SCT v. VEC for boost?

My car currently has a VEC on it from the nitrous, I ordered it with the intent of doing turbo's so it has what it needs as far as MAP sensor/vacuum reference for boost etc. However, the interface seems a little primitive compared to what we could do with HP Tuners on my T/A. My question is, is there much more (or less) resolution with using SCT and is there a MAP sensor that I can use to control past 1 bar? Just browsing around I've seen a lot of SCT on cars, but I don't know if I've seen it on a boosted car. I prefer the idea of flashing the PCM over a piggy back, but I'd assume controlling 2 and 3 BAR is the challenge for SCT. If it can do it I would consider it over the VEC. Opinions please.

For the purpose of this thread, I'd also like to stay away from AEM, I've heard too many horror stories about it, and for the price, it isn't worth it. I'd consider a different standalone if I went that route, Autronic is a pretty intense standalone, they've never had even 1 mess up, and it has a 10 cyl. map. That's for another thread though.

It can be done. There is enough resolution for a 2-bar MAP [up to 1 bar of boost] on MOST cars, provided they don't have a non-linear fuel curve for some reason. In 90% of cases, it will work fine.

You will need SCT & PRP, and will have to learn the program yourself. Hands down, it will be a much better solution than the VEC when completed.

Over 2-bar MAP, you will need an aftermarket ECU.

Good info, I don't plan on making more than 14.7psi so that should be fine. Can the factory MAP read/control 2 BAR? PRP = Pro Racer Package?

EDIT: How much resolution is there for throttle on enrichment on Vec v. SCT?

'Trust' said:

Good info, I don't plan on making more than 14.7psi so that should be fine. Can the factory MAP read/control 2 BAR? PRP = Pro Racer Package?

EDIT: How much resolution is there for throttle on enrichment on Vec v. SCT?

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Factory MAP is 1-bar.

PRP= Pro Racer Package. [We sell these, and have longer than anyone else]

Define "Throttle Enrichment". The VEC and the SCT do not operate under the same principles. At all.

SCT is table-based ECU software, and VEC is percentage-based single dimensional in-line controller software.

Viper Specialty said:

Factory MAP is 1-bar.

PRP= Pro Racer Package. [We sell these, and have longer than anyone else]

Define "Throttle Enrichment". The VEC and the SCT do not operate under the same principles. At all.

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That's what I thought, do you know the MAP sensor P/N I'd need?

In regards to throttle enrichment, basically a function that will allow you to progressively control fuel and not just dump a bunch of fuel when you open the throttle just driving around. You'd assume scaling the injectors would be sufficient but it usually requires tweaking, especially with the larger injectors.

'Trust' said:

That's what I thought, do you know the MAP sensor P/N I'd need?

In regards to throttle enrichment, basically a function that will allow you to progressively control fuel and not just dump a bunch of fuel when you open the throttle just driving around. You'd assume scaling the injectors would be sufficient but it usually requires tweaking, especially with the larger injectors.

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Any 0-5V 2-Bar MAP sensor will work.

You have FULL control over the PCM, in all operating conditions, from static closed, to static open. It is nothing like the VEC, and you dont have any boundaries besides what the injectors are capable of.

If you are asking about fuel table cell resolution, the tables are 9x17 cells, for a total of 153 points. 9 cells for MAP, and 17 cells for RPM.

Lets buy them together Reza and Save some $$$ Maybe. Or i will let you be the test rat.. LOL

Ok cool,that's what I wanted to know. My VEC has a 2.5 BAR MAP so I'm assuming that is one of the only added benefits? I guess we'll see how the tuner likes the VEC, if it's an issue, then SCT it is. I can probably get the same 2 BAR MAP out of a GN.

'Trust' said:

Ok cool,that's what I wanted to know. My VEC has a 2.5 BAR MAP so I'm assuming that is one of the only added benefits? I guess we'll see how the tuner likes the VEC, if it's an issue, then SCT it is. I can probably get the same 2 BAR MAP out of a GN.

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I think you may be overestimating the VEC. It had its place in the Viper market, but that was 5+ years ago- a lot has changed since then. The VEC is simply too slow and does not have nearly enough adjust-ability for any truly correct fueling functions, as it works in a 2-dimensional program- true engine controllers require 3-dimensions. As an inline controller, it is not capable of altering Closed Loop parameters, the single most important aspect of getting an engine to run properly, nor idle, rev limits, fans, full timing maps, warm up and startup fuel, etc. In short, it is a bandaid at best, with horrible glue at that. The VEC is not in the same league as ANY actual engine ECU, and that includes the OEM ECU that has been re-flashed. The VEC has ZERO benefit over a 2-Bar MAP ECU. The fact that the VEC has a 2.5 bar MAP is irrelevant- it cant handle fuel injectors large enough to flow the kind of rates needed at that boost level anyway, and will cause start-up flooding and horrible hesitations if you try.

jrod_okc said:

Lets buy them together Reza and Save some $$$ Maybe. Or i will let you be the test rat.. LOL

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That can be arranged

Viper Specialty said:

I think you may be overestimating the VEC. It had its place in the Viper market, but that was 5+ years ago- a lot has changed since then. The VEC is simply too slow and does not have nearly enough adjust-ability for any truly correct fueling functions, as it works in a 2-dimensional program- true engine controllers require 3-dimensions. As an inline controller, it is not capable of altering Closed Loop parameters, the single most important aspect of getting an engine to run properly, nor idle, rev limits, fans, full timing maps, warm up and startup fuel, etc. In short, it is a bandaid at best, with horrible glue at that. The VEC is not in the same league as ANY actual engine ECU, and that includes the OEM ECU that has been re-flashed. The VEC has ZERO benefit over a 2-Bar MAP ECU. The fact that the VEC has a 2.5 bar MAP is irrelevant- it cant handle fuel injectors large enough to flow the kind of rates needed at that boost level anyway, and will cause start-up flooding and horrible hesitations if you try.

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I couldn't disagree more with some of your statements dissing the Vec. I have run one from 5lbs to 14lbs with the Roe S/C. From 36lb injectors to 1000cc injectors. And yes, I was flowing a lot of fuel. Also did N/A with 1000 cc injectors too. No issues....ZERO....of course I'm not the only one, there are 100's more out there completely satisfied. The ONLY reasons I have an AEM on my turbo car is 1. It has a boost controller 2. I love the data logging on the AEM.
I do have a brand new Vec3 setting on the shelf so one day when someone (or the AEM) ****** me off enough and wants to make a wager I will put it on, make over 1000whp, run low nines and high 150's with the turbos (I have pretty much proven the VEC with the Roe s/c) I have no doubt the start up, driveability etc will be just fine...in fact most likely better than my AEM. Actually, to me that is the PLUS about the Vec over a standalone....it will let the factory pcm do it's thing as taught by tons of engineering and a gazillion dollars. Another plus: It's darn simple !!

Any takers on my wager ???

I even know of an SCT that won't even do a decent job on mostly stock car....why would this be ?

1TONY1 said:

I couldn't disagree more with some of your statements dissing the Vec. I have run one from 5lbs to 14lbs with the Roe S/C. From 36lb injectors to 1000cc injectors. And yes, I was flowing a lot of fuel. Also did N/A with 1000 cc injectors too. No issues....ZERO....of course I'm not the only one, there are 100's more out there completely satisfied. The ONLY reasons I have an AEM on my turbo car is 1. It has a boost controller 2. I love the data logging on the AEM.
I do have a brand new Vec3 setting on the shelf so one day when someone (or the AEM) ****** me off enough and wants to make a wager I will put it on, make over 1000whp, run low nines and high 150's with the turbos (I have pretty much proven the VEC with the Roe s/c) I have no doubt the start up, driveability etc will be just fine...in fact most likely better than my AEM. Actually, to me that is the PLUS about the Vec over a standalone....it will let the factory pcm do it's thing as taught by tons of engineering and a gazillion dollars. Another plus: It's darn simple !!

Any takers on my wager ???

I even know of an SCT that won't even do a decent job on mostly stock car....why would this be ?

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Tony- I have no doubt you can make 1000 with a VEC. However, how much power you make doesnt mean ANYTHING if the car runs like crap around town, during startup, etc, etc. However... you and I both know, you dont exactly need 1000cc injectors to make 1000... so your problems wont be as bad as what I have been referring to.

I have tried multiple times to get a car to run half decent with 1000cc Injectors [MY PERSONAL CAR at the time] and sorry, but the VEC cannot do it correctly. The VEC does NOT scale pulsewidths until after the car is running, and will flood your engine EVERY time you try and start the thing with huge injectors as a result. The crank PW of a 30lb injector is enough to flood the engine running 96's. What about when the factory PCM tries to make the injectors go static and the injectors have no reference pulsewidth? What about when the Gen-3 cars try to keep the mixture Stoic for emissions? What about when your new injectors have a completely different battery response then your OEM's, and you chase your tail every time the system voltage changes, such as start-up or high-loads? Can the VEC do anything about that without "fooling" O2 sensors and back-dooring the problem?

The VEC's primary downfall is Scaling. The VEC is ALWAYS one full engine revolution behind. It is because of the way it is programmed. As a result, the hesitation becomes exponentially larger as you utilize larger and larger injectors. I spent WEEKS sorting this with Sean and CIVINCO, the company who manufactures and programs the VEC controllers.

This goes for both the VEC2 and VEC3.

Now, if you SCALE the factory PCM with SCT, and then use the VEC as an ADDER ONLY, it will work fine. In fact, it will work GREAT! However, at this point, you may as well just go to a 2-bar setup and be done with it, unless you are either new to SCT, already have the VEC in place, etc.

I have no idea which "car" you are referring to that is mostly stock... throw me a bone and maybe I can help...? The SCT has every capability that the factory PCM has to run a car. So... if you cant get it to work right, then something is obviously programmed wrong- it is not the software, SCT, or controller's fault.

I'll have to agree with Tony.
I have never had a problem tuning with the VEC. It is very easy to use, has great support, and works like a charm. I bought an SCT, and I can definitely say none of those apply to the SCT right now.
Also, the SCT has no logging capability, terrible customer support, and no auxiliary inputs/outputs.

Dan, you have done a great job of supporting the SCT and answering general questions, but until more tuners start using it and helping others, and SCT staff/techs pull their head out of their a$$, then the SCT will continue to struggle in the Viper world.
I really want to like the SCT and think it is a great idea, but its execution has been poor so far.

BOTTLEFED said:

I'll have to agree with Tony.
I have never had a problem tuning with the VEC. It is very easy to use, has great support, and works like a charm. I bought an SCT, and I can definitely say none of those apply to the SCT right now.
Also, the SCT has no logging capability, terrible customer support, and no auxiliary inputs/outputs.

Dan, you have done a great job of supporting the SCT and answering general questions, but until more tuners start using it and helping others, and SCT staff/techs pull their head out of their a$$, then the SCT will continue to struggle in the Viper world.
I really want to like the SCT and think it is a great idea, but its execution has been poor so far.

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While I cant dispute the lack of customer support from SCT.... have you not tried calling the VIPER TUNER you bought it from? I am SURE they would know more about it than SCT! If you bought it directly from a NON-Viper-Tuner to save a few bucks... well, that money you saved wasn't worth it. If you did, and haven't contacted them... may I suggest you DO before blaming the product? SCT simply does not have the resources to know "how" the Viper PCM is configured. Would this be any different if the VEC didn't come with any instructions? With the VEC, a VIPER TUNER stepped in, and finished the puzzle.

The SCT product is VERY widespread in its use, and has FANTASTIC results from those that KNOW HOW TO USE IT. The SCT is not really struggling IMHO. We use it, DC uses it, Roe uses it, RSI uses it, I suspect DLM uses it, among others. The tuner support IS there. Also, I have sold about 50 Pro Racer Packages. The knowledge is out there, people just arent sharing!

A tuning product can only be as good as the tuner. Period.

Again, can the VEC be used successfully and simply? Yes. Will it ever be as good or complete as an SCT car tuned correctly? NO, it cannot be by design. In some/most cases, can the VEC be good enough where people will be happy with it? Absolutely. It is a matter of programming and design. They are completely different approaches to a problem, and in the 1-bar of boost area, the SCT is hands down capable of making a better running and more complete package.


Hell, I will make you a deal. Give me all of the details of your car, and your build. I will work with you on the SCT, either to tune it or to TEACH you how to tune it. If it works, you pay. If it doesn't, You don't. I suspect you are trying to tidy up your OE PCM, and just use the VEC for W/M, Timing Pull and Fuel Add?

Deal?

*Obviously excluding inherent Roe Blower based issues that cannot be fixed with ANY controller or tuning system.

Viper Specialty said:

*Obviously excluding inherent Roe Blower based issues that cannot be fixed with ANY controller or tuning system.

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What issues? Not trying to be a smart A## or start an argument...Just trying to gain knowledge. I have a Roe blower with a Vec 2 and the only issue is it "bucks" at low speeds. It was tuned by Sean at Roe Racing. Is there a better engine management for the Roe blowers or do you feel the system is a bad design?

Great info, even though you guys have differing opinions.

I have a Gen1, so SCT is not an option for me, and is why I am looking for someone who can flash the stock PCM. (mainly just for injector scaling, proper start up PW, etc.) I just want to be able to run 800-1000cc injectors with the VEC. If Tony says that the VEC can run the 1000's with little issue, I may not even worry about it. If it's good enough for him, it'll be good enough for me.

Haha, well now I'm completely lost. If the tunes likes the VEC I'll keep it, if he doesn't, it'll get SCT. The car has 1000cc injectors so we'll see what it's like, although the first time we started it on the 1000's it seemed ok, but I'd like to start it on clean plugs, kill it, and check them for sure.

Viper Specialty said:

Tony- I have no doubt you can make 1000 with a VEC. However, how much power you make doesnt mean ANYTHING if the car runs like crap around town, during startup, etc, etc. However... you and I both know, you dont exactly need 1000cc injectors to make 1000... so your problems wont be as bad as what I have been referring to.

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I have never had an issue with start or drive-ability. Granted with the Roe/Vec it wasn't as good as a stock car but pretty darn close. I still think mine have better start/drive-ability than with the AEM (which isn't bad) Most of those are in the 40-50lb range on injector size.
What you say on the gen3 may be true but we are in the gen2 section and I'll admit my gen3 experience with a Vec is zero.

I also cannot compare or run down the SCT because I also have zero experience there except for the one car I mentioned and I haven't worked on it. Maybe he will give you a call. The Viper tuner he purchased it from hasn't been able to help. What I do know is that if he had gotten a Vec instead of the SCT (I think I suggested this ??) then he could have been making more power.

I am not against the SCT but I do know how well things had been for me with the Vec. for years and not only on my car but quite a few Roe s/c installs.

My neutral statement: Another thing is that Sean himself changed. Was it for a better box or financial reasons ? Someone should ask him. I'm pretty sure the new s/c will have the SCT so I guess I get to learn it in the future

Viper Specialty said:

While I cant dispute the lack of customer support from SCT.... have you not tried calling the VIPER TUNER you bought it from? I am SURE they would know more about it than SCT! If you bought it directly from a NON-Viper-Tuner to save a few bucks... well, that money you saved wasn't worth it. If you did, and haven't contacted them... may I suggest you DO before blaming the product? SCT simply does not have the resources to know "how" the Viper PCM is configured. Would this be any different if the VEC didn't come with any instructions? With the VEC, a VIPER TUNER stepped in, and finished the puzzle.

The SCT product is VERY widespread in its use, and has FANTASTIC results from those that KNOW HOW TO USE IT. The SCT is not really struggling IMHO. We use it, DC uses it, Roe uses it, RSI uses it, I suspect DLM uses it, among others. The tuner support IS there. Also, I have sold about 50 Pro Racer Packages. The knowledge is out there, people just arent sharing!

A tuning product can only be as good as the tuner. Period.

Again, can the VEC be used successfully and simply? Yes. Will it ever be as good or complete as an SCT car tuned correctly? NO, it cannot be by design. In some/most cases, can the VEC be good enough where people will be happy with it? Absolutely. It is a matter of programming and design. They are completely different approaches to a problem, and in the 1-bar of boost area, the SCT is hands down capable of making a better running and more complete package.


Hell, I will make you a deal. Give me all of the details of your car, and your build. I will work with you on the SCT, either to tune it or to TEACH you how to tune it. If it works, you pay. If it doesn't, You don't. I suspect you are trying to tidy up your OE PCM, and just use the VEC for W/M, Timing Pull and Fuel Add?

Deal?

*Obviously excluding inherent Roe Blower based issues that cannot be fixed with ANY controller or tuning system.

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I don't have it any more, I sent it back. And the problem wasn't from learning to tune it, it was from technical issues with the program and software, which only the SCT support could fix.

I'm not saying the SCT doesn't work, I'm saying its not as user-friendly as the VEC, especially for new tuners and DIY users.
Sean wrote up a great guide to installing and learning to tune with the VEC. That was invaluable to making the users feel comfortable with experimenting with it. You will sell a lot more of these if the buyers are at least comfortable with making minor changes themselves and not having to run to their tuner every time. Obviously this is the opposite of the Viper owners out there. How many of these have you sold to owners that want to tune their car on their own? That is what I mean by the SCT struggling here. The DIY guys are the ones that are not embracing it.

I may take you up on your offer, but not now. I'm making some major changes to my setup and want to learn to tune it on the program I know best, the VEC. I don't want to be trying to tune a new setup and learn a new program at the same time.
Maybe when I get this done, I will be ready to experiment with the SCT. If I do, you can bet that I won't keep it a secret. I will post every bit of knowledge I learn about it. So if you don't want others learning about it or tuning it for themselves, then retract your offer now.

1TONY1 said:

My neutral statement: Another thing is that Sean himself changed. Was it for a better box or financial reasons ? Someone should ask him. I'm pretty sure the new s/c will have the SCT so I guess I get to learn it in the future

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I talked to him for quite awhile at VOI. I asked him your exact question. He told me that the price jump by Civinco has kind of priced the VEC out of the market. He also said that the VEC hardware is too sensitive to power supply issues and circuitry failures that he doesn't want to worry about it anymore. He added that he does like the SCT and feels its an advancement over the VEC.
I asked him about the issues I had with SCT and my gripes about its flaws, but he didn't really know what to say. I think he really likes the VEC, but knows that we need something better.

I've been reading this thread with great interest. It appears that the big point, folks like Dan understand implicitly, and most miss is that the VEC is simply a bandaid that provides bogus input to the PCM to make it accommodate something that's way, way far away from what it was designed to handle.

In the end, the PCM will always win, and you still have to run within the limits of the PCM.

To do it "right" you seriously need to flash the PCM [ SCT does this ] to make it do what needs to be done correctly, so those new limits reflect the mods you have and are being handled correctly by the device that will always "win" -- the PCM. The VEC can't touch a lot of PCM areas the SCT can and are truly necessary to function properly, especially with boost.

Bandaid, reliability [ voltage sensitivity, car washes, rain, excessive water, etc ], all those things come to mind. PCM flash via SCT is the best way.

Disclaimer, I have no financial interest in SCT or any tuner. I spent most of my tuning days working with FAST which is similar to SCT. I spent more hours than I would have wanted to with VEC on a friends ride.

JMOHO ...
--FQB

speedracervr4 said:

What issues? Not trying to be a smart A## or start an argument...Just trying to gain knowledge. I have a Roe blower with a Vec 2 and the only issue is it "bucks" at low speeds. It was tuned by Sean at Roe Racing. Is there a better engine management for the Roe blowers or do you feel the system is a bad design?

Click to expand...

The primary downfalls of the Roe Blower are;

1. Air Biasing: as a result of the design, being a short-runner manifold with a air-bypass in one corner, and a blower feed in the front center, the air bias tends to favor the front cylinders leaner than the rest. This will cause different AFR's from cylinder to cylinder. As a result, when you "trim" the cylinders to be correct under low-load, they will then be incorrect again under high-load. As a result, you will always be chasing your tail with tunes at some level.

2. Intercooling: Since the current design remains non-intercooled, the blowers are forced down the methanol path. While this does work, this adds yet another complication to tuning, since W/M injection is sensitive to all condition changes. Furthermore, the system is not capable of detecting blocked jets, bad pumps, or any other multitude of W/M system issues that can result in a problem. Closed intercooler systems are far more reliable overall.

1TONY1 said:

I have never had an issue with start or drive-ability. Granted with the Roe/Vec it wasn't as good as a stock car but pretty darn close. I still think mine have better start/drive-ability than with the AEM (which isn't bad) Most of those are in the 40-50lb range on injector size.
What you say on the gen3 may be true but we are in the gen2 section and I'll admit my gen3 experience with a Vec is zero.

I also cannot compare or run down the SCT because I also have zero experience there except for the one car I mentioned and I haven't worked on it. Maybe he will give you a call. The Viper tuner he purchased it from hasn't been able to help. What I do know is that if he had gotten a Vec instead of the SCT (I think I suggested this ??) then he could have been making more power.

I am not against the SCT but I do know how well things had been for me with the Vec. for years and not only on my car but quite a few Roe s/c installs.

My neutral statement: Another thing is that Sean himself changed. Was it for a better box or financial reasons ? Someone should ask him. I'm pretty sure the new s/c will have the SCT so I guess I get to learn it in the future

Click to expand...

Tony: Please dont take this the wrong way, but what I do sense from this post is that you are siding with the VEC primarily because you don't work with the SCT. Believe me when I say that if you knew the SCT product, you would not be using many VEC's anymore. Reflashing is more reliable, simpler, and more complete than a VEC can ever hope to be in terms of tuning.

Learn the SCT. You wont go back.

BOTTLEFED said:

I don't have it any more, I sent it back. And the problem wasn't from learning to tune it, it was from technical issues with the program and software, which only the SCT support could fix.

I'm not saying the SCT doesn't work, I'm saying its not as user-friendly as the VEC, especially for new tuners and DIY users.
Sean wrote up a great guide to installing and learning to tune with the VEC. That was invaluable to making the users feel comfortable with experimenting with it. You will sell a lot more of these if the buyers are at least comfortable with making minor changes themselves and not having to run to their tuner every time. Obviously this is the opposite of the Viper owners out there. How many of these have you sold to owners that want to tune their car on their own? That is what I mean by the SCT struggling here. The DIY guys are the ones that are not embracing it.

I may take you up on your offer, but not now. I'm making some major changes to my setup and want to learn to tune it on the program I know best, the VEC. I don't want to be trying to tune a new setup and learn a new program at the same time.
Maybe when I get this done, I will be ready to experiment with the SCT. If I do, you can bet that I won't keep it a secret. I will post every bit of knowledge I learn about it. So if you don't want others learning about it or tuning it for themselves, then retract your offer now.

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While I dont know what technical issues you are refering to, chances are, I could have given you an alternate processor code that would have worked, or helped with dealing with SCT. They have been pretty responsive to my requests over the years on this product, and have fixed any issue I have found.

And I will agree with you- it is NOT as user friendly. However, how could you expect it to be? Why would anyone ever expect something that is 100x more complicated to be more user friendly? The SCT is complicated, sure- but if you take the time to learn HOW a VIPER PCM works, the rest falls into place. You don't have to play with everything on there... just leave it alone unless you know what it does. Also, the SCT is not nearly as complicated as AEM, and not even remotely as complicated or Pectel and Motec... yet people who want to, learn those on a daily basis. You have to put in the effort to get the results... or pay someone who already has.

I have sold 50 PRP's to owners looking to tune themselves, some of them needed help, some did not. However, your learning curve is only as good as your teacher. Who did you buy it from? If you didnt buy it from someone who knows how to use it... then you set yourself up for failure, did you not? If you guys want to purchase from someone who wont help you, to *maybe* save a couple bucks, then don't be surprised when it doesn't turn out the way you hoped. Would you rather buy a prescription from a pharmacist or a guy with a chemistry set and his fingers crossed?

You are talking like the SCT is a big secret. Maybe you missed the post I had started [but haven't had time to work on much] in the Tuning section all about SCT with Screen Shots? If you want to post all about it, go ahead! It will save me the time of having to explain it to everyone

Dan, I think you are thinking I'm saying the SCT does not work. I'm sure it works great. But the VEC works great and has lots of people using it and helping others use it. That is not the case with the SCT. You say you have sold 50 to DIY tuners, but where are they and why don't they post their results and info about their experience? I have seen one, JackB, and he is not boosted.
The SCT is not a secret, but using it successfully on a boosted Viper is. And I'm not saying it can't be done (although trusting a 2bar MAP tune scares me a little). I'm saying why isn't anyone sharing their success stories if it works so well?

Believe me, I know complicated and bad design. I'm tuning a 3rotor RX-7 on a Microtech and that is the definition of confusing. I'm not afraid of the SCT, but I have my reservations about switching over to it.
For one, I will lose my logging capabilities. It is great to have the VEC logs and connect my WBO2 into it and get precise measurements for each reading. The SCT will require buying a separate logging system ($250-500) and switching back and forth between programs to make adjustments to the maps.
Second, I will also lose my PWM output. I run my W/M system off it and I will have to buy a controller for that ($200-500) and rewire my setup. I can also log the PWM output on the VEC logs to see exactly where it comes on.
And probably the primary reason I'm holding out on the SCT is because I hate their policy of locking the programmer to each car. This means you can't check you buddy's tune if he has a problem and doesn't have his programmer. You can't sell it, ever. You are stuck with it and your $850 will never be recovered. You are stuck buying the Pro-racer package to make any changes yourself (and this is locked to your car as well, so no checking other tunes). The VEC can easily be swapped to another car for testing. I can check and make adjustments to any other VEC with my laptop as long as I have the software. I can sell my VEC to anyone if I don't need it anymore for $500+. I don't have to call the manufacturer if I sell my car so they can charge me $100 to change it over to the new owner's name.

My initial argument was that the VEC works well, has its advantages over the SCT, and has plenty of support from the Viper community and many of the best Viper tuners in the world. I feel the SCT has some advantages, but dealing with SCT support has really soured any desire to try it again for now. Also, the issues above are another problem that kept me from buying one earlier, and now only add to the bad feeling about the SCT.

So if I pay $850 for your SCT package with the tuner software, then I will need another $500-1000 to be able to get back to the features I have now with the VEC. Correct?

BOTTLEFED said:

Dan, I think you are thinking I'm saying the SCT does not work. I'm sure it works great. But the VEC works great and has lots of people using it and helping others use it. That is not the case with the SCT. You say you have sold 50 to DIY tuners, but where are they and why don't they post their results and info about their experience? I have seen one, JackB, and he is not boosted.
The SCT is not a secret, but using it successfully on a boosted Viper is. And I'm not saying it can't be done (although trusting a 2bar MAP tune scares me a little). I'm saying why isn't anyone sharing their success stories if it works so well?

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If you know the software well enough, making a boosted SCT car is not that big of a secret. Why is no one posting? That I cannot answer. They ARE out there, and they are indeed tuning with it. Many of the people I have sold to arent necessarily members of this board, or active members at that.

BOTTLEFED said:

Believe me, I know complicated and bad design. I'm tuning a 3rotor RX-7 on a Microtech and that is the definition of confusing. I'm not afraid of the SCT, but I have my reservations about switching over to it.
For one, I will lose my logging capabilities. It is great to have the VEC logs and connect my WBO2 into it and get precise measurements for each reading. The SCT will require buying a separate logging system ($250-500) and switching back and forth between programs to make adjustments to the maps.

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Palmer PCMScan is 199.00, and offers SO MANY BENEFITS over VEC logging, that it is barely comparable. The VEC logging is certainly useful, but it does not log any of the internal OBD-2 parameters, and they are all important when tuning. The extra cost is NOT lost. It is an UPGRADE.

BOTTLEFED said:

Second, I will also lose my PWM output. I run my W/M system off it and I will have to buy a controller for that ($200-500) and rewire my setup. I can also log the PWM output on the VEC logs to see exactly where it comes on.

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This, is correct. The OEM PCM has no extra outputs. However, there are plenty of W/M systems out there, and plenty of controllers that are reasonably priced, and offer more features than the VEC does, such as plugged nozzle recognition and fault finding. The extra cost is NOT lost. It is an UPGRADE.

BOTTLEFED said:

And probably the primary reason I'm holding out on the SCT is because I hate their policy of locking the programmer to each car. This means you can't check you buddy's tune if he has a problem and doesn't have his programmer. You can't sell it, ever. You are stuck with it and your $850 will never be recovered. You are stuck buying the Pro-racer package to make any changes yourself (and this is locked to your car as well, so no checking other tunes). The VEC can easily be swapped to another car for testing. I can check and make adjustments to any other VEC with my laptop as long as I have the software. I can sell my VEC to anyone if I don't need it anymore for $500+. I don't have to call the manufacturer if I sell my car so they can charge me $100 to change it over to the new owner's name.

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How can you expect SCT to have it any other way? What would you have then? One person would buy the software, and tune 1000 of his buddies cars for free. That is the purpose of DEALER software. You want to tune everyone's cars? Then buy dealer software. SCT is NOT FreeWare for a reason. VEC software took them a few week to months to write- SCT software took YEARS to write and decode. Do you think those guys are working for free? Look at the prices of other software out there on limited markets, such as AEM, Pectel, and Motec... they are thousands of dollars more. The price has to be absorbed somewhere. Even HPTuners isn't very far off price wise, and they have 1000x the market size we do. And yes, you certainly can sell off your Pro Racer Package provided the flash tool is in the Returned To Stock mode. You may have to pay an unlock fee, but you could sell it to someone else with that processor code.

BOTTLEFED said:

My initial argument was that the VEC works well, has its advantages over the SCT, and has plenty of support from the Viper community and many of the best Viper tuners in the world. I feel the SCT has some advantages, but dealing with SCT support has really soured any desire to try it again for now. Also, the issues above are another problem that kept me from buying one earlier, and now only add to the bad feeling about the SCT.

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And as I have said a dozen times, your experience is poor because you bought it from someone who either doesn't know the product, or has no leverage/interest in expediting solutions to any problems you may have had with SCT. I said above, I could have probably located you a more advanced processor code in place of your "troubled" one in a matter of minutes, and told SCT to change you over to it within a matter of hours. Problem? SOLVED. Its who you choose to work with. We pioneered the SCT product, yet people seem to forget that regularly.

BOTTLEFED said:

So if I pay $850 for your SCT package with the tuner software, then I will need another $500-1000 to be able to get back to the features I have now with the VEC. Correct?

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More like 200-400, but you will end up with a far more advanced and capable logging and tuning system than what you have now.

FWIW, the PCMSCAN software (or even the ScanXL) is night and day difference in logging capabilities than what the Vec3 can log. Also, I can add my LC-1 WBO sensor output as an input to the ScanXL software and log my AFR along with the available PIDS in ScanXL. The nice thing about this is that I don't have splice wires into anything.

I'd like to see more DIY write-ups on the SCT software as it applies to the Viper's PCM. I'm happy to contribute to the cause and document my SCT tuning journey for my NA Viper, but like others, I don't have the time to figure out the SCT software from scratch. I'd rather get a running start by having someone like Dan provide me a base tune to work with and I can take it from there.

Dan is correct, the factory PCM can be tuned for boost with the SCT and it works quite well. We have done several. Recently we tuned our local Viper club president's Gen 3. It had an AEM before. The car runs perfect and makes 900rwhp, he drives it.

Good info Dan. This is the kind of stuff that needs to be posted about the SCT. This helps people understand the product and what you need to use it.
The PCMscanner sounds like a cool tool and not a bad price.
The W/M controller will still be work to rewire and I already have a clog-detector and fail-safe.
I can see the programmer itself being registered to the user, but the software should not be. The software should be included in the programmer and not limited in use. That is just my opinion.

dan, thats impressive and the kind of info we need to hear more about. thanks