Monday we find out who is faster at Laguna Seca, ZR1 or Gen V

Stealth · Dec 19, 2012

ViperSmith said:
Pretty much my thoughts. While it would have been fun for SRT to beat the ZR1 - who cares beyond marketers at SRT.

I doubt many can drive the car at that level - so it is a moot point. I know I'll never be able to. Hell, most with ZR1's can't either.

Personally, I can't wait for mine to arrive at my door.

Ahh... for this type of car, EVERYONE CARES! We want the Viper to be KOTH. Bring on the $115k Volado ACR with 700hp!

Stealth · Dec 19, 2012

elanderholm said:
As far as the brakes. They calipers and rotors are fine. The issue is the stock pads and fluid. It always is. /end brake discussion

Well said: Castrol SRF, SS Lines and reasonable pads. CCB not needed.

The facts are that SRT had the chance to properly benchmark the competition, come out with a NEW car and be KOTH. Under any analysis (even with different tires and braking and a tie in the test), the Gen V has not hit its mark. Perhaps there will be changes made before production cars are released?

Btw, I own a Gen IV Coupe and love it, so I am pulling for the Viper to improve.

elanderholm · Dec 19, 2012

Stealth said:
Well said: Castrol SRF, SS Lines and reasonable pads. CCB not needed.

The facts are that SRT had the chance to properly benchmark the competition, come out with a NEW car and be KOTH. Under any analysis (even with different tires and braking and a tie in the test), the Gen V has not hit its mark. Perhaps there will be changes made before production cars are released?

Btw, I own a Gen IV Coupe and love it, so I am pulling for the Viper to improve.

I disagree about it not hitting it's mark if the right tires were used. The stock Gen V would be as fast or faster then the outgoing Gen IV ACR. That is a lot faster on a track then the standard Gen IV. I personally believe with comparable tires it's just as fast or faster than the Gen IV in most if not all cases. That to me is successful.

The Gen V ACR should be a lot faster on a track then the standard Gen V and the outgoing Gen IV version regardless of tires, but if they can get the trofeo tires on the car before the ACR hits it will decimate everything...again. The standard Gen IV was never the fastest track ride in stock form. I'm not surprised this one isn't either, but it would be a lot more closer to the fastest if the tires were different.

question: is SRF silicon based? Do you need to change to SS lines to run it. Is it Dot 5 or Dot 5.1. One of the isn't compatible with most braking systems.

mjorgensen Woodhouse · Dec 19, 2012

I believe it was stated that all driver aid were turned off for this test.

SRT did revise the rear suspension to relocate the toe link, this helps the dynamics under hard cornering and corner exit.

As for needing to drive the car harder to reach the edge of the performance envelope I think Ralph is right. To get that last bit out of anything the car will need to be maximized for performance and balance when pushed to far. If it is set up to be a little more forgiving then the ultimate performance would probably be less. Even with the Gen4 it rewarded the brave driver IMO anyway. Once you lost the fear you get at the edge it would drive around anything out there even without the aid of aero, but more so with of course.

bcmarly said:
Well I guess I'm late to the party, but in this case it's probably a good thing. The MT article in many ways is just another in a long line of articles written by an amateurish magazine by an amateur automotive journalist. Other than the track/performance tests the article reveals nothing. The flippant way in which the author talks about the new Viper and its perceived short comings is maddening; as if it was some sort of well documented and universally accepted joke.

It would have been nice to know if Randy drove the car in track mode or street mode, or both. What were the settings used for stability control. A car that under steers is usually a sign that stability control is on and if so, in which setting. If not, is there a problem with the chassis. I doubt it but these are things that curious people want to know.

Does the car drive like a “big” car or a small one. Another journalist described the car as behaving like a giant Elise. This is the ultimate complement because a car that weighs 3300 lbs. +/- and drives like one that weighs 2200 lbs is a very, very good thing; and anyone whose driven an Elise knows what I'm talking about.

What about the seats, are they really that uncomfortable. If they are using the exact same sabelt seat that Ferrari uses, then yes there is a lack of padding and the comfort level is diminished.
And yes tires do make a difference, but the Viper's suspension geometry needs to be tweaked. So, SRT missed an opportunity, but another has arisen. My Dad used to say when the going gets rough, the tough get going. This is an opportunity and I feel that SRT will rise to the challenge and will hopefully have time to sort it out before final production begins. My local dealer has a Launch Edition coming in, so I will have a chance to confirm or dispute the comments about the interior and seats.

yellowmz3 · Dec 19, 2012

The beauty of the 458, R8, ZR1, GTR... lies in their ability to be driven to the limit without worrying if your life insurance in paid in full. How far beyond the 'envelope' do you need to drive to 'close the gap'?

elanderholm · Dec 19, 2012

yellowmz3 said:
The beauty of the 458, R8, ZR1, GTR... lies in their ability to be driven to the limit without worrying if your life insurance in paid in full. How far beyond the 'envelope' do you need to drive to 'close the gap'?

wat? car needs new tires.

all those cars are more then capable of killing you when you turn all the nannies off. Some of them are very hairy on the edge too. If you aren't fighting over steer out of every corner and trail braking oversteer into every corner you aren't driving any car hard enough or it's setup weird or doesn't have enough power.

ipetrov · Dec 19, 2012

Anyone else notice that 'SRT Engineers' spent no less than 2.5 hours viewing this thread just today?

Sometimes confidentiality and various strategic legal/marketing constraints can prevent the direct communication with the car's creators that we all desire (although a quick read through SRT Engineers past posts reveals just how incredibly accessible those hardworking folks are to the owner base!!). Judging by every little hint we can get, even including Ralph's semi-informational tweets, SRT is taking the matter very seriously. Seems like expressed performance concerns will be addressed one way or another and this track test will not be the last chapter of this book.

Kratos · Dec 19, 2012

This is crazy.....Is this gonna go to 40 pages??... :omg:

...

Jerome Sparich · Dec 19, 2012

You are showing a pic of the new Trofeo R that is not even out yet in the US. Spring '13 is what I heard.

*The "regular" Trofeo is said to be 2 seconds a lap faster than the MPSC on a 2min/lap track. The "R's" should be much better yet.

* P-car racers.

elanderholm said:
tire differences:
corsa (i'm assuming the one on the right):

You must be registered for see images

trofeo:

You must be registered for see images attach

mpsc:

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I think it's pretty obvious the tires are very different.

ipetrov · Dec 19, 2012

^ if the above about the Trofeo R is true, a gen V ACR with Trofeo R's might as well break the 7.00 minute barrier at Nurburgring... An ACR-X with 640 hp, MPSC and the old chassis (although gutted down) is already at 7.03 min.

elanderholm · Dec 19, 2012

ipetrov said:
^ if the above about the Trofeo R is true, a gen V ACR with Trofeo R's might as well break the 7.00 minute barrier at Nurburgring... An ACR-X with 640 hp, MPSC and the old chassis (although gutted down) is already at 7.03 min.

acr-x was running slicks...pretty sure of that.

JBsZ06 · Dec 19, 2012

Controversy sells magazines..chalk this up to that.

Nothing more and nothing less.

I'm a vette guy and still it's quite clear what motor trend did here

elanderholm · Dec 19, 2012

Jerome Sparich said:
You are showing a pic of the new Trofeo R that is not even out yet in the US. Spring '13 is what I heard.

*The "regular" Trofeo is said to be 2 seconds a lap faster than the MPSC on a 2min/lap track. The "R's" should be much better yet.

* P-car racers.

http://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww/en/news/2012/01/27/p-zero™-trofeo-r-the-2012-track-days-newcomer/
So the tire I showed a picture of is different than this one?

The article is from jan 2012 and they won't be out until next year? :dunno:

This is the basic trofeo tire:
http://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww/en/c...l?url=?subtype=MOTORSPORT&category=TRACK+DAYS

Regardless, they are much different than the corsa and much more akin to the cup tires. I hadn't heard they were that much faster than the cups.

edit: pretty sure you can order the Rs now
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=721383

Anyone tested these yet?
http://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww/en/ca..._trofeo_r.html

I just today got shipment but it will take 1-2 weeks until I get these under my car. Treadwear is 60, as you can see. This Trefeo R is a new model, Pirelli started deliveries just last month as far as I know.

This is from July. He posts pictures of the tires in his garage too.

GTS-R 001 · Dec 19, 2012

I think at this point, unless SRT decides to make a tire change (keep in mind they c[FONT=Calibri, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial]onsciously [/FONT] moved away from the Cup tires for some reason, so they may very well have a reason we are unaware of for not going with a "cup equivalent tire" now) that, they now have to figure out what to do to win without major changes etc.

I don't think from a marketing point of view telling everyone that it just takes bigger balls to drive the viper hard enough to beat a vette, that should not be the test. The Viper should beat the vette with similar effort and absolutely KILL IT when BIG BALL DRIVING is applied.

Maybe its time for SRT to chime in with a few comments, they must already know what they need to do,

ipetrov · Dec 19, 2012

My bad. Got a little overexcited. As Mr. Wolf would eloquently put it: let's not start sucking each other's ..... quite yet.

However, even the remote possibility of a new ACR registering a Ring time starting with a "6" helps put things in perspective and reversing this thread's negative sentiment a bit. After all, which Hill or which Ring was the regular Gen IV or the regular Gen III King of? I think none. So why are we expecting the regular (track-packed or not) gen V to conquer the top spot at every track?

elanderholm said:
acr-x was running slicks...pretty sure of that.

bluestreak · Dec 19, 2012

Jerome Sparich said:
You are showing a pic of the new Trofeo R that is not even out yet in the US. Spring '13 is what I heard.

*The "regular" Trofeo is said to be 2 seconds a lap faster than the MPSC on a 2min/lap track. The "R's" should be much better yet.

* P-car racers.

porsche guys compare them to n1 spec mpsc which are specially designed for porsche oem. They are simar to corsas in that aspect. Not nearly as fast as regular mpsc. Real mpsc like what come on the gen iv, z06 and zr1 are faster. Just dont come in porsche sizes.

bcmarly · Dec 19, 2012

mjorgensen Woodhouse said:
I believe it was stated that all driver aid were turned off for this test.

SRT did revise the rear suspension to relocate the toe link, this helps the dynamics under hard cornering and corner exit.

As for needing to drive the car harder to reach the edge of the performance envelope I think Ralph is right.

Thanks, I realize the toe link was relocated,..... but to suggest we need to drive the car harder than Randy in order to get that list bit is asking a lot. I still believe SRT needs to tweek the suspension. I did re read the article and I couldn't find where they had turned off the 4 stage stability controls.

Jerome Sparich · Dec 19, 2012

elanderholm said:
http://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww/en/news/2012/01/27/p-zero™-trofeo-r-the-2012-track-days-newcomer/
So the tire I showed a picture of is different than this one?
You listed it as a "Trofeo", not the Trofeo R which it is. Two differant tires.

The article is from jan 2012 and they won't be out until next year?
I am waiting for 4. If you can show me where to buy them I would appreciate it.

This is the basic trofeo tire:
http://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww/en/c...l?url=?subtype=MOTORSPORT&category=TRACK+DAYS

Regardless, they are much different than the corsa and much more akin to the cup tires. I hadn't heard they were that much faster than the cups.

edit: pretty sure you can order the Rs now
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=721383

This is from July. He posts pictures of the tires in his garage too.

Finland, Not U.S.A.[/COLOR]

In bold above.

bluestreak said:
porsche guys compare them to n1 spec mpsc which are specially designed for porsche oem. They are simar to corsas in that aspect. Not nearly as fast as regular mpsc. Real mpsc like what come on the gen iv, z06 and zr1 are faster. Just dont come in porsche sizes.

So you are saying that the MPSC designed for the P-car is slower than a regular MPSC? Why would Michelin do such a thing?

elanderholm · Dec 19, 2012

Jerome Sparich said:
In bold above

got it. i just noticed that. interesting, but regardless not produced in sizes that are even close to fitting the rear of the Gen 5 at this point.

MTGTS · Dec 19, 2012

Jerome Sparich said:
You are showing a pic of the new Trofeo R that is not even out yet in the US. Spring '13 is what I heard.

*The "regular" Trofeo is said to be 2 seconds a lap faster than the MPSC on a 2min/lap track. The "R's" should be much better yet.

* P-car racers.

The Trefeo R's are out, my business partner has them on his Lambo SL. He loves them.

MTGTS · Dec 19, 2012

ipetrov said:
^ if the above about the Trofeo R is true, a gen V ACR with Trofeo R's might as well break the 7.00 minute barrier at Nurburgring... An ACR-X with 640 hp, MPSC and the old chassis (although gutted down) is already at 7.03 min.

X was on full Michelin Slicks, not even close to any tire discussed in this thread. They are SECONDS faster per lap than a Hoosier.

bluestreak · Dec 19, 2012

Jerome Sparich said:
So you are saying that the MPSC designed for the P-car is slower than a regular MPSC? Why would Michelin do such a thing?

that's exactly what I'm saying.....

Some compromises had to be made for wet weather handling and longevity. They update the tire every so often. Started at N0 and then N1,N2,N3,N4 and all of them are slower than regular MPSC. It rains and snows a lot in Europe, Porsche sells a lot of GT3,Turbo,GT2. They were not going to set all of those cars up to be in the ditch.

stingray23 · Dec 19, 2012

Jerome Sparich said:
In bold above.

So you are saying that the MPSC designed for the P-car is slower than a regular MPSC? Why would Michelin do such a thing?

Porsche people want you to believe that.

1badacr · Dec 19, 2012

bluestreak said:
For road racing n/a is far greater than supercharger for a number of reasons. If the Z07 had a better motor it would in fact be a better car. As it stands its still a better platform (meaning naturally aspirated). And in spite of a huge hp deficit the z07 is right on the heels of the zr1 proving that point.

Are you aware of the major design flaw in the valve train of the Ls7's? , those motors pop on a regular basis, excessive valve guide wear
Is common, blown motors are common, btw the LS9 has shown excessive wear as well, it is only a mater of time until those start popping as well.
All this racing talk, people seem to forget that the Ls motors are ticking time bombs.

vancouver-gts · Dec 19, 2012

Deja vu, my 99 GTS came with inferior brakes for a performance car. Just upgrading with the DBB kit made a huge improvement in braking distance. Why on earth srt engineers didn't choose the right pads for the MT test run as member elanderholm suggests? The ZR1 clearly outbraked the Viper IMO. Reading MT's evaluation, slalom test showed the car producing great speed and G numbers with the so called inferior Pirellis! Chrysler always seem to short cut here and there. Had a 68 Charger Daytona, 68 Barracuda and 72 Challenger, they always had some issues right out of the showroom floor,LOL I'm sure srT will make the car shine. Unfortunately some damage to the image of the new car has been done, according to some of my bowtie fanboy freinds,grrr.

plumcrazy · Dec 19, 2012

if Evan Smith was driving this whole discussion would be different

bluestreak · Dec 19, 2012

stingray23 said:
Porsche people want you to believe that.

Yeah, only they switch from oem MPSC to NT01 and go faster on the track. NT01 is not faster than real MPSC.

1badacr said:
Are you aware of the major design flaw in the valve train of the Ls7's? , those motors pop on a regular basis, excessive valve guide wear
Is common, blown motors are common, btw the LS9 has shown excessive wear as well, it is only a mater of time until those start popping as well.
All this racing talk, people seem to forget that the Ls motors are ticking time bombs.

Yes, I'm aware. But I didn't think that was relevant to my post since I was talking about the Z06 and ZR1 in comparison as race cars. The topic at that point was S/C vs Naturally Aspirated on the Corvette's. We veered off topic a bit since jvp was claiming the SC ZR1 is the best road racing car evar......... I'm at the track a lot and see C6 motors lighting up quite a bit.

bushido · Dec 19, 2012

Took a walk around the track today. It was quiet, no action,nobody. Just some marks in the gravel trap of somebody over shootin T2..

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TrackAire · Dec 19, 2012

bushido said:
Took a walk around the track today. It was quiet, no action,nobody. Just some marks in the gravel pit of somebody over shootin T2..

You must be registered for see images attach

Did each of those marks in the gravel pit appear to be about 355mm wide?? Just wondering :smirk:

Cheers,
George

bushido · Dec 19, 2012

TrackAire said:
Did each of those marks in the gravel pit appear to be about 355mm wide?? Just wondering

Cheers,
George

Damn bro you want me to go and measure them?

Monday we find out who is faster at Laguna Seca, ZR1 or Gen V

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