back in 2003. Quite a few less exotic cars run 11s stock nowadays. The 2008 Viper is a definite improvement for stock, but the pre-08 cars are getting dated performance-wise.

Alexarz · Dec 25, 2008

Nine Ball said:
I'm sorry, but a stock SRT-10 with 500 hp is slow. The cars weigh too much and are far to exotic looking to run so slow. Bottom 12s stock just doesn't cut it in 2009, it was blazing fast back in 2003. Quite a few less exotic cars run 11s stock nowadays. The 2008 Viper is a definite improvement for stock, but the pre-08 cars are getting dated performance-wise.

I agree, NineBall. They look too good to be getting beat by some ricers or Z06 vettes. I was planning on building the motor in order to achieve reliability. There is a guy near my house who has a turbo GTS that he put together and had a local machine shop build his motor. They told me that they would build my Viper motor w/ headwork for 4-5k. His Viper is putting down over 1300rwhp on race gas. With Paulo's 67mm turbo kit selling for 13k, I could conceivably do it for barely over 20k. I could also add Stryker heads to lower the boost necessary to achieve higher hp. 900 rwhp would suit my needs fine and would not require any cutting of the frame with the 67mm turbos. I was previously considering UG or Heffner but it would cost another 25k and that is a decent chunk of money. Several members mentioned supercharger systems. I am not even considering a supercharger.

plumcrazy · Dec 25, 2008

4-5K for a built viper motor ? NO DAMN WAY. My pistons and rods cost that much alone almost...

run for the hills at those prices. trust me, you get what you pay for. there is a HUGE difference in parts and more so in labor/tuning. double check me, but i think at 12k paolo's kit is minus any real fuel system.

that same guy who is doing the $4-5K motor is gonna tune your TT viper ?

1BADGTS · Dec 25, 2008

plumcrazy said:
4-5K for a built viper motor ? NO DAMN WAY. My pistons and rods cost that much alone almost...

run for the hills at those prices. trust me, you get what you pay for. there is a HUGE difference in parts and more so in labor/tuning. double check me, but i think at 12k paolo's kit is minus any real fuel system.

that same guy who is doing the $4-5K motor is gonna tune your TT viper ?

Exactly correct to run in the 1000rwhp level you probably have 15 grand in motor parts plus(engine and fuel )plus the power adder parts to do it correctly .(Hell in dyno time alone you probably have a day or so )

Disturbed · Dec 25, 2008

The longest fuse is N/A. However, even that's not true. I had a 100% stock motor bomb on me after 10kmi.

When it comes to boosted motors, the better the design, the better the tune keeping the boost to 10-12psi, will keep the motor in full working order. Running synthetic oil is also a good idea.

No matter what, for you Alex, you'll be fine. A hwy roll-ons (50-150)is easy on the motor. 5th gear is the issue...but I hear a fix is on the way. It's cold starts that will kill it a motor setup. Drag slicks will bust the drive train.

96-RT10 Supercharged · Dec 26, 2008

I've put just about 50k I think on my Paxton, running low boost 10-11psi. Lots of track work and daily driving. As it's been said up top. It's all about how you treat it. Don't over rev it much and don't push it when you know you shouldn't. Also I think having a good shop is vital. I've had my car at DC Performance since day one and it's still on the road today

2MANYTOYS · Dec 26, 2008

Alexarz said:
I agree, NineBall. They look too good to be getting beat by some ricers or Z06 vettes. I was planning on building the motor in order to achieve reliability. There is a guy near my house who has a turbo GTS that he put together and had a local machine shop build his motor. They told me that they would build my Viper motor w/ headwork for 4-5k. His Viper is putting down over 1300rwhp on race gas. With Paulo's 67mm turbo kit selling for 13k, I could conceivably do it for barely over 20k. I could also add Stryker heads to lower the boost necessary to achieve higher hp. 900 rwhp would suit my needs fine and would not require any cutting of the frame with the 67mm turbos. I was previously considering UG or Heffner but it would cost another 25k and that is a decent chunk of money. Several members mentioned supercharger systems. I am not even considering a supercharger.

I love my turbo car. I've had 3 supercharged vipers and 1 twin turbo. I like both. No way I will ever own a stock Viper again. They are way to slow.

Dads Toy · Dec 26, 2008

I think all of the aftermarket power adders are fairly safe. The tune to me is the big issue if you bought/installed all other components. My TA blew up after 2 years and it did not have any power adders. It was a heads/cam/headers/high compression with what turned out to be a bad tune. It was a ticking time bomb for me.

Alexarz · Dec 26, 2008

plumcrazy said:
4-5K for a built viper motor ? NO DAMN WAY. My pistons and rods cost that much alone almost...

run for the hills at those prices. trust me, you get what you pay for. there is a HUGE difference in parts and more so in labor/tuning. double check me, but i think at 12k paolo's kit is minus any real fuel system.

that same guy who is doing the $4-5K motor is gonna tune your TT viper ?

5k for pistons and rods? LOL. You got robbed but the problem is that lots of people get robbed on Viper parts. Disturbed paid 6.5K for a short block with new forged pistons, rods, crank, main bearings, etc. It included the block as well. These guys that quoted me already built a Viper motor and it is running fine with over 1300rwhp.

Alexarz · Dec 26, 2008

1BADGTS said:
Exactly correct to run in the 1000rwhp level you probably have 15 grand in motor parts plus(engine and fuel )plus the power adder parts to do it correctly .(Hell in dyno time alone you probably have a day or so )

LOL!! 15k in motor parts?? Who is selling solid gold pistons and rods? Geez. I paid about 3k for a brand new 454 11:1 big block Chevy with forged pistons, rods, etc., from the oil pan to the intake manifold. I swapped out the heads for aftermarket aluminum ones, switched to a solid roller cam, roller rockers, stud girdles, aluminum flywheel, billet aluminum bellhousing, etc. and would kick the ever living snot out of any stock Viper. The total cost for the engine even after all the mods, was under 6k. Of course it is not a Viper motor; big deal, it has 2 fewer cylinders. I refuse to get robbed on Viper parts just because it is a Viper.

ViperTony · Dec 26, 2008

plumcrazy said:
4-5K for a built viper motor ? NO DAMN WAY. My pistons and rods cost that much alone almost...

run for the hills at those prices. trust me, you get what you pay for. there is a HUGE difference in parts and more so in labor/tuning. double check me, but i think at 12k paolo's kit is minus any real fuel system.

that same guy who is doing the $4-5K motor is gonna tune your TT viper ?

Heck...my quote for a built Viper motor was $8K without any fuel system. But you get what you pay for.

Alexarz · Dec 26, 2008

ViperTony said:
Heck...my quote for a built Viper motor was $8K without any fuel system. But you get what you pay for.

4-5k was a motor build with pistons, rods, rings, main bearings, etc. and headwork. Billet mains would be more.

1BADGTS · Dec 26, 2008

Alexarz said:
LOL!! 15k in motor parts?? Who is selling solid gold pistons and rods? Geez. I paid about 3k for a brand new 454 11:1 big block Chevy with forged pistons, rods, etc., from the oil pan to the intake manifold. I swapped out the heads for aftermarket aluminum ones, switched to a solid roller cam, roller rockers, stud girdles, aluminum flywheel, billet aluminum bellhousing, etc. and would kick the ever living snot out of any stock Viper. The total cost for the engine even after all the mods, was under 6k. Of course it is not a Viper motor; big deal, it has 2 fewer cylinders. I refuse to get robbed on Viper parts just because it is a Viper.

First of all its not a BB CHEVY(million people make parts for) .Dealer cost on a full gasket bearing set is 1100.00 Any good quality rod(Crower ,Carillo) is going to cost you at least (125 per rod jobber price- provided you can get them at jobber )Good quality pistons (CP or JE )in a standard bore size are at least 1000.00 plus a few hundred for rings .From there you have blueprinting and balencing the rotating assembly.The above prices are WHOLESALE and parts all being top quality (-handle at least 1000 plus hp.)You say you got an engine done for 6 grand -list the SPECIFIC PARTS used and guarantee it was no where near the quality iam talking about.

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