Monday we find out who is faster at Laguna Seca, ZR1 or Gen V

plumcrazy said:

if Evan Smith was driving this whole discussion would be different

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Forget Evan Smith, we need 1BADGTS. Where's he at? Someone light up the sphincter signal and let's get him in here.

ViperTony said:

Forget Evan Smith, we need 1BADGTS. Where's he at? Someone light up the sphincter signal and let's get him in here.

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I believe he went somewhere in the Asia. Good luck finding him.

In all seriousness, the Trofeo should have been the first pick performance tire by SRT if they were stuck with Pirellis. We love beating dead animals around here but I think it's about time someone from SRT chimed in.

bcmarly said:

Thanks, I realize the toe link was relocated,..... but to suggest we need to drive the car harder than Randy in order to get that list bit is asking a lot. I still believe SRT needs to tweek the suspension. I did re read the article and I couldn't find where they had turned off the 4 stage stability controls.

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Well that's because Randy stated that they were all off in the comments section, I have read almost any and all comments and threads about this so took me a while to find it...


from Randy Pobst
2 days ago
@rava2286 Good comment, rava2286 Bring 'em on, I say, and all they get is five laps on a green track. All stability controls off on both cars, as we do with all cars where it is possible for track testing. All natural, I call it. That way we see how it REALLY handles. You are quite correct about the slip angles and the confidence. The same is true for race cars. Confidence comes from control, and control allows the driver to more fully fill the friction circle. In other words, to use more of the maximum grip of the tires, all the time. That is the secret of speed.
LikeReply


Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests..._zr1_srt_viper_gts/viewall.html#ixzz2FYkoL3BI

Okay thanks.

Now I know why the new GenV is so ugly, it has been getting a beating at every track from the ZR1.

Zentenk said:

Now I know why the new GenV is so ugly, it has been getting a beating at every track from the ZR1.

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hmmmmmm
Honest
objective
intelligent
wears a bowtie

Just got a chuckle out of this on the Corvette board.

1badacr said:

Are you aware of the major design flaw in the valve train of the Ls7's? , those motors pop on a regular basis, excessive valve guide wear
Is common, blown motors are common, btw the LS9 has shown excessive wear as well, it is only a mater of time until those start popping as well.
All this racing talk, people seem to forget that the Ls motors are ticking time bombs.

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This is grossly overexaggerated. There were literally thousands upon thousands of z06's built and the "tracking" of blown motors due to the valve guide issue represents maybe 1%.

GTS-R 001 said:

OK Guys,

Being a present Viper owner and having bought and owned pretty much every generation of Viper made, I think I can make an accurate assessment of where we are at on this whole issue.

The Vette "feels" easier to drive at the limits, stated by Pobst, admitted to by Gilles, so we can consider this a FACT

Solution - maybe get a driver that has not spun a viper to drive both cars so there is no perceived limit? But then, Gilles even admits you have to push past the point of perceivable danger and he Viper will reward you.... I would say that maybe a few adjustments are in order so the new Viper "feels" less dangerous at the limit??? This would only help sales, not hurt it, it would help give the Viper a better reputation if people felt confident driving it versus scared of it. Either way, I would say this is a place that SRT should look at and focus on, making the Viper feel better is long overdue and if any changes can be made to do this should be done, the changes will reap the rewards of higher sales

If Sales are the goal, I personally think it is a mistake to tell everyone that a Viper will reward you if you push past where it feels safe, why not just make it feel safe?


The Vette comes with Carbon Ceramic Brakes, a $10,000 option, ($1700 each rotor to replace) The Vette out braked the Viper, whether the Viper was losing its brakes or not, is supposition, but I can see that maybe the Pobst/Viper in trying to compensate for not "pushing to the edge" Pobst overcompensated by braking harder and earlier which easily cost the Viper some time. So what is the solution? Bigger brakes? ACRX Brembo rotors and bigger pads? Brake cooling?

It looks like everybody at SRT should know what to do, maybe the track pack needs to come with a track alignment, brake cooling, etc. Simple, cheap changes that can result in a win versus a loss.

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Listen, as a viper guy, I understand you want to see this contest result in a win, but listen to yourself. You're essentially claiming a record holding racecar driver is a coward. Secondly, you want a kamikaze to step in, because you believe it will result in some winning time,mwhen I can tell you all it will result in is a wrecked Viper. Lastly, you speak as if this is a choice SRT made and could simply alter. The things that make the car have these characteristics arent exactly issues you can up and change on a whim...they are design integrated.

Even above all this, you need to think in the proper perspective. Even if this magical driver were put in the seat, 99.9%+ viper drivers are going to lose to a zr1 in a comparative scenario. The corvettes are simply cars that are easy to go fast in...bottom line. Vipers have always had the rep of being a bit sketchier to handle, but accept the car for what it is vs the corvette.

Its more exotic, is close enough in performance that it really isnt worth talking about and its a viper.

RC000E said:

This is grossly overexaggerated. There were literally thousands upon thousands of z06's built and the "tracking" of blown motors due to the valve guide issue represents maybe 1%.

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"tracking"? lol the quotations tell us all we need to know about that percentage.

Everybody knows Z06's have been going boom. Stock ones, modded ones. I know 6 people personally and of more people what I see at the track that have blown LS7's. Shop cars, shop customer cars, you name it. Mods ranged from completely stock, to tune, exhaust to heads cam. LS7's are not reliable motors, ESPECIALLY modded. LS3's are even worse. GM may have remedied some of the issues, but unless we quiz every Corvette that dumps oil on the track, we will not know which year it was.

There is no way to track the failures when GM denied many a warranty for people's cars showing signs of having been on track. Even if your 1% was official, still inaccurate.

I have no dog in this fight, I don't own a Corvette or a Viper. Had a built C5R C5 (which blew up 3x), sold it, had a deposit on a Viper until a shady dealer chased me away. But still have interest in both. Interested in owning a Gen V or ZR1 in the next year or so.

MTGTS said:

The Trefeo R's are out, my business partner has them on his Lambo SL. He loves them.

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Please ask him if he got them in the U.S., and also where. Thank you.
I know more than a few of us are waiting.
Not that this will really help me as I am waiting for Tire Rack to get in my new O.Z.'s and that also won't be until spring.

If there is a $14,600 option for paint, why can't there be a $10,000 option for CCB's?

I don't recall ever reading or hearing about any problems with the ACR's brakes. I find it odd that they would be problems now, especially when it looks like the Gen V has even more brake cooling. I wonder what has changed.

RC000E said:

Listen, as a viper guy, I understand you want to see this contest result in a win, but listen to yourself. You're essentially claiming a record holding racecar driver is a coward. Secondly, you want a kamikaze to step in, because you believe it will result in some winning time,mwhen I can tell you all it will result in is a wrecked Viper. Lastly, you speak as if this is a choice SRT made and could simply alter. The things that make the car have these characteristics arent exactly issues you can up and change on a whim...they are design integrated.

Even above all this, you need to think in the proper perspective. Even if this magical driver were put in the seat, 99.9%+ viper drivers are going to lose to a zr1 in a comparative scenario. The corvettes are simply cars that are easy to go fast in...bottom line. Vipers have always had the rep of being a bit sketchier to handle, but accept the car for what it is vs the corvette.

Its more exotic, is close enough in performance that it really isnt worth talking about and its a viper.

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Obviously reading comprehension is not one of your strong points,

I personally think that the way to offset the brake fade that was represented in the article is to add a few $$$ worth of brake cooling apparatus, it works on race cars that have the exact same brakes as on this viper last an entire race so it will work on this car, the ducts are already there, it just needs some hose and some shrouds, not rocket science here or a major design flaw that cannot be corrected, just needs an hour of labour and a few pieces of hardware.

The fix for the suspension is a better track alignment setting, again, not rocket science and if you can read you would see that that is what I was asking for them to do, set it up properly so it inspires confidence vs breed fear.

This time out is brought to you by Vipers & Chicks Pics.

mjorgensen Woodhouse said:

Well that's because Randy stated that they were all off in the comments section, I have read almost any and all comments and threads about this so took me a while to find it...


from Randy Pobst
2 days ago
@rava2286 Good comment, rava2286 Bring 'em on, I say, and all they get is five laps on a green track. All stability controls off on both cars, as we do with all cars where it is possible for track testing. All natural, I call it. That way we see how it REALLY handles. You are quite correct about the slip angles and the confidence. The same is true for race cars. Confidence comes from control, and control allows the driver to more fully fill the friction circle. In other words, to use more of the maximum grip of the tires, all the time. That is the secret of speed.
LikeReply


Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests..._zr1_srt_viper_gts/viewall.html#ixzz2FYkoL3BI

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Wait a minute. If the five laps criteria was on for the test then what was being tested was "How fast can Randy Pobst
go within five laps on a green track at Laguna in a ZR1?" and then "How fast can Randy Pobst go within five laps on a green track at Laguna in a Viper?" It was a test of Randy Pobst under those conditions not a car test! Try giving the test results to any physics teacher, math teacher or anyone involved in experimentation and claim you've proved which is the faster car and you'll get a big fat F. On the other hand claim that you've tested Randy Pobst's ability to . . . and you'll get an A. Also any marketing teacher will give you an A+ for all the free ink you've gotten for MT. You're actually testing Randy Pobst's ability to produce lap times under the given conditions of the test not the car's ability.

MMMMMM more times out needed during this post

GTS-R 001 said:

Obviously reading comprehension is not one of your strong points,

I personally think that the way to offset the brake fade that was represented in the article is to add a few $$$ worth of brake cooling apparatus, it works on race cars that have the exact same brakes as on this viper last an entire race so it will work on this car, the ducts are already there, it just needs some hose and some shrouds, not rocket science here or a major design flaw that cannot be corrected, just needs an hour of labour and a few pieces of hardware.

The fix for the suspension is a better track alignment setting, again, not rocket science and if you can read you would see that that is what I was asking for them to do, set it up properly so it inspires confidence vs breed fear.

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If you say so buddy. It's stock for stock, not stock vs modded/track aligned/race pads/brake ducts. I certainly expected the Viper to do better in the contest, but is a real profound issue that it didn't? The car still places itself in the category well, and with a fairly affordable pricetag for the rarity. Plus, give SRT a year or two to get some cash back in the bank and I'm sure you'll see improvements coming. Can't expect perfection out of the box.

bluestreak said:

"tracking"? lol the quotations tell us all we need to know about that percentage.

Everybody knows Z06's have been going boom. Stock ones, modded ones. I know 6 people personally and of more people what I see at the track that have blown LS7's. Shop cars, shop customer cars, you name it. Mods ranged from completely stock, to tune, exhaust to heads cam. LS7's are not reliable motors, ESPECIALLY modded. LS3's are even worse. GM may have remedied some of the issues, but unless we quiz every Corvette that dumps oil on the track, we will not know which year it was.

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The "tracking" that exists is that of a forum thread. For that matter I've been at Viper days where Vipers have puked an engine as well. I'm not saying that the LS7's don't have an issue, but put a set of heads on it for 1500 bucks if you're that concerned and you don't have a problem to worry about, even if you are in the small percentage that may have a problem. I've had countless Corvettes (stock and modded to 600+hp) and every one of them has been the most reliable cars I've owned next to daily driven Honda's. This is simply an issue that's been blown way out of proportion. I go to track events year round with Z06's everywhere and I've literally not seen ONE failure of an engine. I go to Corvette only race events at Leguna and Road America and never saw one Z06 drop. I build Factory Five GTM's turnkey and have used crate LS7's and LS3's and haven't had the first issue aside from an LS7 blowing a head gasket at the track due to an overheat condition, which is more the design issue of the FF GTM than anything.

All I'm saying is, you're talking about thousands upon thousands of cars, and there's a concentration of what...30 people on forums saying theirs blew up. That hardly represents the entire line. Fact is, you're talking about a pretty potent car for essentially no money. You can buy a C6Z in the 30's and you're generally going to be the fastest car at the track that isn't substantially modified or several times more expensive, if you're capable as a driver.

Jerome Sparich said:

Please ask him if he got them in the U.S., and also where. Thank you.
I know more than a few of us are waiting.
Not that this will really help me as I am waiting for Tire Rack to get in my new O.Z.'s and that also won't be until spring.

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He got them directly from Pirelli. I also believe that Bob Woodman tires has some every once in awhile.

I think I can add a interesting perspective since I was there at the test at Laguna Seca. A Porsche buddy and I noticed on Laguna Seca's web site calendar that Motor Trend was
renting the track on Tuesday Dec. 11. We drove up to see what was going on. We walked right up to the pit lane and saw the ZR1 and Viper being prepped for 2 lap warm up then a
4 lap run (one warm up, two hot, and one cool down). I can assure you that everything was on the up and up. The Motor Trend crew was very professional and Randy was just
waiting for them to finish their prep. He ran each car in that format. I couldn't believe how he was hammering both cars. No lifting on turn one which is pretty ballsy for a production car with no wing or aggressive aero. After each car he stepped out and had comments. He said the ZR1 handled way better than the earlier ZR1 from before. Four years of
adjustments and R rubber with 80 tread wear rating vs. 220 tread wear rating. Makes sense !! When he got out of the Viper he said it had more understeer and more oversteer
than the ZR1. He walked around the car and said maybe it's the bushing density or a toe in because it had a tendency to pull slightly to the left. He then walked behind and
observed the driver side rear wheel toe in. He's sharp !!!! I walked back there and also noticed it. You could see a definite toe in on the driver side rear. Since Laguna is a left turn
dominate track I wondered if SRT would set it up that way. I've since e-mailed Jonny Lieberman and he said that it didn't seem a issue as they would have picked it up on their
figure 8 test. Maybe I'm making something of nothing but I've read a bit about toe in manipulation for Nascar (crabbing) and how it can initiate a turn. Having only one rear tire
being toe'd in is interesting at best. The track was certainly green and the ZR1 went out first so it likely blew off some dust for the Viper. Advantage Viper. They also made comment
about both cars needing better brake fluid. Both cars came without tech help from the factories. MT crew really seemed excited for both cars and I didn't see any favoritism for
either car. The new Viper is a hot looking car and still blows away most everything. SRT will make adjustments and you will still have everything that you guys wanted in your new
snake. I love both cars and was thrilled to see the record fall. PROGRESS !!!

Sorry about the indents, I'll get it right next time.

While I will agree that it does at times get blown out of proportion, I mean it is the internet after all, I track year round too. Probably 15 events in 2012 and my experience has been vastly different. I think the ls3's poor reputation has not helped either. Early ls3's were a sure failure if you cornered hard enough. Some people cant tell the difference in the two cars. I have close friends and know too many people that have had their motors pop. Dont know the cause, just know they went. C6Z's some at the track, some on the street. I personally would not trust one on the track. Its a great bang for the buck but until I see them personally being driven like I drive and survive, I wont get one. The car is worthy of a forged motor.

RC000E said:

The "tracking" that exists is that of a forum thread. For that matter I've been at Viper days where Vipers have puked an engine as well. I'm not saying that the LS7's don't have an issue, but put a set of heads on it for 1500 bucks if you're that concerned and you don't have a problem to worry about, even if you are in the small percentage that may have a problem. I've had countless Corvettes (stock and modded to 600+hp) and every one of them has been the most reliable cars I've owned next to daily driven Honda's. This is simply an issue that's been blown way out of proportion. I go to track events year round with Z06's everywhere and I've literally not seen ONE failure of an engine. I go to Corvette only race events at Leguna and Road America and never saw one Z06 drop. I build Factory Five GTM's turnkey and have used crate LS7's and LS3's and haven't had the first issue aside from an LS7 blowing a head gasket at the track due to an overheat condition, which is more the design issue of the FF GTM than anything.

All I'm saying is, you're talking about thousands upon thousands of cars, and there's a concentration of what...30 people on forums saying theirs blew up. That hardly represents the entire line. Fact is, you're talking about a pretty potent car for essentially no money. You can buy a C6Z in the 30's and you're generally going to be the fastest car at the track that isn't substantially modified or several times more expensive, if you're capable as a driver.

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ACR steve said:

MMMMMM more times out needed during this post

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Because there is a white Gen 5 GTS in here:

http://blog.chryslerllc.com/blog.do?id=1990&p=entry

Good post *****. Uneven rear toe can definitely ruin ones confidence. The car will be very jittery. Alignment could have gotten knocked out of whack on the trailer to the track? Ill say again mpsc >>> corsa. Good thing is that the issuse are easily fixable and the viper botched run can be fixed.

You dont outrun one of the fastest cars on the planet with an off alignment, slower tires with a heavier luxury package. SRT needs to bring a-game. They can complain about the alignment issues or driver all day but even with all that you are not looking at a faster gts with corsas. Not going to happen.

The funny part is - all this talk of "the ACR not being legal at the Ring" - even if the GTS beat the ZR1 at Laguna and set a record, you'd have people say it wasn't legitimate because it wasn't a factory car, lmao.

Which I guess begs the question - why they even did it at all. But, I am satisfied with the results, even if others aren't - though I think it can do much better.

ViperSmith said:

Which I guess begs the question - why they even did it at all.

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Why else?

TO. SELL. MAGAZINES.

They, like the post office, are getting killed thanks to the internet. If there's a juicy enough story to write, they will write it, publish it and sell it. You really think a story about a 2013 Caravan is going to entice someone to buy a copy? NO. Otherwise this thread wouldn't be 20 pages long!

--RS

Well, what I gleemed from Skanks (extremely informative) post is that the comparo was all above board, both cars driven at their respective limits...legitimate victory for ZR1. Viper could have had better brakes, tires, allignment...but didn't. That was the car tested and it lost, plain and simple.

The MT guys told me that they invited McLaren with their new revised MP4-12C as well as the new Mercedes SLS Black Series but they declined. I guess they were worried that either Viper or Vette could outrun them. That's a real risk in showing up at a track with the Viper and Vette there.