MOPAR ECU did not dyno well, lost 12wtq/gain 5whp - Graph inside

1.8t · Nov 17, 2011

***** to have to put my foot in my mouth after raving about the ECU as it really does significantly improve the drivability of the car, but it just didn't perform the way I expected. I essentially lost power everywhere except for 6k to 6.5k rpm. This is the same dyno I always dyno on and the worse thing is, the conditions this evening were even cooler than they were when I dyno'ed with the stock ECU. My stock ECU dyno took place right at 2 weeks ago in warmer conditions. Only changes since then are a K&N panel filter, Autolite spark plugs in the drivers side(already had them in the passenger side for testing), and the MOPAR PCM. Hell, the K&N filter is probably responsible for the 5hp gain.

Red is stock ECU, Blue is MOPAR ECU. All runs on the same dynoject 248C SAE corrected with just 2 weeks separating them.

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I will be putting the stock PCM back in after seeing this data. I guess I am the lucky person to lose tq/barely gain any power when all the big shops claim it is good for at least 5wtq/whp bump.

Edit: Only other mods are Bellanger headers and Bellanger 3" catted exhaust

Boxer12 · Nov 17, 2011

I think the MOPAR ECU is designed for the increased flow of headers, intake. I would keep it until you have headers installed. Then you will need it. And besides, who can notice a 5 hp difference? Skip shift and higher RPM in the ECU too. If it drives better, leave it on! Just my 2c.

1.8t · Nov 17, 2011

I already have headers/exhaust. I edited my first post to include my other mods

FLL-B/W-GTS · Nov 17, 2011

My 08 SRT Couple ran just fine with the stock ECU.Love that popping thing.Take it off and get your $$$$$$ back.

Coloviper · Nov 17, 2011

Doesn't the new ECU have to learn for a few hundred miles first? Hard to tell if the corrected amounts are right as factors being used are not shown. You sure all spark plug wires are on fully and don't have a small gap in one.

plumcrazy · Nov 17, 2011

there is too many variables to worry about 5hp ! even on the same dyno, its a different set of conditions. and there isnt anyone gonna tell me you can fell 5hp on a car like these

1.8t · Nov 17, 2011

No codes, no misfires, no nothing. The only thing that might play a factor is the car probably only has ~100 miles on it since the MOPAR ECU went in. Another interesting thing is my first pull, the car made 505wtq, the second pull it made 530wtq, and the last pull after a cool down it made 551wtq. Is there a learning period with this ECU? It seems others have made the change and seen instant gains. I am very tempted to take my OEM ECU back to the dyno tomorrow and test each of them back to back.

1.8t · Nov 17, 2011

plumcrazy said:
there is too many variables to worry about 5hp ! even on the same dyno, its a different set of conditions. and there isnt anyone gonna tell me you can fell 5hp on a car like these

I could care less about the hp, but I do not like area under the curve loss through the entire rev range for a product that is supposed to produce more power. If there is one thing I wanted from the MOPAR PCM it was a stronger tq curve/more tq.

alpha85 · Nov 17, 2011

What year is your car? You probably lost torque due to the 3" exhaust. I would go back to the 2.5. Were you running 93 octane? If not you won't realize the benefit of the PCM. You need to drive it with the higher octane a few tank fulls so the PCM can learn the car. My 08 with Belanger headers, exhaust, Mopar PCM using Torco fuel additive mix to 95 octane dynoed 630rwhp 613rwtq.

Dan Cragin · Nov 18, 2011

I think your results are not correct. There are many variables here and the Gen 4's are very sensitive to enviromental conditions.
Call me and I would be happy to go over all this with you.

01sapphirebob · Nov 18, 2011

alpha85 said:
Were you running 93 octane?

This is what I was wondering myself.

1.8t · Nov 18, 2011

Yes I had 93oct in the tank, that is all this car gets. Remember everyone, the variable here is the ECU and the conditions, not the header/exhaust. My car made 582whp/565wtq with the stock ECU and my current header/exhaust combo.

Coloviper · Nov 18, 2011

1.8t;

If it is nice out this weekend, I would take it out and drive around for 200 to 300 miles and burn through a tank and a half in all types of driving conditions. As the ECU self tunes, it will get stronger and stronger. It is like any control loop. If everything else is installed properly, I am willing to bet the performance numbers are going to keep going up as it self tunes. That is the beauty of these electronic systems compared to the old, set the floats this and set the timing that, of the old mechanical hard tuned carburetor type motors of the past.

mjorgensen Woodhouse · Nov 18, 2011

Ditto to all above statements, you also have to realize that the dyno does NOT simulate road loads and the car will probably faster then the numbers suggest on the road. Drive it longer and then check the dyno again, but the only true way to test is at the track IMHO.

1.8t · Nov 18, 2011

^ Agreed. At the end of the day, as long as it puts up more mph at the track, I could care less what the dyno says. I will be taking both ECU's with me when I eventually get to one. Only takes 5min to change them anyways, so no worries. Thanks for all of the constructive comments everyone

.

VIPER PIT · Nov 18, 2011

I was just about to say that as well. It took about 250 miles for mine to learn the car. At first start up after putting in the mopar unit the car bucked some, erratic idle but as I drove it it got smoother and stronger. The best part was the long drive to salt lake city, I could see the difference.

Viperless · Nov 18, 2011

1.8t said:
I could care less about the hp, but I do not like area under the curve loss through the entire rev range for a product that is supposed to produce more power. If there is one thing I wanted from the MOPAR PCM it was a stronger tq curve/more tq.

My results were almost identical to yours but I saw zero gain in hp and tq. My peak power and torque were unchanged from the stock ECU but everywhere else they were lower. I made sure there was enough octane. I dynoed again several hundred miles later and the results were even worse.

Maybe we should take our cars to alpha85's dyno. LOL

bmw2nv2000 · Nov 18, 2011

I had my venom controller installed this week. Ive only driven it 30 miles with the controller in it but so far Im dissapointed overall especially for the $1200 Im out. While the throttle response is somewhat improved and not as bad to buck when changing gears thats about all I can tell. But maybe it will pay off when I do long tubes and port polished heads and intake. I still say not the best results for $1200 but at least my check engine light is finally out(Im catless). And the decel pop is gone but I can live without it.

bmw2nv2000 · Nov 18, 2011

Hell why didnt you tell us this before Viperless and I would have thrown that $1200 toward a set of LT's

Viperless · Nov 18, 2011

bmw2nv2000 said:
Hell why didnt you tell us this before Viperless and I would have thrown that $1200 toward a set of LT's

I've mentioned it several times in various threads. Besides, the reports of gains far outweigh the now two reports of no gain.

bmw2nv2000 · Nov 18, 2011

Guess I should read more lol. Maybe I will feel some differences as my controller learns to the car. But at any rate Im sure I will be glad once I get all the other crap done to my car.

Dom426h · Nov 18, 2011

Coloviper said:
I would take it out and drive around for 200 to 300 miles and burn through a tank and a half in all types of driving conditions. As the ECU self tunes, it will get stronger and stronger. It is like any control loop. If everything else is installed properly, I am willing to bet the performance numbers are going to keep going up as it self tunes. That is the beauty of these electronic systems compared to the old, set the floats this and set the timing that, of the old mechanical hard tuned carburetor type motors of the past.

mjorgensen Woodhouse said:
Drive it longer and then check the dyno again, but the only true way to test is at the track IMHO.

VIPER PIT said:
I was just about to say that as well. It took about 250 miles for mine to learn the car. At first start up after putting in the mopar unit the car bucked some, erratic idle but as I drove it it got smoother and stronger.

Could someone please elaborate on the whole ECU "Learning" thing. I was under the impression that at W.O.T.(what most tune for and measure on a dyno) that the map/parameters are more fixed then at "normal" part-throttle driving.

This would explain the typical tuner routine of:
editing a program, uploading the tune, then doing a couple dyno pulls, then adjusting the tune, then doing another couple pulles, ect...

If the ECU learns like yall are saying then how would a tuner get an accurate tune without spending significant time and money on racking up additional miles and dyno time?

I regularly switch between diff tunes with my SCT on my GTS and notice no hicups/learnings. Is this because with a flash controller like SCT the base memory with all of the saved parameters remains in the ECU ???? as where with the OP's situation he is entirly replacing the ECU?

Viperless · Nov 18, 2011

bmw2nv2000 said:
Guess I should read more lol. Maybe I will feel some differences as my controller learns to the car. But at any rate Im sure I will be glad once I get all the other crap done to my car.

There are other benefits to the controller besides the advertised hp gain but they may not justify the expense for most people. I was expecting the hyper sensitivity of some of the sensors to be relaxed such as the air flow/throttle sensors. I still can't remove the rain baffle in the hood without the car going into limp home mode. Others can with no problem even with the factory controller.

The controller for me has become an expensive skip shift eliminator, cat delete, and shift light. I got a pretty good discount on it but still. Not sure I'd do it again.

fqberful · Nov 18, 2011

You guys are missing a couple big points here. (1) day to different day same dyno the runs may differ +- 10hp easy even if you trailer your car both times. Maybe even more. (2) the mopar perf ecu fixes a number of issues like CELs with headers and stuff. This one regardless of the gains perceived or real is a necessary thing if you do mods on a gen iv. At least until someone cracks the NGC ecu and it can be mapped fairly easily like the JTEC.

The dyno is a tuning tool, not an absolute. The only comparative readings that are actually real are those run back-to-back and then you better run 2 or 3 in each set of changes and take the average.

--FQB

Viperless · Nov 18, 2011

Dom426h said:
Could someone please elaborate on the whole ECU "Learning" thing. I was under the impression that at W.O.T.(what most tune for and measure on a dyno) that the map/parameters are more fixed then at "normal" part-throttle driving.

This would explain the typical tuner routine of:
editing a program, uploading the tune, then doing a couple dyno pulls, then adjusting the tune, then doing another couple pulles, ect...

If the ECU learns like yall are saying then how would a tuner get an accurate tune without spending significant time and money on racking up additional miles and dyno time?

I regularly switch between diff tunes with my SCT on my GTS and notice no hicups/learnings. Is this because with a flash controller like SCT the base memory with all of the saved parameters remains in the ECU ???? as where with the OP's situation he is entirly replacing the ECU?

I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure the Venom controller works just like every other controller out there at WOT. So you would be correct. The mapping is fixed does not change. There may be other adaptives that change as the controller "learns" but WOT is open loop and ignores the 02 sensors. The only exception to this as far as I know is if a controller has a wideband 02 input and runs closed loop at WOT. I also know some factory controllers on say a turbo car will pull timing if it detects detonation and will slowly feed that timing back in to protect the engine in case you were running crappy gas. The timing map is fixed but the controller has the authority to retard it on a limited basis. I believe the Venom controller will retard timing if it detects knock but I don't know how much or for how long. I also read in another thread on this site that the throttles on Gen4's do not open 100%. Since they're electronically controlled, my bet is the controller can ****** with them as well all in the name of protecting the engine. Good question for the engineers.

alpha85 · Nov 19, 2011

Thats about what mine did before the Torco. Torco is the real deal.

alpha85 · Nov 19, 2011

I used two different one's. Same result.

Twister · Nov 19, 2011

Give it a month of driving and then redyno. Numbers will go up.

plumcrazy · Nov 19, 2011

did you take DC up on his offer ?

1.8t · Nov 19, 2011

I am going to give DC a call on Monday.

MOPAR ECU did not dyno well, lost 12wtq/gain 5whp - Graph inside

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