Considerably. ~1500 bucks will get you all of the SCT items, a PCM Scanning tool, AND a wideband... everything you need to tune. Compare that to 3000+ for AEM, not including the wiring harness for G3.
Post your Upgraded Fuel system
- Thread starter BOTTLEFED
- Start date
Considerably. ~1500 bucks will get you all of the SCT items, a PCM Scanning tool, AND a wideband... everything you need to tune. Compare that to 3000+ for AEM, not including the wiring harness for G3.
Bob D
Enthusiast
I run 2 Walbro 255's and an AEM. Something you can do with a standalone is control the 2nd pump with a separate output so it's not running all the time. I have mine setup to turn on at -2.0 load. You can't tell on the data logs when it comes on.
Finally I can get some pictures up...
Dual Pumped:
-Pump 1: OEM Pump in OEM Basket, Continuous Duty
-Pump 2: Weldon D2345, Pulse Width Modulated Controlled [Ramps in after ~500 horsepower is surpassed, Roughly calculated 100% duty cycle at the 1000rwhp mark]
-Total Flow Capability 1100lph, or 300gph [2500 Horsepower at 55PSI]
[Note original Weldon pump shown in last picture is gone, D2345 as shown in middle picture replaced it long ago]
Hose Sizing:
-3/8 Feed For OEM Pump
-10AN Feed for Weldon D2345
-Merged in -10/-8/-8 Y-Block, with 3/8 plumbed in
-Dual -8AN Rail Feed
-Dual -6AN Rail to Regulator, -8AN return
[Note; While normally a -10AN would be ideal on the return side for this setup, the PWM function prevents excessive fuel return. Tested 2 PSI back-pressure at full flow anyway]
Regulation:
-OEM Dead-Head regulator in basket @ 55PSI
-Weldon Flow-Through return regulator at manifold, boost referenced
-Weldon set @ 60PSI, no return when OEM Reg is dead-heading, no fuel temp increase in basket
-Both pumps have one way valves, neither can backflow
-Weldon takes over for OEM pump once its capability is surpassed, and one way valves prevent back-flow and allow boost reference.
Fuel Rails & Injectors:
-Aluminum rails w/pressure ports & damped gauge
-RC Engineering 1000cc Low Impedance Injectors
-AEM Peak & Hold Injector Driver
-SCT Flash Tuning
The idea was to build a fuel system with no downside. Quiet, reliable, mostly invisible or good looking otherwise, unaffected by tank levels, and unaffected by temperature... that could handle ANYTHING a Viper has done on Pump Gas to date.
OK.... so maybe its just a *little* more than the typical setup, LOL!
Dual Pumped:
-Pump 1: OEM Pump in OEM Basket, Continuous Duty
-Pump 2: Weldon D2345, Pulse Width Modulated Controlled [Ramps in after ~500 horsepower is surpassed, Roughly calculated 100% duty cycle at the 1000rwhp mark]
-Total Flow Capability 1100lph, or 300gph [2500 Horsepower at 55PSI]
[Note original Weldon pump shown in last picture is gone, D2345 as shown in middle picture replaced it long ago]
Hose Sizing:
-3/8 Feed For OEM Pump
-10AN Feed for Weldon D2345
-Merged in -10/-8/-8 Y-Block, with 3/8 plumbed in
-Dual -8AN Rail Feed
-Dual -6AN Rail to Regulator, -8AN return
[Note; While normally a -10AN would be ideal on the return side for this setup, the PWM function prevents excessive fuel return. Tested 2 PSI back-pressure at full flow anyway]
Regulation:
-OEM Dead-Head regulator in basket @ 55PSI
-Weldon Flow-Through return regulator at manifold, boost referenced
-Weldon set @ 60PSI, no return when OEM Reg is dead-heading, no fuel temp increase in basket
-Both pumps have one way valves, neither can backflow
-Weldon takes over for OEM pump once its capability is surpassed, and one way valves prevent back-flow and allow boost reference.
Fuel Rails & Injectors:
-Aluminum rails w/pressure ports & damped gauge
-RC Engineering 1000cc Low Impedance Injectors
-AEM Peak & Hold Injector Driver
-SCT Flash Tuning
The idea was to build a fuel system with no downside. Quiet, reliable, mostly invisible or good looking otherwise, unaffected by tank levels, and unaffected by temperature... that could handle ANYTHING a Viper has done on Pump Gas to date.
OK.... so maybe its just a *little* more than the typical setup, LOL!
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Russ M
Enthusiast
What most people dont understand is that the AEM unit is by far the bargain out of all the mentioned units. And the only reason some people claim the motec is better is because they just don't know any better or are tuners that prefer to sell you the motec at 4x the price of the AEM unit without nearly as many built in features.
An AEM unit at roughly $2500 gives you build in dual wide band sensors and a controller for them, boost control, traction control and many many other features which are just too numerous to mention. The only thing an SCT tune can give you that the AEM cant is the ability for emission testing if your car is lo lightly modded in both visual and power aspects that no one notices the mods.
The other problem is finding a tuner for the SCT stuff or the Vec, while AEM goes out of its way to provide you with competent tuners offering free courses and such, I don't think any of these other manufacturers do.
An AEM unit at roughly $2500 gives you build in dual wide band sensors and a controller for them, boost control, traction control and many many other features which are just too numerous to mention. The only thing an SCT tune can give you that the AEM cant is the ability for emission testing if your car is lo lightly modded in both visual and power aspects that no one notices the mods.
The other problem is finding a tuner for the SCT stuff or the Vec, while AEM goes out of its way to provide you with competent tuners offering free courses and such, I don't think any of these other manufacturers do.
I am not going to argue the value of the AEM against the Motec, that's a given. However, you do get what you pay for. Top of the line controllers have top of the line price tags.
I still say it comes down to application. If you are tuning a car that is NA, or just hate traction control as many of us do, etc, etc... the AEM doesn't have any USABLE features to justify twice the price or more over the SCT packages. Wideband is nice, but you dont use it much if the car is already tuned. Traction control is nice, if you like it. Boost control is nice... if you are boosted. Fault finding is ALWAYS nice. OEM quality is ALWAYS nice. Not having to deal with any installation is ALWAYS nice. Again, application. One is better for some things, the other is better for others. But overall, they encompass about the same market share, and are both capable of getting a car to run perfectly if it is within their capability. It all depends what you are looking for.
I sell both, make money off both, and tune both... but I wouldn't cram an AEM down 90% of customers throats, its just not as good of a fit as the SCT is in many cases, even though the AEM could do the job as well. I think the big "thing" here is that people are rating a product by "how many gizmos" it has... bad idea. Gizmos that you wont use don't make one system better than the other- do they? Rate a product based on how well it can get your engine to run given your application. After that, you need to select on which gizmos you NEED, and find out which one fits your needs the best.
I could sell you a thousand tires for your car at 199 bucks each, that's one HELL of a bargain! But does it make sense?
Only if you have a position at Conner Ave... that would be the right application!
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well said dan.
dansauto
Enthusiast
yes I agree but only because DLM does not use the split second like most tuners, he runs a seperate set of injectors in line with the stock fuel system. To use the split second to control a entire new fuel system is limited to what I said before (personal experiance and talking with Heffner) I really liked the split second. it was easy to install and easy to tune. You only have one set of parameters to adjust. It was limited however because you are tricking the PCM by altering the signal of the MAP sensor. Your limited to that sensors output of 5Volts. The VEC2 was much more complicated, you control the pulse of the injectors. I got a decent tune, but I am sure a more qualified tuner could have gotten more Hp out of my car with the VEC2 than I did.
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
so lets see your setup Dan
so lets see your setup Dan
Which Dan...? Mine is posted above...
dansauto
Enthusiast
so lets see your setup Dan
my old set up pics are in my gallery on the v-alley site. I had a stock canister, with stock pump and a 255, both out into a Y block and 10AN to the rails, out of the rails into a pressure reg then back to the tank with a 6an. I used 50# injectors and modified the canister
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
the other Dan
FATHERFORD
Enthusiast
Ok so I'm curious now.
I have a new vec 3 waiting to be installed on my GTS with bolt ons. I have wet nitrous kit on it with a stand alone fuel system, and trick V and P gauge controllers connected to a FJO wideband.
Would it be better for me to just sell the vec 3 and just do the SCT? Or do a combo of both?
I would really like to have an n/a tune and a nitrous tune.
I have a new vec 3 waiting to be installed on my GTS with bolt ons. I have wet nitrous kit on it with a stand alone fuel system, and trick V and P gauge controllers connected to a FJO wideband.
Would it be better for me to just sell the vec 3 and just do the SCT? Or do a combo of both?
I would really like to have an n/a tune and a nitrous tune.
vipzilla
Viper Owner
fuel is key
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
Lets revive this thread a little since we got off course with the SCT discussion.
My plans for upping the boost on my Roe and adding some nitrous (as discussed in this thread http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/630480-project-bullet-proof-v-10-a.html) will call for more fuel.
Thanks to the guys that have posted on here with their setups, I have come up with a setup I think will work for my plans.
The simple, single Walbro replacement using stock fuel lines will be sufficient for my 10#, according to most on here. However, the nitrous will need extra fuel and I don't think the Walbro will be able to flow enough to handle the extra fuel supply for the fuel solenoid.
Others on here have stated the only way to go is dual Walbros running to upgraded SS braided lines and a regulated return-style system. This can be expensive and more work to setup. It also seems overkill for what I need at the moment.
So here is the easiest, most cost-effective solution I can think of.
Dual OEM pumps, run in parallel (both electrically and mechanically). These should be easy and cheap to find since so many upgrade to the Walbro. I will continue to run the BAP, but at a low setting, just for some extra pressure if/when needed. Tee them together at the easiest, closest possible point.
-10AN line to a filter under the car, preferably in a more convenient location than stock. More -10 up to the fuel rails.
The -10 will tee off and each will be fitted to the rear of the Roe fuel rails.
The Roe fuel lines on the front of the rails will be used to make up the regulator system. A simple Aeromoitve adjustable FPR will accept both lines in, and the stock fuel line will be connected as the return.
This setup should take the least amount of work and the least amount of fittings and extra line to run to the front of the car. I hope it will be clean and easy to install. I believe this setup should handle the 10# Roe fuel needs just fine, and when needed, the extra flow for the wet nitrous system.
Please let me know what you guys think.
My plans for upping the boost on my Roe and adding some nitrous (as discussed in this thread http://forums.viperclub.org/rt-10-gts-discussions/630480-project-bullet-proof-v-10-a.html) will call for more fuel.
Thanks to the guys that have posted on here with their setups, I have come up with a setup I think will work for my plans.
The simple, single Walbro replacement using stock fuel lines will be sufficient for my 10#, according to most on here. However, the nitrous will need extra fuel and I don't think the Walbro will be able to flow enough to handle the extra fuel supply for the fuel solenoid.
Others on here have stated the only way to go is dual Walbros running to upgraded SS braided lines and a regulated return-style system. This can be expensive and more work to setup. It also seems overkill for what I need at the moment.
So here is the easiest, most cost-effective solution I can think of.
Dual OEM pumps, run in parallel (both electrically and mechanically). These should be easy and cheap to find since so many upgrade to the Walbro. I will continue to run the BAP, but at a low setting, just for some extra pressure if/when needed. Tee them together at the easiest, closest possible point.
-10AN line to a filter under the car, preferably in a more convenient location than stock. More -10 up to the fuel rails.
The -10 will tee off and each will be fitted to the rear of the Roe fuel rails.
The Roe fuel lines on the front of the rails will be used to make up the regulator system. A simple Aeromoitve adjustable FPR will accept both lines in, and the stock fuel line will be connected as the return.
This setup should take the least amount of work and the least amount of fittings and extra line to run to the front of the car. I hope it will be clean and easy to install. I believe this setup should handle the 10# Roe fuel needs just fine, and when needed, the extra flow for the wet nitrous system.
Please let me know what you guys think.
Russ M
Enthusiast
Sounds good, but you need to make a few adjustments.
Get Walbro 340 pumps the OEM pumps are regulated internally to 55 psi, which means you cant make more pressure than that with them. The Walbro complete pump kit should be about $100 each new.
The factory filter location is not that bad, and is preferable to the alternative which is mounting it near the drive shaft.
The fuel lines and fittings should cost you about $500, but the labor to install everything properly is just a bit too much. We spent about 2 days just doing the fuel system lines and fittings.
Get Walbro 340 pumps the OEM pumps are regulated internally to 55 psi, which means you cant make more pressure than that with them. The Walbro complete pump kit should be about $100 each new.
The factory filter location is not that bad, and is preferable to the alternative which is mounting it near the drive shaft.
The fuel lines and fittings should cost you about $500, but the labor to install everything properly is just a bit too much. We spent about 2 days just doing the fuel system lines and fittings.
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
I've never heard of Walbro 340 pumps
I didn't know the stock pumps were regulated internally, I thought there was an external regulator near the pump. What would be the issues with staying with the stock pumps at 55psi? I know 55psi isn't high and atomization is better with more pressure, but is 55 going to cause problems as long as the flow is sufficient?
I just would rather stay away from the Walbros. I have know guys that have had their Walbros fail and they don't have the best reputation for reliability.
I will be doing the work, so that cost is not a problem. But I don't want a complicated mess of hoses and fittings to worry about.
2001 GTS
Enthusiast
I have some 65lb injectors for sale if you need them. Just PM me if you want them.
Russ M
Enthusiast
Bottlefed,
Walbro 340's are just the part number of the pump its a 255lph pump like the factory one but walbro has several version of them. Some designed for low pressure and some like the 340's for high pressure. Meaning these pumps are much more efficient if you run pressures above 60psi when compared to the regular walbro 255's.
The factory pressure of 55 psi is ok if you have enough injector to allow such a low pressure. For example, at 55 psi if you are running 10 psi of boost thats actually 45 psi of fuel pressure which means 50lb injectors will only be good for roughly 700hp at the crank.
Factory viper pumps are walbro's and the reputation walbro's got several years ago is because people were burning them out with too high of fuel pressure. The new ones all come with internal pressure reliefs at about 100psi, which means you cant burn it out even if you try.
Walbro 340's are just the part number of the pump its a 255lph pump like the factory one but walbro has several version of them. Some designed for low pressure and some like the 340's for high pressure. Meaning these pumps are much more efficient if you run pressures above 60psi when compared to the regular walbro 255's.
The factory pressure of 55 psi is ok if you have enough injector to allow such a low pressure. For example, at 55 psi if you are running 10 psi of boost thats actually 45 psi of fuel pressure which means 50lb injectors will only be good for roughly 700hp at the crank.
Factory viper pumps are walbro's and the reputation walbro's got several years ago is because people were burning them out with too high of fuel pressure. The new ones all come with internal pressure reliefs at about 100psi, which means you cant burn it out even if you try.
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
Great info.
So the OEM Viper pumps are Walbros and have the older internal regulator problems?
I'd love to see a dual Walbro setup in the stock bracket... anyone??
So the OEM Viper pumps are Walbros and have the older internal regulator problems?
I'd love to see a dual Walbro setup in the stock bracket... anyone??
2001 GTS
Enthusiast
I'd love to see a dual Walbro setup in the stock bracket... anyone??
I want to say that Tony "1Tony1" did a setup like that
Joseph Dell
Enthusiast
I'm pretty sure he did a triple set-up. You won't actually need -10 to the rails... -10 to a -8 Y-block will be more than sufficient. and for what you are running, a -6 return (if you decide to run one) is fine. in fact, you can probably convert the OEM SEND line to a return line if you choose. get an external regulator for the return and you'll be all set.
good luck!
1TONY1
Enthusiast
Great info.
I'd love to see a dual Walbro setup in the stock bracket... anyone??
That is the way mine is. When my hard drive crashed I lost the pics of the inside. I did send them to a few folks back when....maybe someone still has them.
Here is the top. Two feed lines go into a Y block. I am using the stock line for a return.
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1TONY1
Enthusiast
I'll add to this....If you have the round metal piece on top like mine has, you may be able to use it for your regulator if using the stock line for a return. Not all years have the metal piece/return.
mnviper
Viper Owner
continue to run the BAP, but at a low setting
I believe that if you look at the current draw of two Walbros, it exceeds what the MSD BAP can handle.
I believe that if you look at the current draw of two Walbros, it exceeds what the MSD BAP can handle.
BOTTLEFED
Enthusiast
thanks Tony
yes, I plan to use the stock line as the return
so what will that metal piece regulate the pressure to?
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