Paxton vs PD Blower - my Z06 vs my Viper

Nine Ball · Jan 7, 2011

I wonder how my polished head and intake K&Ns and ACRX long tubes do against a modded Z or Paxton Viper

I've run my Viper against a few 2008+ bolt-on Vipers. I usually put 2 car lengths on them through 4th gear, but once in 5th gear they catch up. Why? Because the rpm drop is so horrid in 5th that I'm barely making any boost. Then the 600 hp engine motors past the 500 hp engine. As a rough estimate, you'd likely need at least 100-150 more rwhp than a modded Z06 to break even with it, unless you have twins or a roots blower on the Viper.

To get what you want, you will have to add forged pistons and forged rods. Not too bad actually $$ wise.

I've been leaning that direction for a couple years. It actually isn't that expensive to do, since I can do the install myself. Probably go that route, but build the shortblock to handle twins...just in case.

A lot of you suggest a Roe screwcharger, but Roe never offered it for the SRT-10 cars. That would have definitely been my choice, had it been a production kit. I did email my VP contact at Magnacharger yesterday, to gauge interest in a blower kit for the Viper. I wonder if they have a housing large enough to feed the V10, and stay under the hood line.

RPM drop between gears is roughly 1K rpm. As indicated by those colored dots I put on the dyno comparison.

Why buy a Viper would be my question especially since they are more expensive, are not as well equipped, and basically look the same at least from the front

Because I can. I don't think my Viper looks like my Z06 at all. I like both cars quite a bit, for different reasons.

SquadX · Jan 7, 2011

If im not mistake, someone on here put a twin screw supercharger (not the roe) on there SRT, or am i thinking it was on there GTS. either way Iam sure it can be done with some modifications. Sean would be a good resource.

Any one have a Roe GTS willing to do a few runs with Nineball?

SquadX · Jan 7, 2011

I know this may sound crazy but hear me out....has anyone thought of putting taller gears in the viper, taller then stock, like something under 3.07, maybe a 2.93 or 2.86 like the benz Mclaren has. Should allow the viper to trap higher mphs in each gear. Might be a nice combo for the roe vipers cause of the tq. down low, paxton, maybe not so much unless your running big numbers. again just a thought.

ViperPWR · Jan 7, 2011

FLATOUT said:
Tony you really need to think about the restrictor plate idea.

Rocket it works like this.

Lets say Tony is running a pulley on the Paxton that allows his car to make 9lbs of boost. If you switch the pulley to a diameter that allows it to make say 13lbs of boost you'll obviously make a lot more power but on the stock motor have a much higher potential of breaking internals.

So you add a restrictor to limit the amount of total boost to say 9lbs on the 13lb pulley. The difference is the 13lb pulley builds boost much quicker but max's at 9lbs. It essentially adds more torque and changes the power band, but reaches peak boost sooner and holds it longer.

East Coast Supercharging on the Vette boards have been doing this to the Novi's on the Vette's for quite a few years now with amazing results. I added one to my old Vortech S Trim on my C5 Z06 and the car picked up power in the mid range.

It's not a complete fix but it did improve my old setup for about $10.

Andy Wheeler

I've ran the ECS restrictor plate in the past on my vette. It does what Andy states above. The restrictor is basically a very large washer that sets between the filter and SC inlet. It effectivly reduces the unside diameter of the intake tube. At lower airflow amounts it doesn't restrict much. As airflow increases it will start to restrict the flow. This allows you to drop a pulley size, spinning your SC faster sooner, creating more boost at lower RPMs and not getting any added boost at the high RPMS due to the restriction.

It isn't hi-tech but it does work.

Seb · Jan 7, 2011

SquadX said:
I know this may sound crazy but hear me out....has anyone thought of putting taller gears in the viper, taller then stock, like something under 3.07, maybe a 2.93 or 2.86 like the benz Maclauren has. Should allow the viper to trap higher mphs in each gear. Might be a nice combo for the roe vipers cause of the tq. down low, paxton, maybe not so much unless your running big numbers. again just a thought.

working on a 2.94 right now!

VIPER R · Jan 7, 2011

Seb@NLR said:
working on a 2.94 right now!

Maybe you should look into a Gear Vendors O.D. You could have the best of all worlds, 3.73's for the street, 2.whatever for racing and 12 speeds if you really like to shift.

georgethedog · Jan 7, 2011

Nine Ball said:
Because I can. I don't think my Viper looks like my Z06 at all. I like both cars quite a bit, for different reasons.

You didn't get my question... It was a general question not really pointed at you. By the way, nice look I'm a rich guy "because I can" answer. The question was designed for someone who would have to choose. What would you do if you had to choose???

If you can afford such things so easily, why not spend an extra couple bucks and join the VCA? You are already experiencing one of the great things about the VCA as there are a lot of experts on here who are glad to help. Love to have you!

Good luck with any changes that you make! I guess GM's attempt to get the Vette look like a Viper (at least from the front) didn't work on you.

One last thing, I would love to buy a Z06 if they made it in a convertible, but apparently GM hasn't figured out how to make a convertible frame that would be sturdy enough???

SquadX · Jan 7, 2011

Seb@NLR said:
working on a 2.94 right now!

Keep us posted and test results. Interested party right here.

viperpat · Jan 7, 2011

Your right the 06 viper has t56 but still same ratio in all gears as 6060.
If you had 2 zo6 both exact HP and one with 307 gears and other with 342
gears the the one with 342 gears will win every time.But i hope he changes gears in viper to show that the vette does not have magic powers. The vette has the right combination the viper does not have the right gears.
my 08 viper just got the new 2010 6060 trans with new 5th gear 0.796
the old trans had 0.741 just that small change made a big change car pulls much better in 5th before power fell of a cliff when i shifted to 5th

Nine Ball · Jan 7, 2011

georgethedog said:
You didn't get my question... It was a general question not really pointed at you. By the way, nice look I'm a rich guy "because I can" answer. The question was designed for someone who would have to choose. What would you do if you had to choose???

If you can afford such things so easily, why not spend an extra couple bucks and join the VCA? You are already experiencing one of the great things about the VCA as there are a lot of experts on here who are glad to help. Love to have you!

It seemed your comment was pointed at me, in my thread, so I responded as such. Sorry if I misinterpreted that. If I had to choose between the two, it would be the Viper. It was always on my dream car list when I couldn't afford one, the Corvette never was.

As for the VCA membership, I had one the last two years and used it exactly 0 times. I rarely have time to make any local gatherings, let alone national ones. I was also a paying vendor here, until recently. I'm not pleased with the way the VCA treats paying vendors here. Customer service isn't what it used to be, I suppose. If things were managed differently, I'd still be paying for a VCA membership and vendor status here.

Tony

FLATOUT · Jan 7, 2011

George Tony's automotive knowledge far surpasses many of the "experts" you pay for here. I am also thinking about canceling my venom membership here a's well since I get nothing out of it.

This was also a great honest discussion about the two platforms and their performance from someone that owns and installs all of the mods on both of his cars.

Bashing GM seems silly here.

georgethedog · Jan 7, 2011

Nine Ball said:
It seemed your comment was pointed at me, in my thread, so I responded as such. Sorry if I misinterpreted that. If I had to choose between the two, it would be the Viper. It was always on my dream car list when I couldn't afford one, the Corvette never was.

As for the VCA membership, I had one the last two years and used it exactly 0 times. I rarely have time to make any local gatherings, let alone national ones. I was also a paying vendor here, until recently. I'm not pleased with the way the VCA treats paying vendors here. Customer service isn't what it used to be, I suppose. If things were managed differently, I'd still be paying for a VCA membership and vendor status here.

Tony

All your comments are very understandable, Tony. Best of luck with your mods. Hope they all work. Glad you are on the board. Wish I could help more with your question... I do not know who said it (too lazy to look back) but the trans gears would seem to be the issue. My brothers and I used to do some playing with gears (trans & rear) back in the day of muscle cars, but they were all normally aspirated so the variables are different. What worked on those cars is not as applicable. You just have to be able to find a way to not loose that power drop off when you shift. Gears still seems to be the solution. Gotta get them closer--but not too close... :drive:

PM me with your business infor in case there is a way we can do business someday as I forgot what it was... Take care.

Nine Ball · Jan 7, 2011

George,

Gears are one of the better mods when trying to maximize potential within a given speed and distance. The drag strip. The shorter gear gets you off the line easier, since the torque multiple is higher and the engine rpm starts off higher. Then the same mod allows you to cross the traps at a higher rpm in 4th gear, improving acceleration for that set distance.

From a highway or roll racing perspective, gearing doesn't have the same affect. The rpm drop is the same, unless you go with a 6 (or 7) speed automatic with short spacing. I'd rather punch myself in the face than own an automatic Viper.

I'm thinking I'll likely just pull the engine and get it built with forged internals, boost up the Paxton. There doesn't seem to be a cheap fix here, and I'm almost at the 700 rwhp "safe" limit already. The other alternative is ditching the Paxton, going with twins on the stock engine. That would probably be good for a safe 750-800 rwhp, since turbos run more efficiently and with a cooler intake temp. I'd be pleased with that figure.

georgethedog · Jan 7, 2011

Nine Ball said:
George,

Gears are one of the better mods when trying to maximize potential within a given speed and distance. The drag strip. The shorter gear gets you off the line easier, since the torque multiple is higher and the engine rpm starts off higher. Then the same mod allows you to cross the traps at a higher rpm in 4th gear, improving acceleration for that set distance.

From a highway or roll racing perspective, gearing doesn't have the same affect. The rpm drop is the same, unless you go with a 6 (or 7) speed automatic with short spacing. I'd rather punch myself in the face than own an automatic Viper.

I'm thinking I'll likely just pull the engine and get it built with forged internals, boost up the Paxton. There doesn't seem to be a cheap fix here, and I'm almost at the 700 rwhp "safe" limit already. The other alternative is ditching the Paxton, going with twins on the stock engine. That would probably be good for a safe 750-800 rwhp, since turbos run more efficiently and with a cooler intake temp. I'd be pleased with that figure.

Yes, we built our old muscle cars (1970 Charger & 1970 Super Bee) and changed gears to do 1/8th and 1/4 mile runs. We were not interested in rolling starts even though we built those engines to take out just about any street car around here. So, I understand what you are saying. I would add the internals and boost the Paxton. The TT turbo setup is quite expensive and even though it is not necessary... would you not still want to beef up the internals just to be safe? I wish I could afford a used Paxton so I could buy yours and then you could go with the TT.

Good luck!!!

V10TT · Jan 7, 2011

Gears in the 1/4 mile help provided you got traction, and you can use all of 4th gear.
In the 60-155 race for these two cars I beleive it will not make a difference, and here is why.

the viper with its 3.07 at 6k rpms can pull:

2nd to 86 mph
3rd 119 mph
4th 156 mph.

Z06 with its 3.42 gears, and 7k shift rpm can pull:
2nd to 91 mph
3rd to 125 mph
4th to 162 mph

Now put 3.55s on the Viper with the same 6k shift rpm
2nd 74 mph
3rd 103 mph
4th 135 mph

If both cars start at 60 and the Viper has the 3.55s gears, I bet the Vette will not jump it as hard, or they might even stay even for a little....

Now comes 74 mph, and the Viper shifts to 3rd, but the vette is still in 2nd gear on its sweet spot all the way to 92 mph and now it has more gear multiplication (2nd vs. third on the Snake).

At 103 the Viper shifts to 4th, and the vette is now in 3rd... again advantage Vette because of more gearing...

Now at 135 is when it will get really UGLY!, the viper will go into 5th gear, and the vette is just getting into its sweet power band in 4th, plus the Viper has done one x-tra shift in the race to make it to 160 ....Now is when the vette will put bus lenghts on the Viper..

V10TT · Jan 7, 2011

I've been in Paxtons cars in the 550-650 rwhp range....LAME!

Now once they go 12-15lbs. ..watch out! they do move the hell out.
The intant TQ from smashing the Throttle from any rpm above 3500 is nasty!!
A lot more responsive than a TT on the initial hit.

FLATOUT · Jan 7, 2011

Tony sounds like you should have bought Tim's TT 2006

Let me know if you go TT I'm getting the itch for a Paxton, and I'll help you with the install if you like.

SquadX · Jan 7, 2011

A 5 adn 6th gear swap would be useless in this case as his runs is only to top of 4th. Can a revised 5th and 6th gear make up 2-3 car lenghts the z06 has put on the viper and who can actually get to the top of 5th on the highway 99% of the time, let alone 6th.

georgethedog · Jan 7, 2011

This is all very depressing that nobody for sure knows how to beat a stinkin Vette... you know... blue haired lady's car. I bet the Vette forum people would love to be reading this stuff. We have 2 extra cylinders!!!

Nine Ball · Jan 7, 2011

FLATOUT said:
Tony sounds like you should have bought Tim's TT 2006

Let me know if you go TT I'm getting the itch for a Paxton, and I'll help you with the install if you like.

You should come by anyways. I'll take you for a ride in the Viper and the Z06. Then you might want turbos too... :rolaugh:

Tony

trymyz · Jan 7, 2011

V10TT,
That was exactly the outcome. I raced a similar powered z06 wit my third gen. It had 3.55's. Up until 4th it was pretty close, he would gain every shift. Now when I had to shift into fifth it got ugly fast. That extra 1k rpm sure makes a difference.

plumcrazy · Jan 7, 2011

SquadX said:
A 5 adn 6th gear swap would be useless in this case as his runs is only to top of 4th. Can a revised 5th and 6th gear make up 2-3 car lenghts the z06 has put on the viper and who can actually get to the top of 5th on the highway 99% of the time, let alone 6th.

I believe bob pantax has done this mod on his SRT paxton car and is going to be testing it out.

FLATOUT · Jan 7, 2011

georgethedog said:
This is all very depressing that nobody for sure knows how to beat a stinkin Vette... you know... blue haired lady's car. I bet the Vette forum people would love to be reading this stuff. We have 2 extra cylinders!!!

Sometimes progress involves honesty. I look at this as a good thing.

plumcrazy · Jan 7, 2011

V10TT said:
I've been in Paxtons cars in the 550-650 rwhp range....LAME!

Now once they go 12-15lbs. ..watch out! they do move the hell out.
The intant TQ from smashing the Throttle from any rpm above 3500 is nasty!!
A lot more responsive than a TT on the initial hit.

sadly, i have never been in a stock paxton car. mine is stroked and pushing 14lbs, the above comment about paxton cars in this range is dead on. 750rwTQ @ 3500rpm is fun stuff and especially when the torque doesnt drop off till around 5500rpms unlike the twin screws.

Seems the lack of 7K rpm revving is the main issue here. from everything i have ever seen about the roe v pax debate, in general, the roe will need nitrous to compete on the track and street. but thats comparing built motor cars. on stock, right now it seems to go to a roe type of blower based on what is shown here.

FLATOUT · Jan 7, 2011

plumcrazy said:
I believe bob pantax has done this mod on his SRT paxton car and is going to be testing it out.

Trans gearing change, and restrictor plate could make a nice improvement in this package for the gen 3.

SquadX · Jan 7, 2011

trymyz said:
V10TT,
That was exactly the outcome. I raced a similar powered z06 wit my third gen. It had 3.55's. Up until 4th it was pretty close, he would gain every shift. Now when I had to shift into fifth it got ugly fast. That extra 1k rpm sure makes a difference.

Was your car stock with just 3.55 or 3.55 and paxton? and I assume the z06 your referring to was stock.

So the 3.55s kept you in the game until 5th except for the slight gains the z06 had on the shifts. Well i guess that's 'better' news for pulls from 1-4th.

I have 3.55s and pretty much stay in the power band or I get there quick enough it doesnt matter but the early shifts are killing me. thinking about going back to stock 3.07s and somehow some new injectors aand a tune can net me 50-60rwhp in the midrange to make up the difference in gears.

Any one have a roe dyno they can overlay to nineballs? I swear with all the Roe vipers out there, where's one when you need it.

FLATOUT · Jan 7, 2011

It's interesting that the vettes with the fastest blower times are the centrifugal Novis. The PD blowers on those motors seem to run slower, and need nitrous to even get close. The higher redline probably allows the cetrifugals to make great power up high, and the PD's peak early.

The Viper motor on the other hand due to to it's redline responds opposite.

plumcrazy · Jan 7, 2011

andy, i have never seen a built motor roe keep up with a built paxton car without nitrous IIRC

plumcrazy · Jan 7, 2011

the only problem when you start putting more boost to a SC motor is the strain on the crank snout. trust me, you dont wanna break one off. the more boost, the tighter you have to keep that belt to keep from slipping. if you dont have a better tensioner, its not going to work so good. the 10 rib belt also helps in this case.

this (the belt) is where the ROE has a big advantage over the paxton

99 R/T 10 · Jan 7, 2011

plumcrazy said:
andy, i have never seen a built motor roe keep up with a built paxton car without nitrous IIRC

*cough* 1Tony1 Roe time 9.68 W/O NOS *cough*

Paxton vs PD Blower - my Z06 vs my Viper

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