Monday we find out who is faster at Laguna Seca, ZR1 or Gen V

SnakeBitten said:

Bluestreak, I think you took my post wrong for the most part. Your last paragraph is more to where I was heading with my last two posts.
I've come to the conclusion that Ralph and company tested both cars on their respective tires and they where probably essentially even hence why they sent the car that way. However they miscalculated since Pobst doesn't have the seat time like SRT's drivers so he was unable to match the ZR1's pace in the GTS on Corsa's.

There is no way they would have sent this car knowing there is a 2.1 sec gap. Looking at it objectively now clearly shows, as you said and i alluded to in my second to last post above, the car is there the tire isn't. So maybe it doesn't need CCB's, but it surely needs better tires since its power isn't enough to be dominant. I think maybe after we all calm down and sift through the hard facts we will get a better perspective of the car.

But nothing will make me happier than seeing a GTS with the new LS lap record. Give it the RIGHT tires SRT. As you can see you can't leave magazine drivers, regardless of skill, with the task of pulling out that last 10%. Help them out with the proper tire please so you will avoid a thread like this again. It's hell of a way to wake to 2.1 sec loss.

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I honestly wasn't responding to you. I happened to be posting at the same time. Just injecting a little knowledge base regarding the tires for the doooooomsday theorists. Ralph and team may not have seen a 2s gap, but they almost certainly had the ZR1 ahead based on his comment "we have never seen a gap that big". As far as this mayhem goes, it doesn't matter if the Viper lost by .2 or 2 seconds, people will still think the sky is falling.

And also to make one thing clear, if you think any journalist or driver is is just going to head out to the course and beat Randy (even at 8/10ths) from hopping in a factory alignment car after never being in it, those people are fooling themselves. Even Randy toning it down is not 2 seconds off the pace. SRT showing up with their factory drivers is not going to prove anything. You don't think Jan Magnussen (no not Mero) wouldn't go faster in a ZR1? He might run a 1:29 in that thing with a couple of days of testing. You don't think Toshio Suzuki would go faster in the GT-R??? There is no real credibility in showing up with your factory driver. For the rest of the world, the car must pass the test on test day with independent party testing. And most everytime, on corsas, the Gen V will get beat. Period.

jvp said:

Let me know when you have extensive experience driving both cars on a road course.



Ah, I can see what I'm working with here and it ain't much. Let's see if I can talk at a level you'll understand.



Interesting. I make a claim based purely on the article at play here, but you call me on it with "facts". And then you refuse to provide me backing to your facts. It sounds to me like you haven't clue 1 what you're talking about.

But I'm game. Let's use your post #431 in this thread as well as the Motor Trend article in question. Ready?

You said

Clearly the tires play the biggest mechanical role in a vehicle on the track, but there was more at play here.



We see a small difference in the two cars' braking performance in the instrumented tests. The ZR1 pulled a 91 ft stop, which is eyeball popping. The Viper did it in 93 ft, which is also eyeball popping. Neither is anything to be ashamed of; quite to the contrary they're both fantastic numbers. And they speak to both cars' tires as well as their brakes.

With that, back to your quote on brakes. I claim that the brakes were one of the biggest challenges the Viper faced on the track after a few laps. If the brakes are fading, it means the car can't slow enough to get the grip it needs in the front end for:



What the driver is left with is a car that's plowing because it's moving too fast for turn-in, OR he's braking way earlier so that he can slow down enough for turn-in. But, our friends at Motor Trend said this about turn-in:



Hm.

Back to you:

I'll give you a big "maybe" here, and that's about all. The reason for my nod to you is that Randy said in the aforementioned article, Tires could be the cause of that. But so could overly stiff sway bars and springs. Having never been in a Gen5 Viper, I can't say for sure. But the writer of the article did note:



That would lead me to believe that the Viper's suspension is a bit too taught and non-compliant, even though they didn't come right out and say it.

You say:

Let's return to the article where the acceleration of the cars were tested from a stand-still. Nothing can quite brutalize a set of rears like launching from a hole and blasting up to 60MPH or tearing up a quarter mile. In both cases, the cars were identical. 60MPH in 3.4 seconds, and the quarter in 11.4@128MPH. Impressive numbers for both, and it means their tires are working fairly identically WRT acceleration.



I said it wasn't tires because they pulled similar Gs AND the Viper's brakes were overwhelmed on the track. Read the article again.



And further:



More still:



I'm not seeing any mention in the article or the tweets between Ralph and "Motor Trend" regarding tires. Perhaps Pirelli and "Motor Trend" are in cahoots?



Clearly. Carry on.

jas

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Don't try to play that "drive extensively in both cars bit" I've been at the track and watched FAST drivers heat soak a ZR1. Anyone can tool around at snail's pace and keep a car cool. GT-R's are notorious overheaters, yet there are guys slow enough not to overheat them. Drive the car at 1:33 laguna pace, which is like 2:00 or less at VIR for 30 minutes, then talk to me about not heat soaking.

Where is that list of Road Race cars? How many ZR1's are RACING actually vs Z06's?? Not DE, RACING?? Vs how many Z06s? but sure, you are the only one who knows the ZR1 is a better platform for track and race......


Instrumented braking tests mean squat, as anyone worth their salt knows that the Carbons work even better the hotter they get. While steels get longer, CC get shorter. So the true difference in braking cannot be measured on cold tires with cold brakes as the car sits still and they get the equipment set up........ The true difference is measured several laps into a session, which is far more indicative of the TRUE braking difference. MPSC are also quite slow to come up to temperature as well, so we are potentially looking at a big gap here with hot CC and hot MPSC.

You are starting to sound like an amateur and not someone who's been at the track actually.


And now you have the nerve to talk about drag racing as it pertains to road racing seriously? NT01 are far better drag racing tires than MPSC, yet MPSC will still go quite a bit faster around a track. You are really reaching for straws now.

Another thing, you keep ignoring the part where they say the Viper had more understeer and oversteer everywhere, which could be setup, but just as easily be a set of tires with more tread and less grip squirming all over the place vs a dailed in set of MPSC which have fantastic turn-in grip and cornering speed with less tread depth. Similar to RA1 being horrible on the track full tread, but aces shaved. Two completely different tires, probably 2 seconds in that alone.

Not only that, but you continue to harp on the G readings. The Viper was "close" but got out cornered in every turn but 1. And increase in G's in all of those turns as would be provided by MPSC would certainly close the gap by a significant margin.

For a guy who claims to drive on track, you sure seem to be completely reliant on the magazine to give you all of your information. Sorry, I'm not convinced.

Well this thread certainly brought out the trolls.

Also, I am an enthusiast AND I own a Viper. Is it ok to post now?

Change the effing tires already and redux. Bluestreak hit it head on with his post about the car being sorted but not the tires. Don't ever compromise on performance, Ralph. You had to have known how inferior a tire the damn Pcorsas are.

In looking at the lap chart provided by MT, the Vett out braked the Viper. Plain and simple. And it looks like the Vett was able to carry more speed through most of the corners. The cause of that is not known. It would be nice to instrument both cars and learn exactly what enabled the Vett to out brake the Viper and carry the speed through the corners. I tend to like to have data that I can check and varify not comments, even (maybe espically) those comments from the driver. Everything and anything that has been mention could have caused this result or even a combination of those factors - driver, tires, brakes, shocks, etc. Without proper instrumentation, we'll never know. If Viper has tested extensively at this course, they could go back to their own data and see exactly where the Viper should have done what.

doctorbob said:

Read my posts please. Do not take it personal. You are on this site (hopefully) as a proponent of the Viper. You are entitled to your opinion. With that said, what are you doing on this site if you do not own one, do not plan on buying one, or are not a true enthusiast of the car? Read Billy P and Bobpantax posts.

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Wow...just...wow.

OK Guys,

Being a present Viper owner and having bought and owned pretty much every generation of Viper made, I think I can make an accurate assessment of where we are at on this whole issue.

The Vette "feels" easier to drive at the limits, stated by Pobst, admitted to by Gilles, so we can consider this a FACT

Solution - maybe get a driver that has not spun a viper to drive both cars so there is no perceived limit? But then, Gilles even admits you have to push past the point of perceivable danger and he Viper will reward you.... I would say that maybe a few adjustments are in order so the new Viper "feels" less dangerous at the limit??? This would only help sales, not hurt it, it would help give the Viper a better reputation if people felt confident driving it versus scared of it. Either way, I would say this is a place that SRT should look at and focus on, making the Viper feel better is long overdue and if any changes can be made to do this should be done, the changes will reap the rewards of higher sales

If Sales are the goal, I personally think it is a mistake to tell everyone that a Viper will reward you if you push past where it feels safe, why not just make it feel safe?


The Vette comes with Carbon Ceramic Brakes, a $10,000 option, ($1700 each rotor to replace) The Vette out braked the Viper, whether the Viper was losing its brakes or not, is supposition, but I can see that maybe the Pobst/Viper in trying to compensate for not "pushing to the edge" Pobst overcompensated by braking harder and earlier which easily cost the Viper some time. So what is the solution? Bigger brakes? ACRX Brembo rotors and bigger pads? Brake cooling?

It looks like everybody at SRT should know what to do, maybe the track pack needs to come with a track alignment, brake cooling, etc. Simple, cheap changes that can result in a win versus a loss.

tire differences:
corsa (i'm assuming the one on the right):



trofeo:



mpsc:


I think it's pretty obvious the tires are very different.

I don't think it matters how the Viper feels at it's limits when 9 out of 10 automotive press release on the Gen V have a statement in them along the lines of... "Well this new Viper is less likely to kill you" You know that has to affect all but the most seasoned Viper driver even when they are driving the Gen V.

As far as the brakes. They calipers and rotors are fine. The issue is the stock pads and fluid. It always is. /end brake discussion

elanderholm said:

As far as the brakes. They calipers and rotors are fine. The issue is the stock pads and fluid. It always is. /end brake discussion

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then why not make the "track pack" pads better track pads and upgrade the fluid, only makes sense for a track pack upgrade option.

v10enomous said:

I don't think it matters how the Viper feels at it's limits when 9 out of 10 automotive press release on the Gen V have a statement in them along the lines of... "Well this new Viper is less likely to kill you" You know that has to affect all but the most seasoned Viper driver even when they are driving the Gen V.

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Unfortunately this is dead nuts on, the media has a perception that is probably carried over form the Gen 1/2 days, hell give a gen 2 a lot f gas, it "wants" to go sideways, give a gen 3 a lot of gas, it wants to go straight. The refinement has been happening over the years, but, now, with this car, it is simply time to get it perfect.

If a car "feels" safe, people can push past their limits, if it never feels safe enough to try, then they won't.

GTS-R 001 said:

then why not make the "track pack" pads better track pads and upgrade the fluid, only makes sense for a track pack upgrade option.

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i agree.

The problem is dot 4 brake fluid is much more hygroscopic than Dot 3. You need to make sure you change it much more often. With most people buying the track pack to putz around on the street race pads and Dot 4 fluid makes no sense.

I would make it an option so at least you can put it on the car when you test it. At this point most people that read these reviews and proclaim "ZR1 is MOstest FASTest!1!!" have no idea that when you track your car you make changes.

Everyone I know that runs their ZR1s hard puts Motul 600 or even SRF fluid in to deal with the insane amount of heat that CCBs can generate.

In my ACR I need to run a full race pad in the front, stock pads in the rear and Motul 600 at least to deal with the heat created from lots of downforce and cup tires. I would guess that track pack viper wouldn't need nearly as aggressive pads in the front, but at least motul 600 and something like a street/track pad (auto-x pad) would help a lot.

But, the tires are the biggest issue. Even with a little fade a pro can hustle a car around a track faster on stickier tires.

SRT needs to get Pirelli to get the trofeo tire in the 355 size ASAP and make it a factory option for the track pack.

GTS-R 001 said:

Unfortunately this is dead nuts on, the media has a perception that is probably carried over form the Gen 1/2 days, hell give a gen 2 a lot f gas, it "wants" to go sideways, give a gen 3 a lot of gas, it wants to go straight. The refinement has been happening over the years, but, now, with this car, it is simply time to get it perfect.

If a car "feels" safe, people can push past their limits, if it never feels safe enough to try, then they won't.

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Agree 100%. My gen2, stuck like glue then let go like on ice, took me for a ride every trackday. My gen3 would bite me but I could recover, nearly everytime, only took me for a few rides now & then. My gen4 feels like it has a stability control in track mode, I can Tokyo Drift the car around a sweeping turn and feel quite confident, I can feel the car at limit. It's tossed twice, but both times the track was still drying from rain. People get the idea that the viper handles as it did in 1996 and I think that's where Ralph is coming from, there's a fear devil on your shoulder screaming it's going to bite you, and the confidence isn;t there, when in reality it should be.

elanderholm said:

SRT needs to get Pirelli to get the trofeo tire in the 355 size ASAP and make it a factory option for the track pack.

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When tires are the issue, it's usually a while before they are addressed. The black ink has already dried on the Corsa contract. Trofeo R should be pretty close to the MPSC. And certainly faster than Corsas.

GTS-R 001 said:

Unfortunately this is dead nuts on, the media has a perception that is probably carried over form the Gen 1/2 days, hell give a gen 2 a lot f gas, it "wants" to go sideways, give a gen 3 a lot of gas, it wants to go straight. The refinement has been happening over the years, but, now, with this car, it is simply time to get it perfect.

If a car "feels" safe, people can push past their limits, if it never feels safe enough to try, then they won't.

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As a multiple Gen 2, 3 and 4 owner I am fine with Pobst's opinion of the car. Unfortunately for Fiat, they have tried to position the Gen V as a "kinder/gentler" Viper in order to appeal to the Porsche and Audi crowd. Having the first big test basically tell everyone that the Viper is still a frightening beast can only have a negative effect on their plan. I suspect we'll quickly see a bunch of very low mileage Gen V's on the market after the "Country club crowd" get tired of them.

There are a lot of thoughful interesting posts on the Vette forum about this and most are very even handed.
But honestly, when oh when are they going to stop calling the 2010 ACR record at the 'Ring not legal or unfairly done.
They just cannot accept how badly it beat the ZR1. And still insist it was illegally "lowered" or didn't meet some other criteria.
If a stock production car off the showroom floor can be lowered or has a front splitter or big wing it's still a stock production car off the showroom floor.
And oddly it was cheating using the Sports Cups till the ZR1 also ran the Sports Cups.
Accept the reality and stop crying!

eucharistos said:

hmmm.... i think it would be cool for SRT to train a nobody viper owner

(from houston)

to run the gen v correctly at LS and have him (me) show the bowtie boys how it is done

i wonder when they will call me....eerrrr....him

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Arrrrgh somebody get me an xbox360 plus the Forza game and I would love to volunteer as a spare driver for next year People already know I gots karting skills!

MtnBiker said:

Saw this on a vette forum.

http://www.z06vette.com/forums/atta...5-do-you-like-better-zr1-viper-acr-webfwk.jpg

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batmobile

ViperJon said:

But honestly, when oh when are they going to stop calling the 2010 ACR record at the 'Ring not legal or unfairly done.
They just cannot accept how badly it beat the ZR1. And still insist it was illegally "lowered" or didn't meet some other criteria.
If a stock production car off the showroom floor can be lowered or has a front splitter or big wing it's still a stock production car off the showroom floor.

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Facts are facts: as delivered to the 'Ring that car was not FMVSS legal. Period. Full stop. You don't have to accept it, like it, or even believe it. But it's true. It's why the car can't legally be delivered with its splitter attached from the dealer (I'm sure lots of dealers do it anyway). That has been our point all along. When you start talking street legal 'Ring times, the Viper ACR as equipped fails with respect to North American laws.

Try to run the 'Ring at the same speed without that splitter and see how well it does. I'll bet: not as well.

I'm sorry if that's offensive to you, but if you don't like it: get the laws changed. And feel free to argue the point, but please bear in mind my stance is backed by the established FMVSS (for what little good they may or may not be). Discuss those points, not the "excuses" you think I'm making.

jas

Speaking about the DOT 4, version 5.1 is already around... I guess it's still a tad bit too expensive at the moment or are there still teething problems?

elanderholm said:

i agree.

The problem is dot 4 brake fluid is much more hygroscopic than Dot 3. You need to make sure you change it much more often. With most people buying the track pack to putz around on the street race pads and Dot 4 fluid makes no sense.

I would make it an option so at least you can put it on the car when you test it. At this point most people that read these reviews and proclaim "ZR1 is MOstest FASTest!1!!" have no idea that when you track your car you make changes.

Everyone I know that runs their ZR1s hard puts Motul 600 or even SRF fluid in to deal with the insane amount of heat that CCBs can generate.

In my ACR I need to run a full race pad in the front, stock pads in the rear and Motul 600 at least to deal with the heat created from lots of downforce and cup tires. I would guess that track pack viper wouldn't need nearly as aggressive pads in the front, but at least motul 600 and something like a street/track pad (auto-x pad) would help a lot.

But, the tires are the biggest issue. Even with a little fade a pro can hustle a car around a track faster on stickier tires.

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jvp said:

Facts are facts: as delivered to the 'Ring that car was not FMVSS legal. Period. Full stop. You don't have to accept it, like it, or even believe it. But it's true. It's why the car can't legally be delivered with its splitter attached from the dealer (I'm sure lots of dealers do it anyway). That has been our point all along. When you start talking street legal 'Ring times, the Viper ACR as equipped fails with respect to North American laws.

Try to run the 'Ring at the same speed without that splitter and see how well it does. I'll bet: not as well.

I'm sorry if that's offensive to you, but if you don't like it: get the laws changed. And feel free to argue the point, but please bear in mind my stance is backed by the established FMVSS (for what little good they may or may not be). Discuss those points, not the "excuses" you think I'm making.

jas

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The ACR record is accepted by just about every non biased authority that tracks the runs. Look it up.
Except vette fan-bois. Deal with it, you got trounced.
The stock factory production car comes with the splitter extension and adjustable shocks.
Nothing was aftermarket and nothing was on the car that didn't come with the production car.
Stop crying.

ViperJon said:

The ACR record is accepted by just about every non biased authority that tracks the runs. Look it up.
Except vette fan-bois. Deal with it, you got trounced.

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Again: it doesn't matter who accepts it. As BWright is consistently reminding people in other forums: you can't be a little illegal. You're either illegal or you're not. And the Viper ACR, as equipped, was illegal on US roads. Period. Does it mean it's illegal in other parts of the world? I dunno... perhaps not. But it falls afoul of our established vehicular safety laws given its (lack of) front bumper clearance.

As it turns out, the ZR1's time got beat pretty handily by the Ferrari 599XX too. But I don't care about that since the car isn't US street legal. Care to put your non-US-street-legal Viper ACR up against the Ferrari 599XX? It won't end well for you...

jas

Nitpick mode on... speaking about legal arguments, when a manufacturer rents a toll-road and turns it into a closed course (a.k.a. temporary racing track), wouldn't that effectively make it legal to use the track splitter?

What are you talking about? The Gen IV ACR was sold as a street legal car by dealers and registered and titled as street legal by the states. Where does this nonsense come from? I am starting to think that Chevy is doing a bit of stealth marketing here and that maybe it is time to put this entire thread into the Members Only subforum.

jvp said:

Again: it doesn't matter who accepts it. As BWright is consistently reminding people in other forums: you can't be a little illegal. You're either illegal or you're not. And the Viper ACR, as equipped, was illegal on US roads. Period. Does it mean it's illegal in other parts of the world? I dunno... perhaps not. But it falls afoul of our established vehicular safety laws given its (lack of) front bumper clearance.

As it turns out, the ZR1's time got beat pretty handily by the Ferrari 599XX too. But I don't care about that since the car isn't US street legal. Care to put your non-US-street-legal Viper ACR up against the Ferrari 599XX? It won't end well for you...

jas

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And the "authority" BWright that was quoted also claims the ACR was illegally lowered, despite the fact the car comes with adjustable shocks for different race conditions.
I mean seriously, how desperate are we clutching at straws here.

It's a moot point really since every authoritative listing of the 'Ring times has the ACR first.
So whether a few guys in the Vette forum disagree hardly matters.

I think we kinda got off track. The subj is the new Viper getting it's a$$ handed to it by the older ZR1. Plus the "Fear Factor" associated w/driving a Viper!!!! Which is a joke! IMO, the NEW Gen V Viper should be able to put the ZR1 on the Road Race Trailer and beat it at the Drag Strip too!!!! You've only got over 500ci. With a 2 year time lapse to have the
new Gen V Platform ready...this thing should have smoked the competition right out of the Box!

Lest we digress even more, I do have a question/comment regarding the MT comparo: Is there truly a 30 degree temp grade from head to foot? Was his head cold, or feet burning up? Was the Gen IV that uncomfortable to drive any distance/time in? Distracted on the track, (and apparently trying to stay alive) one is distracted, but what about the drive to the track? Do you need a doughnut cushion for your butt and need to drive barefoot with a fan on your feet?

Well I guess I'm late to the party, but in this case it's probably a good thing. The MT article in many ways is just another in a long line of articles written by an amateurish magazine by an amateur automotive journalist. Other than the track/performance tests the article reveals nothing. The flippant way in which the author talks about the new Viper and its perceived short comings is maddening; as if it was some sort of well documented and universally accepted joke.

It would have been nice to know if Randy drove the car in track mode or street mode, or both. What were the settings used for stability control. A car that under steers is usually a sign that stability control is on and if so, in which setting. If not, is there a problem with the chassis. I doubt it but these are things that curious people want to know.

Does the car drive like a “big” car or a small one. Another journalist described the car as behaving like a giant Elise. This is the ultimate complement because a car that weighs 3300 lbs. +/- and drives like one that weighs 2200 lbs is a very, very good thing; and anyone whose driven an Elise knows what I'm talking about.

What about the seats, are they really that uncomfortable. If they are using the exact same sabelt seat that Ferrari uses, then yes there is a lack of padding and the comfort level is diminished.
And yes tires do make a difference, but the Viper's suspension geometry needs to be tweaked. So, SRT missed an opportunity, but another has arisen. My Dad used to say when the going gets rough, the tough get going. This is an opportunity and I feel that SRT will rise to the challenge and will hopefully have time to sort it out before final production begins. My local dealer has a Launch Edition coming in, so I will have a chance to confirm or dispute the comments about the interior and seats.

Even you have to know how bad that sounds. Hahaha fmvss?

jvp said:

Facts are facts: as delivered to the 'Ring that car was not FMVSS legal. Period. Full stop. You don't have to accept it, like it, or even believe it. But it's true. It's why the car can't legally be delivered with its splitter attached from the dealer (I'm sure lots of dealers do it anyway). That has been our point all along. When you start talking street legal 'Ring times, the Viper ACR as equipped fails with respect to North American laws.

Try to run the 'Ring at the same speed without that splitter and see how well it does. I'll bet: not as well.

I'm sorry if that's offensive to you, but if you don't like it: get the laws changed. And feel free to argue the point, but please bear in mind my stance is backed by the established FMVSS (for what little good they may or may not be). Discuss those points, not the "excuses" you think I'm making.

jas

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jvp just lost any and all credibility if he is trying to claim that the ACR record was in anyway not legal. Tomball Dodge is literally right down the road from me and the cars that were taken over there were straight from the showroom floor.