They totaled my Viper today

black mamba1 · Jul 13, 2010

1fast400 said:
Jeff is a sharp guy and knows these cars well. I'm sure they'll get you fixed up.

Hey buddy I missed u over there today. I saw your parachute on your car!! They said its a 9 second car and I looked into the window and looks like you won some kinda award at Piedmont or something in that car. The guys there were telling me your car is absolutely sick! They said there is no experience in the world that can compare to the acceleration your car has coming off 485 and onto 77!

1fast400 · Jul 13, 2010

The blue car has been 7.80's in the 1/4 mile at 184 at one point. My goal during the fall/winter is to attempt to run 8's on 20" nitto invo's.

black mamba1 · Jul 13, 2010

7.8 in the quarter?? Dude...I aint gettin in the car with you!! That car is a dragster and should be on ESPN!

GlennSullivan · Jul 14, 2010

black mamba1 said:
Ok, right side of the car was pulled apart to assess the damage. The Police Report said the driver was doing an estimated 45 mph during the crash. See the guy in the blue shirt looking under my car? His name is Jeff and he said the guy was doing 75 or 80 mph when he lost control, braked, car got sideways and slowed to approximately 45, went over the embankment and hit the trees at around 35 mph. By the way, the speed limit on the road was 35 mph.

MbCenter knows what he is talking about, the front frame is bent, and thats like $12,000 right there. They said the car definitely seems fixable, but at what cost. They wont know that until tomorrow. AND..Iif its fixable...it will take 60-75 days to fix it. The kid in the red shirt pulled most of the pieces off the car and checked several alignment points. Kid seems really sharp. Double click on the first picture to magnify...you see that shiny insulated device? Thats my air conditioner part that holds the freon (thats what I was told) and look at the sheet metal underneath that piece, that section is supposed to be about 8 inches forward. This is where the Viper hit the first tree. The exhuast housing behind that panel is mangled, but the Belangers seem to be untouched. But we wont know that for sure until they take more parts off tomorrow.

Keep in mind that if you do elect to fix the car, it will forever be branded as a crashed car. Some carfax reports I've read include detailed repair information. If and when you go to sell you car, the crash / repair will make your car much more difficult to sell and you WILL get much less for your vehicled than the same car which was not wrecked.

I've bought a number of used high performance cars over the years and would / have never considered a car that has previously been in an accident.

The shop seems to be very competent, if you decide to go the repair route (I would not), your settlement will need to include additional monies to compensate you for the decreased value of the vehicle after it is repaired. In my opinion this will be significant.

PDCjonny · Jul 14, 2010

The above is correct, it will be unsalable in the future. No dealer will touch.
I went through this with a vette that just had some minor bodywork done.
Might unload it privately but you will have to give it away. First question is "any bad history?". Next thing you hear is the phone hangup.

Make sure the diminished value is figured in.
I would do everything you can to get it totalled and start again.

AFL in NJ · Jul 14, 2010

If it were my car, I'd want it fixed and a settlement to provide for future "loss" at resale. I keep my cars when I pay them off; you'd have to pry them from my cold dead hands to take one of my cars. If Keith plans to keep his and he's certainly had enough done to make it unique to him and him alone and gets a "settlement" on top of a free repair then I'd advise him to keep it.

Maybe he'll use the "settlement" as a down payment on another Viper, or something else....maybe a SRT8 Challenger vert?

Regards,
Aaron

VENOMAHOLIC · Jul 14, 2010

Kieth's best outcome would be having the car totalled with reasonable consideration for his mods. He could get a clean replacement Viper. The insurance company may allow Kieth to buy back his totalled Viper at salvage cost and he could regain the engine and all other mods that weren't damaged. He could transplant the engine into the new Viper and still have a full parts car left.

jdeft1 · Jul 14, 2010

So sorry for your loss. (and that of the dealership...who let some idiot drive the beast...)

I do all my own work for just this reason. Freakin' yahoos who have to go for a "test" ride.... NOPE, not even in my old '94.....

musicncars · Jul 14, 2010

GlennSullivan said:
Good advice here. The more information you can keep on the car, the better a settlement you will get. I think agreed value policies are a better alternative to conventional insurance for low mileage collector cars, especially if you have spent a substantial amount of money on mods.

One of my cars is a 1995 Mustang Cobra, if it were stolen tomorrow, the "book value" payout would be maybe $10,000. I've got over $50,000 in the car, so agreed value collector insurance is the only option.

I have agreed collector value with Haggerty's on my viper, and I do not think that the amount that I pay every year is that bad, either.

musicncars · Jul 14, 2010

BM1, sorry, that you're car had to suffer at the hands of an idiot. I'm sure that you will be fine, especially, since the owner is an attorney, he knows what he is up against, and I am sure that they will settle before it gets too far. Good Luck!

RTTTTed · Jul 14, 2010

I could get a "custom policy" with my Government insurance. I pay the theives $3200 per year last year (went up again I think). I was told that the cost is 10% of the "agreed" appraised valued. Yah, replacement cost would probably be about $65,000+ here in canada so that would be a $6,500 cost for insurance...

Of course the Gov had decided that any insurance profits are TAX.

Sure is a good thing I have a 19 year safe driver discount (46%).

Ted

black mamba1 · Jul 14, 2010

musicncars said:
BM1, sorry, that you're car had to suffer at the hands of an idiot. I'm sure that you will be fine, especially, since the owner is an attorney, he knows what he is up against, and I am sure that they will settle before it gets too far. Good Luck!

Thanks buddy, I appreciate that. Hey...wassup with that wing on your car? Its been a while since we chatted...and you went and got a wing?

black mamba1 · Jul 14, 2010

Damages came to $31,000 and change. I stopped by Underground Racing today and talked to Casey. He said he went and saw the car (body shop is across the street from his shop), and he just shook his head. He said he hope its totaled so I can get another car, that the damage was kinda serious.

I gotta tell ya, I believe Scotts Autobody are really good at what they do, but I am also aware that they want this job. The damage would have had to come to like 36k to total the car (75% of retail value of stock car same yr same mileage in NC), and part of me thinks the Autobody shop was motivated to keep the cost to repair UNDER the dollar amount to total the car. That way they make money on the repair. Anyone got an opinion on this?

Anyway...my gut feeling is to tell them they can have the car and just cut me a check to buy and build another Viper. One thing everybody agrees on is that the resale value of my Viper is toast.

BTW....Underground Racing had the sweetest twin turbo charged Lambo Murci's I have ever seen anywhere on the planet. That shop has some of the sickest cars anywhere in the world. Just stopping in there and seeing those cars made my day!!

RTTTTed · Jul 15, 2010

If you prove to insurance that the value of you car "rebuilt" or salvaged title is less it is their responsibility to make up the value - that's why I suggested asking for $8,000 or installed supercharger kit to be paid for by them which would offset the value of the wreck with after market goodies increasing the value of your car back to it's "Unrebuilt title" value.

Ted

GlennSullivan · Jul 15, 2010

RTTTTed said:
I could get a "custom policy" with my Government insurance. I pay the theives $3200 per year last year (went up again I think). I was told that the cost is 10% of the "agreed" appraised valued. Yah, replacement cost would probably be about $65,000+ here in canada so that would be a $6,500 cost for insurance...

Of course the Gov had decided that any insurance profits are TAX.

Sure is a good thing I have a 19 year safe driver discount (46%).

Ted

That is crazy money! I have my 09 insured for $85,000 and I pay about $1000.00. My 04 was insured for $55,000 and I paid around $800.00

GlennSullivan · Jul 15, 2010

black mamba1 said:
Damages came to $31,000 and change. I stopped by Underground Racing today and talked to Casey. He said he went and saw the car (body shop is across the street from his shop), and he just shook his head. He said he hope its totaled so I can get another car, that the damage was kinda serious.

I gotta tell ya, I believe Scotts Autobody are really good at what they do, but I am also aware that they want this job. The damage would have had to come to like 36k to total the car (75% of retail value of stock car same yr same mileage in NC), and part of me thinks the Autobody shop was motivated to keep the cost to repair UNDER the dollar amount to total the car. That way they make money on the repair. Anyone got an opinion on this?

Anyway...my gut feeling is to tell them they can have the car and just cut me a check to buy and build another Viper. One thing everybody agrees on is that the resale value of my Viper is toast.

BTW....Underground Racing had the sweetest twin turbo charged Lambo Murci's I have ever seen anywhere on the planet. That shop has some of the sickest cars anywhere in the world. Just stopping in there and seeing those cars made my day!!

I think you have hit the nail exactly on the head. A body shop does not make any money totaling a car. Typically what they will do is under estimate the repair and leave a few "hidden items" open with the adjuster. Then when they are halfway through the repair the "hidden items" are discovered and the insurance company has no choice but to proceed with a repair that is substantially over the "totalled" price of the vehicle.

I'm not saying every shop owner operates in this fashion but I know a few shop owners and unfortunately that is how they make money.

Your best bet is to get the dealership to pay you the value of your car 1 hour before the kid ran it down the embankment, which would be equal to the value of a stock 2004 Viper in the same condition as your car + the cost of all the mods you have added. As I said before that should be somewhere around $50,000 for the car + mods or in your case ?? $85,000.

As much as you are attached to the car, fixing it would end you up with a vehicle with substantially reduced resale value, that is assuming you could find a buyer - lots of people will flat our not consider a car that has been wrecked, I know I won't and none of the "car guys" I know won't either.

Best of Luck.

viperbob · Jul 15, 2010

black mamba1 said:
Damages came to $31,000 and change. I stopped by Underground Racing today and talked to Casey. He said he went and saw the car (body shop is across the street from his shop), and he just shook his head. He said he hope its totaled so I can get another car, that the damage was kinda serious.

I gotta tell ya, I believe Scotts Autobody are really good at what they do, but I am also aware that they want this job. The damage would have had to come to like 36k to total the car (75% of retail value of stock car same yr same mileage in NC), and part of me thinks the Autobody shop was motivated to keep the cost to repair UNDER the dollar amount to total the car. That way they make money on the repair. Anyone got an opinion on this?

Anyway...my gut feeling is to tell them they can have the car and just cut me a check to buy and build another Viper. One thing everybody agrees on is that the resale value of my Viper is toast.

BTW....Underground Racing had the sweetest twin turbo charged Lambo Murci's I have ever seen anywhere on the planet. That shop has some of the sickest cars anywhere in the world. Just stopping in there and seeing those cars made my day!!

I went through the same thing when I wrecked my '05 Viper - the repair shop provided an estimate that was under the amount needed to be declared totalled, and they also said that there might be additional costs after they started working on it. But I talked to Grundy Insurance and said I wanted them to do a "tear-down estimate" to determine the exact cost of the repairs, which they agreed to and low & behold the estimate went way up and they totalled it. The repair shop was not too happy they could fix it and even contacted Grundy to say they could make it like new but Grundy agreed with me - be persistant with them and things should work out fine.

AbsolutHank · Jul 15, 2010

Yeah like the red 06 coupe back on eBay that isn't selling in the 30s due to prior accident history...only 3K miles too!

Smog Dog · Jul 15, 2010

GlennSullivan said:
Your best bet is to get the dealership to pay you the value of your car 1 hour before the kid ran it down the embankment, which would be equal to the value of a stock 2004 Viper in the same condition as your car + the cost of all the mods you have added. As I said before that should be somewhere around $50,000 for the car + mods or in your case ?? $85,000.

I think 85K is a bit of a stretch.......never happen.

Bill

CitySnake · Jul 15, 2010

Don't know how I missed this thread for so many days. But MAN, BM, I FEEL FOR YOU! I don't know how I'd get on with my "real life" if I didn't know my Viper was always clean and ready to go at a moment's notice. It's painful just to read as a fellow club member. But, all this PITA DOES come to an end and it sure looks like you'll be back in the saddle once again.

I was up at Chuck's when your hood was all boxed up and ready to go out the door. Chuck was pissed that you moved away ... and took your Viper with you

.

I thought Viperbob's post was pretty profound to read. You might make a demand for this:

viperbob said:
IBut I talked to Grundy Insurance and said I wanted them to do a "tear-down estimate" to determine the exact cost of the repairs, which they agreed to and low & behold the estimate went way up and they totalled it. The repair shop was not too happy they could fix it and even contacted Grundy to say they could make it like new but Grundy agreed with me - be persistant with them and things should work out fine.

bmw2nv2000 · Jul 15, 2010

Sorry to question everyones intelligence hear but everyone keeps saying they owe you the cost of a car plus $25-35K in mods. Sorry but I dont think thats gonna happen unless you had the extra mods values specifically added to your insurance policy. Even if the dealer or body shops insurance has to pay you for the car they still only owe you for the way YOU have the car insured and since its never been said I am assuming you just had the car insured like any other stock 04 viper. Hence the insurance is only gonna cut a check for the value of a stock 04 Viper plus taxes. And another thing to insurance will call there dealer network they use to value the car, they do not go to KBB or NADA for values(and even though I hate insurance with all my heart this will benefit them in this case because the actual market on 04 vipers is nowhere near $55k). But of course you can fight and usually win these cases after 2-4 years in court(already been through this, and yes I won the extra $3k after 3 years of fighting in court, insurance will appeal as many times as the system will allow).
But if you dont believe me call your agent and ask him if you bolt on a set of $10k custom wheels/tires and your factory set is worth say $6k but you just leave your insurance as is and do not add the added value for the custom wheels/tires to the policy. Then lets say you go to the movies only to come out and find your 10k custom wheels/tires have been jacked. How much do you think insurance is going to pay you for the missing wheels/tires????? I can assure you it will not be $10k. Yes the insurance company has to make you "whole" again but they can only pay out on what you are paying for and that is for a stock car with stock $6k wheels/tires and even then you will be lucky if they dont try and buy you used stock wheels/tires since thats what they would classify yours as.
And last the OP's car being repaired will not brand the title as "salvage" or "rebuilt" the title will still be as clean as the day he bought it. But yes I agree there will still be a dimishied value and if the car is repaired you should get diminished value especially since you were not at fault for the accident.
I have learned all these things the hard way over the years by dealing with the scaming jerks and I am just passing along info on the way things work in the insurance world. Man I hope everything works out for you in the end. I have always had the worst luck with these crooks but always got paid what I thought was fair in the end but often wondered if it was even worth the time and stress for the extra money thats how the jerks work they wear you down until you will just accept the settlement. Best of Luck bud :2tu:

1fast400 · Jul 15, 2010

The question is, what is your car really worth? I can't imagine that car, before it was wrecked, was worth more than low 50's, BEST case. No offense, but fully built twin turbo cars have issues going for 70, no way your car is worth more than a TT car. A fully built SC car still struggles to get high 50's in most cases. Look at the yellow SC vert on this site that was asking 60.

I'm not sure of all of your mods, but I'm confused as to how it got so expensive. You basically have a built motor and a hood and that was 30k? Is there something I'm missing? For that type of cash you could have gone to UGR and probably gotten the motor built and a paxton. Just some thoughts.

GlennSullivan · Jul 15, 2010

bmw2nv2000 said:
Sorry to question everyones intelligence hear but everyone keeps saying they owe you the cost of a car plus $25-35K in mods. Sorry but I dont think thats gonna happen unless you had the extra mods values specifically added to your insurance policy. Even if the dealer or body shops insurance has to pay you for the car they still only owe you for the way YOU have the car insured and since its never been said I am assuming you just had the car insured like any other stock 04 viper. Hence the insurance is only gonna cut a check for the value of a stock 04 Viper plus taxes. And another thing to insurance will call there dealer network they use to value the car, they do not go to KBB or NADA for values(and even though I hate insurance with all my heart this will benefit them in this case because the actual market on 04 vipers is nowhere near $55k). But of course you can fight and usually win these cases after 2-4 years in court(already been through this, and yes I won the extra $3k after 3 years of fighting in court, insurance will appeal as many times as the system will allow).
But if you dont believe me call your agent and ask him if you bolt on a set of $10k custom wheels/tires and your factory set is worth say $6k but you just leave your insurance as is and do not add the added value for the custom wheels/tires to the policy. Then lets say you go to the movies only to come out and find your 10k custom wheels/tires have been jacked. How much do you think insurance is going to pay you for the missing wheels/tires????? I can assure you it will not be $10k. Yes the insurance company has to make you "whole" again but they can only pay out on what you are paying for and that is for a stock car with stock $6k wheels/tires and even then you will be lucky if they dont try and buy you used stock wheels/tires since thats what they would classify yours as.
And last the OP's car being repaired will not brand the title as "salvage" or "rebuilt" the title will still be as clean as the day he bought it. But yes I agree there will still be a dimishied value and if the car is repaired you should get diminished value especially since you were not at fault for the accident.
I have learned all these things the hard way over the years by dealing with the scaming jerks and I am just passing along info on the way things work in the insurance world. Man I hope everything works out for you in the end. I have always had the worst luck with these crooks but always got paid what I thought was fair in the end but often wondered if it was even worth the time and stress for the extra money thats how the jerks work they wear you down until you will just accept the settlement. Best of Luck bud

I Agree with you that if he goes through his insurance and DOES NOT have agreed value coverage he is going to get hosed. If he has agreed value coverage he is going to get what the agreed value is.

However that is not what he should be doing. He should be looking for the dealership and their carrier to make him completely whole in this loss and should retain an attorney to represent him in this.

It is their legal obligation to either give him the exact car he had 1 hour before the accident or the money to rebuild that exact car with all the modifications.

What that may entail is the dealerships insurance paying some of the money and the dealership itself contributing the remainder.

black mamba1 · Jul 15, 2010

I just want to clarify that there is always some grey area when determining damage estimates on repairs. While there seems to be some reason to believe that my repair estimate is on the low side, I dont think this is a reflection on Scotts Auto Body.

I stand by my statement that I believe they are a top notch body shop, one of the best if not the best in NC and are honorable in their work. If the Viper is not totaled I would have no problem having them fix the Viper. Chuck Tator is my first choice just because I have known Chuck for a long time and Chuck is of coure....THE WIZARD!!

The process is still ongoing so we will see where things finally end up.

fireball · Jul 15, 2010

Just a comment here. When you drop your vehicle off for repairs isn't your insurance still in force?

I know that here in Canada when you sign the repair order it states something slong the lines that the car is still 100% your responsibility and that the dealership isn't responsible for anything. It's like lending your car to a friend - your insurance still covers the car.

Is this not the case in the US?

Greg

black mamba1 · Jul 15, 2010

GlennSullivan said:
I Agree with you that if he goes through his insurance and DOES NOT have agreed value coverage he is going to get hosed. If he has agreed value coverage he is going to get what the agreed value is.

However that is not what he should be doing. He should be looking for the dealership and their carrier to make him completely whole in this loss and should retain an attorney to represent him in this.

It is there legal obligation to either give him the exact car he had 1 hour before the accident or the money to rebuild that exact car with all the modifications.

What that may entail is the dealerships insurance paying some of the money and the dealership itself contributing the remainder.

Fully built motor, cam, full Belanger exhaust with headers, swinging arm oil pan, roll bar, nav, aftermarket hood, VEC 3, ported heads, basically thats it.

CitySnake · Jul 15, 2010

Sadly, despite all the notice here and elsewhere on this forum, someone is going to leave their Viper in the care of others ... somewhere and we're going to be reading about this again.

Guess its "never going to happen to me" disorder.

GlennSullivan · Jul 15, 2010

fireball said:
Just a comment here. When you drop your vehicle off for repairs isn't your insurance still in force?

I know that here in Canada when you sign the repair order it states something slong the lines that the car is still 100% your responsibility and that the dealership isn't responsible for anything. It's like lending your car to a friend - your insurance still covers the car. Is this not the case in the US?

Greg

The service document he signed may have wording to that effect however, from what I seeing of the accident it goes WAY BEYOND the safe and appropriate operation of a motor vehicle.

Just because you state something in the US (I'm not responsible for wrecking your car) does not mean that is the case.

If the curcumstances of this accident as as stated, then the dealer is completely at fault.

fireball · Jul 15, 2010

GlennSullivan said:
The service document he signed may have wording to that effect however, from what I seeing of the accident it goes WAY BEYOND the safe and appropriate operation of a motor vehicle.

Just because you state something in the US (I'm not responsible for wrecking your car) does not mean that is the case.

If the curcumstances of this accident as as stated, then the dealer is completely at fault.

There's no question that the dealer is at fault. The question is who pays for it. I guess we'll know in a bit.

I think things will get really interesting if his insurance and the dealership insurance are the same company!

Greg

Sweet Ride · Jul 15, 2010

This situation completely blows. Hope it gets resolved well.

This has made me analyze my own insurance coverage. Currently my standard policy allows up to $1500 coverage of "custom parts" coverage. Needless to say, that doesn't come anywhere close to what was spent and/or what it would take to replace at retail cost. I'm working with my agent to resolve this and may be going with a stated value policy to cover my bases.

Again, this ***** and hope it is resolved quickly (with a new ACR...)

They totaled my Viper today

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