Maybe, just maybe, someone at Dodge is actually following our reactions to this product announcement and changing prices accordingly. Seems highly unlikey, but 10K for that upgrade package would be a great deal. All I can say though is that there is a huge gap between a 39K MSRP and a 30K MSRP claimed at the show for the engine.
800HP V10 crate engine, 650HP bolt-on kit for Gen III's, announced today
- Thread starter srt4evah
- Start date
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
It is typical for the price to increase 100% when the MOPAR name (NOT Dodge, they are a separate company) is attached to any of their parts offerings, just the way it is, wish we could buy direct from the actual producers.
jknappster
Enthusiast
I'm not impressed. Same results can be had cheaper.
ssjcreeper
Viper Owner
The greatest appeal to me in this kit is leveraging the Mopar name should selling my Gen III ever come under consideration. I may be totally off on this, but I'm inclined to believe that in the eyes of a buyer this kit could be looked at as a factory sponsored "upgrade" vs a custom modification to the vehicle.
It's always good to see new options open up, but admittedly once you add headers, the $12k+ price is difficult to justify when there are other options out there for similar or lesser costs providing higher gains and/or additional upgrades.
It's always good to see new options open up, but admittedly once you add headers, the $12k+ price is difficult to justify when there are other options out there for similar or lesser costs providing higher gains and/or additional upgrades.
jknappster
Enthusiast
Have Greg Good work the stock heads, throw in a cam, larger throttle body, and SCT tune and you would be there and with exception to the throttle body, no one would know the difference.
georgethedog
Enthusiast
Too expensive for what you get. Give me a break MOPAR... Mopar reminds me of Lexus (put an "L" on the front of a Toyota and ask a huge price).
DodgeViper01
Enthusiast
Very good way to sum it up.
AbsolutHank
Enthusiast
I'm not familiar with MOPAR at all, but is this one of those things where it lists for $10k, but you can buy it for $8000 once its out?
ddspeppers
Enthusiast
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I saw a web site that listed the 800hp engine @ $37,900.00. I want the 650hp package for my'06 convertible but now starting to wonder if I should start looking for Gen IV because I suspect the 650 hp kit will prolly run in the $14,800 range if my luck holds true.
georgethedog
Enthusiast
Yea, sell your 06 and add $14K to it and should be in a Gen 4. For me, I have an 03... not as easy. But Mopar can stuff their big prices. If I want to build my engine, it will be without Mopar's help.
Canyon707
Enthusiast
I wonder if it will be street legal in Calif. One thing for sure it won't last long on the dragstrip. NHRA rules state any car under 11.5 needs an NHRA approved rollbar welded to the frame. No if's and's or but's. And no doubt that motor will run under 11.5. My near stock Gen3 runs 11.55. Thats why I haven't done more to my car as much as I would like to.
351carlo
Enthusiast
Question for the more knowledgeable folks....
The "Crate Engine" seems to have a redline over 7k RPM. Is the low redline on the other motors more a function of camshaft or intake limitations or other details? I'm sometimes surprised at the lack of "Cam Only" setups, with the exception of a few guys doing a CC cam. My other all motor cars have always benefited from a cam, but of course if the intake and heads won't flow more air then it won't benefit.
The "Crate Engine" seems to have a redline over 7k RPM. Is the low redline on the other motors more a function of camshaft or intake limitations or other details? I'm sometimes surprised at the lack of "Cam Only" setups, with the exception of a few guys doing a CC cam. My other all motor cars have always benefited from a cam, but of course if the intake and heads won't flow more air then it won't benefit.
Canyon707
Enthusiast
It's all about air the more you can push through the motor the faster you go. I think with this 650 hp setup a cam I think would be essential and I think you must need headers also. I am concerned about the bottom end. IMO
The crate engine surely has a strengthened bottom end, and also appears to be running a revised valvetrain, probably a solid roller setup.
However, your question is rather complicated actually. Generally speaking with regard to the two Gen-4 based setups in this thread, the lower redline on the other setups is mainly due to the valvetrain. The Gen-4 based valvetrain, while MUCH better than any previous generation, was designed to be a long-life street based valvetrain revving to 6500RPM or less. As you increase RPM, spring pressures need to increase, lifters will eventually need to be solid because of this, etc, etc. The end result is a shorter life higher maintenance valvetrain. No problem for a Drag engine, but not the best for a street engine.
However, thats not the whole story. The Drag engine is Gen-4 based, the G4 conversion engine is Gen-3 based. Gen-3 Oil Systems are not very good in those higher RPM ranges. The Gen-4 oil system however, was designed from the start for higher RPM applications, as the Gen-4 power band was shifted up. That is the primary root cause.
Now that being said.... with the right combination, all of the above goes out the window.
viperbilliam
Enthusiast
The Gen III upgrade gave me the impression that it can increase by 150 hp without a cam upgrade which I find very hard to believe.
Here is what I found,
The 800hp crate engine is the same as used in the Drag Pack Challenger. We have worked extensively on Ron Durham's Challenger (#3 in the points) and the engine is a very impressive. What is amazing about this engine is that it is really not highly modified. It uses a hydraulic roller cam (stock lifters and rocker arms) and very high compression (12.5 to 1) and needs to be run on race gas. Even with the combination of many stock parts it revs over 7000 rpm and Ron's Car has more than 60 runs down the dragstrip, the engine was torn down once by NHRA and reassembled, only the head gasket was replaced.
This engine uses a new upper manifold that accepts a Gen 3 type throttle body and uses a Gen 3 JTEC engine controller. I am not sure if the engine comes with a wiring harness or controller. It is a "Drag Race Only" engine and would not be the best choice for a street rod.
The Gen 3 to 4 conversion will require new exhaust as well as the port layout differs. When we got into this we found that the conversion costs were more than our current upgrade for about the same power. None the less it is a very nice conversion. The actual price is not available yet.
Hope this helps, really neat new stuff.
The 800hp crate engine is the same as used in the Drag Pack Challenger. We have worked extensively on Ron Durham's Challenger (#3 in the points) and the engine is a very impressive. What is amazing about this engine is that it is really not highly modified. It uses a hydraulic roller cam (stock lifters and rocker arms) and very high compression (12.5 to 1) and needs to be run on race gas. Even with the combination of many stock parts it revs over 7000 rpm and Ron's Car has more than 60 runs down the dragstrip, the engine was torn down once by NHRA and reassembled, only the head gasket was replaced.
This engine uses a new upper manifold that accepts a Gen 3 type throttle body and uses a Gen 3 JTEC engine controller. I am not sure if the engine comes with a wiring harness or controller. It is a "Drag Race Only" engine and would not be the best choice for a street rod.
The Gen 3 to 4 conversion will require new exhaust as well as the port layout differs. When we got into this we found that the conversion costs were more than our current upgrade for about the same power. None the less it is a very nice conversion. The actual price is not available yet.
Hope this helps, really neat new stuff.
well there goes that idea for 99.9 % of the owners
Plum- we already trampled this topic earlier in the thread- that is not an engine that can be used in a street or track application anyway, it is a DRAG ENGINE ONLY.
Canyon707
Enthusiast
If you want to drag race go buy a drag car. Under 10 second cars complete for under the price of the crate motor. http://www.racingjunk.com/category/18/Complete-Race-Cars.html
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What I find really neat about all this is that Mopar is starting to think "out of the box" with new and more interesting products.
Starting in 2011 all Dodge computers will be "locked out" or unprogrammable by the aftermarket. Maybe Mopar will take the inititive to produce "packages" with parts and programming that are "factory approved".
Starting in 2011 all Dodge computers will be "locked out" or unprogrammable by the aftermarket. Maybe Mopar will take the inititive to produce "packages" with parts and programming that are "factory approved".
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
Dan,
Funny thing is if you watch the SRT8 and Jeep forums Diablo is about 1 minute away from "cracking the code" based on "insider" information LOL.
d really neat about all this is that Mopar is starting to think "out of the box" with new and more interesting products.
Starting in 2011 all Dodge computers will be "locked out" or unprogrammable by the aftermarket. Maybe Mopar will take the inititive to produce "packages" with parts and programming that are "factory approved".[/QUOTE]
Funny thing is if you watch the SRT8 and Jeep forums Diablo is about 1 minute away from "cracking the code" based on "insider" information LOL.
d really neat about all this is that Mopar is starting to think "out of the box" with new and more interesting products.
Starting in 2011 all Dodge computers will be "locked out" or unprogrammable by the aftermarket. Maybe Mopar will take the inititive to produce "packages" with parts and programming that are "factory approved".[/QUOTE]
fqberful
Enthusiast
Yep cup cars are running e-85 next year with the fuel injection and in the fuel injection tests this year too. About the same as MS109 only about 1/2 the cost. Cup car engines run around 14:1 compression ratios.
mjorgensen Woodhouse
Enthusiast
fqberful
Enthusiast
You know that's interesting that you bring that up, I was thinking the same thing. One thing that kind of shocked me was Chad Kanuas [ sp? Jimmy Johnson's crew chief ] was saying on NASCAR Performance last weekend that they felt the mileage would not be much different and then the conversation went on to no fuel during decel so no flames, etc.
Since there's way less energy in a gallon of ethanol than a gallon of gas I wonder how they can get nearly the same mileage, or will they just restrict the fuel and slow the cars down yet again? Maybe he was just blowing smoke ? We shall see.
Mark,
This is all just a rumor and not based in fact. If you go to the Diablo website forums you will see the comments. With warranty claims a big concern I can see Dodges thinking, but with a clearly established guidelines (like Ford and Chevy) on what is allowed or not, there is a huge market for Aftermarket sales. Look at the Performance parts for the Mustang and Camaro offered by the manufactures, its huge. Many people buy Vipers, Challengers, Corvettes, Camaro's and Mustangs because they can modify them. If they cannot do this with a Dodge they may jump ship.
Interesting about computers now-a-days. Before you could calibrate controllers through the OBD port (most cars). Some you actually had to open the computer plug in internally "boot mode" to calibrate them. Now many computers (like some Dodge) cannot be programmed externaly and have a optical sensor that yields them useless if you open them up.
I hope Mopar jumps on the bandwagon and embraces the aftermarket.
QUOTE=mjorgensen Woodhouse;3015001]Dan,
Funny thing is if you watch the SRT8 and Jeep forums Diablo is about 1 minute away from "cracking the code" based on "insider" information LOL.
d really neat about all this is that Mopar is starting to think "out of the box" with new and more interesting products.
Starting in 2011 all Dodge computers will be "locked out" or unprogrammable by the aftermarket. Maybe Mopar will take the inititive to produce "packages" with parts and programming that are "factory approved".[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
This is all just a rumor and not based in fact. If you go to the Diablo website forums you will see the comments. With warranty claims a big concern I can see Dodges thinking, but with a clearly established guidelines (like Ford and Chevy) on what is allowed or not, there is a huge market for Aftermarket sales. Look at the Performance parts for the Mustang and Camaro offered by the manufactures, its huge. Many people buy Vipers, Challengers, Corvettes, Camaro's and Mustangs because they can modify them. If they cannot do this with a Dodge they may jump ship.
Interesting about computers now-a-days. Before you could calibrate controllers through the OBD port (most cars). Some you actually had to open the computer plug in internally "boot mode" to calibrate them. Now many computers (like some Dodge) cannot be programmed externaly and have a optical sensor that yields them useless if you open them up.
I hope Mopar jumps on the bandwagon and embraces the aftermarket.
QUOTE=mjorgensen Woodhouse;3015001]Dan,
Funny thing is if you watch the SRT8 and Jeep forums Diablo is about 1 minute away from "cracking the code" based on "insider" information LOL.
d really neat about all this is that Mopar is starting to think "out of the box" with new and more interesting products.
Starting in 2011 all Dodge computers will be "locked out" or unprogrammable by the aftermarket. Maybe Mopar will take the inititive to produce "packages" with parts and programming that are "factory approved".[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Mr. Mom
Enthusiast
On LXForums the issue of tuning the 2011-12 versions of the LX-C/Jeep is a very sore spot. Had a couple of SRT roundtables - at least one included Ralph Gilles - and it was something they said was out of the question. Too many warranty issues and repair scamming going on for them to open the codes. They've don't have a good history of allowing it either. Who knows, now that Ralph runs SRT and not Dodge, things could change, but it doesn't seem likely.
Back on topic, partially. As a person new to the community and still trying to learn a ton, why all this emphasis on the GenIII and notsomuch the GenIV? Also, if this 650hp package is a little steep, where is a good place to look for an acceptable heads-cam-etc. package?
Back on topic, partially. As a person new to the community and still trying to learn a ton, why all this emphasis on the GenIII and notsomuch the GenIV? Also, if this 650hp package is a little steep, where is a good place to look for an acceptable heads-cam-etc. package?
[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
ssjcreeper
Viper Owner
Gen III tuning is wide open. Not so much for the Gen IV. A number of heads/cam packages are available for the Gen III. Greg Good, Viper Specialty, Roe Racing are the first that come to mind.
