Totaled Viper 2 days after buying it...

Street Serpent · Feb 16, 2013

Garron said:
Hey Matt,

I am on a pit crew for a comp coupe team. We run the same rear knuckles as the production viper (as did all the comp coupes). As you can imagine it can get rough out there.

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I don't buy the light swerve and knuckle breaking..... New owner in a viper, winter conditions and back end kicked out end of story. I am sorry it happened, but it is a drivers car.

AMEN brother!!!! Not buying the knuckle just breaking from swerving,hell I have been completely slideways plenty of times at Road Atlanta in my 06 coupe with no issues.From the looks of the ditch that this Viper ended up in, that most likely broke the knuckle.Just my .02 worth.

commandomatt · Feb 16, 2013

Street Serpent said:
AMEN brother!!!! Not buying the knuckle just breaking from swerving,hell I have been completely slideways plenty of times at Road Atlanta in my 06 coupe with no issues.From the looks of the ditch that this Viper ended up in, that most likely broke the knuckle.Just my .02 worth.

OK....I doubt either of you guys will bother considering the airbag recall then as well.

It just took Dodge until now to figure that one out. Even though they consider it a fraction of a % its still a big enough deal to issue a recall

Sure....it may never happen any of us, and I am not saying that the op's accident was because of it......just bringing up a possibility that due to the fact that there appears that the rear knuckle is breaking on a few cars raises the possibility that there may be a problem.....even if its only a limited number of cars.

And the pit crew line....sorry, I don't buy it. Not as a comparison in this case. You have probably inspected every nut and bolt on any of the cars you are working with, and that over and over again. Race cars are far more scrutinized than our street cars.

Matt

Street Serpent · Feb 16, 2013

commandomatt said:
OK....I doubt either of you guys will bother considering the airbag recall then as well.

It just took Dodge until now to figure that one out. Even though they consider it a fraction of a % its still a big enough deal to issue a recall

Sure....it may never happen any of us, and I am not saying that the op's accident was because of it......just bringing up a possibility that due to the fact that there appears that the rear knuckle is breaking on a few cars raises the possibility that there may be a problem.....even if its only a limited number of cars.

And the pit crew line....sorry, I don't buy it. Not as a comparison in this case. You have probably inspected every nut and bolt on any of the cars you are working with, and that over and over again. Race cars are far more scrutinized than our street cars.

Matt

Not going to comment on the air bag issue since it does not concern me being a 06 Viper owner,but I will state that the all of a sudden blame of the rear knuckles causing wrecks is surprising to me since I did track my 06 coupe and drove it very aggressively up the S.C.,N.C. and Georgia mountains with absolutely no issues besides just normal car control by the driver.

Sorry I don't believe in this case that it was a rear knuckle issue with a new owner of a Viper and snow on the ground and a ditch is involved.

Again,just my .02.

commandomatt · Feb 16, 2013

Street Serpent said:
Not going to comment on the air bag issue since it does not concern me being a 06 Viper owner,but I will state that the all of a sudden blame of the rear knuckles causing wrecks is surprising to me since I did track my 06 coupe and drove it very aggressively up the S.C.,N.C. and Georgia mountains with absolutely no issues besides just normal car control by the driver.

Sorry I don't believe in this case that it was a rear knuckle issue with a new owner of a Viper and snow on the ground and a ditch is involved.

Again,just my .02.

Ok .....I will try one more time.

I am saying that there could be a possibility that there is an issue.

You driving your 06 all across the country, tracking it or whatever, doesn't say anything other than that Your car may be ok. Just like the airbag issue. It doesn't affect ALL the cars made.

With your assumption, we can then also say that there is no problem with the window regulators in any of the Vipers....right ?

....and again, not saying that the op's accident was due to anything wrong with his car.

Matt

Street Serpent · Feb 16, 2013

commandomatt said:
Ok .....I will try one more time.

I am saying that there could be a possibility that there is an issue.

You driving your 06 all across the country, tracking it or whatever, doesn't say anything other than that Your car may be ok. Just like the airbag issue. It doesn't affect ALL the cars made.

With your assumption, we can then also say that there is no problem with the window regulators in any of the Vipers....right ?

....and again, not saying that the op's accident was due to anything wrong with his car.

Matt

OK,I will agree to disagree with you.And to think about it,the window regulator has not effected me either after 20,000 miles but there is a issue with them.

Good talking to ya,glad we both got our point across.

Garron · Feb 16, 2013

commandomatt said:
OK....I doubt either of you guys will bother considering the airbag recall then as well.
It just took Dodge until now to figure that one out. Even though they consider it a fraction of a % its still a big enough deal to issue a recall

Or they used same module in the jeep, found they had a problem on that model and decided to fix everything at once.

commandomatt said:
Sure....it may never happen any of us, and I am not saying that the op's accident was because of it......just bringing up a possibility that due to the fact that there appears that the rear knuckle is breaking on a few cars raises the possibility that there may be a problem.....even if its only a limited number of cars.

And the pit crew line....sorry, I don't buy it. Not as a comparison in this case. You have probably inspected every nut and bolt on any of the cars you are working with, and that over and over again. Race cars are far more scrutinized than our street cars.

Matt

You missed my point, the rear knuckle is the same material on the race car. You can check all the nuts and bolts all you want. It would not strengthen the part in question.

commandomatt · Feb 16, 2013

Garron said:
Or they used same module in the jeep, found they had a problem on that model and decided to fix everything at once.

You missed my point, the rear knuckle is the same material on the race car. You can check all the nuts and bolts all you want. It would not strengthen the part in question.

You missed my point as well. I was talking about the fact that you look at everything, top to bottom (every nut and bolt was just a way to put not actually referring to 'nuts and bolts') on a race car far more closely than most anyone would look at and continuously inspect a street car. You see something out of order you will deal with it before taking any chances

And correct me if I am wrong, but is there not a strengthening kit/fix/support for this part available ? I really don't know but I think I have seen it on this forum. Why has that been developed if there is zero problem with this part ?

Matt

commandomatt · Feb 16, 2013

Street Serpent said:
OK,I will agree to disagree with you.And to think about it,the window regulator has not effected me either after 20,000 miles but there is a issue with them.

Good talking to ya,glad we both got our point across.

Got an 06 as well and keeping my fingers crossed that I wont have the deal with any regulators at any point. You having zero issue at 20K is a good sign

Matt

Garron · Feb 16, 2013

commandomatt said:
You missed my point as well. I was talking about the fact that you look at everything, top to bottom (every nut and bolt was just a way to put not actually referring to 'nuts and bolts') on a race car far more closely than most anyone would look at and continuously inspect a street car. You see something out of order you will deal with it before taking any chances

In the first picture I see a car with both front wheels pointed inward, The front frame peeled upward, Snow on the ground, the rear wheel broken and someone who had the car for two days. You are telling me you honestly believe the rear wheel caused this accident

TrevorR90 · Feb 16, 2013

Well.. The car did a sharp right like as if I completely turned the wheel right when I ****** the wheel to the left.. I was going 80mph... You people were not in the car when it happened so how are you going to not "buy my story".... If it happened any other way or I was racing or speeding or doing something.. I sure as hell would have never posted this at all and there wouldn't even be a discussion on this. Some of you guys should rethink your logic.. When I wrecked I had no idea what the hell happened. I have a 600 rwhp Cobra that I have driven in the winter, mine even has drag radials on it.. Its not my first supercharged mustang as well. I have swerved in that car plenty of times, nothing like what this car did.. I don't know if the car had the stock run flats. I had to drive some distance to get it and I brought it back home..

Regarding the guys dumb logic about his track car never having the issue.... You should rethink your logic because you are clearly showing your intelligence.. I'm typing this on my 17" macbook. It has run flawlessly for a year so far.. Not everyone's 17" macbook has run flawlessly and a lot of them have broken due to some unknown reason or manufacturer defect. Just because my macbook has run flawlessly for a year so far does not mean EVERY SINGLE MACBOOK IN EXISTENCE RUNS FLAWLESSLY REGARDLESS OF HOW ITS USED.

Boxer12 · Feb 17, 2013

This is a bummer of a thread...A lot of people secure the car to the trailer using the wishbones..and these are cast aluminum parts not meant to handle pressure in that direction. A hairline crack is possible and you could get a metallurgical inspection if you want. Anything is possible, but also I would say that if you are going 80 mph on a crowned roadway, it doesn't take much of a swerve and correction to get out of control esp on crappy Michelin tires...and who knows what kind of alignment the car had? Way too many variables here, but I would agree with the FAA, its probably pilot error (we KNOW you were going faster than the posted speed limit

). Glad you walked away without a scratch. Get another one, and have fun.

TrackAire · Feb 17, 2013

Boxer12 said:
This is a bummer of a thread...A lot of people secure the car to the trailer using the wishbones..and these are cast aluminum parts not meant to handle pressure in that direction. A hairline crack is possible and you could get a metallurgical inspection if you want. Anything is possible, but also I would say that if you are going 80 mph on a crowned roadway, it doesn't take much of a swerve and correction to get out of control esp on crappy Michelin tires...and who knows what kind of alignment the car had? Way too many variables here, but I would agree with the FAA, its probably pilot error (we KNOW you were going faster than the posted speed limit ). Glad you walked away without a scratch. Get another one, and have fun.

Funny you mentioned using the wishbones as tie down points....looks like the tow truck operator is to blame for bending this rear suspension piece if you look at the first photo of the car on the flatbed :smirk:

What I don't understand is the car was going about 80 mph in the rain??.....looks pretty wet in the crash photos.

There are a lot of variables and the real answer will probably never be known. What would help tremendously is if Trevor would post pictures of the actual part that failed (hub, toe link, etc???). Get plenty of close up photos so if this happens to other cars we can have an actual data log of what and where the parts are failing.

Glad nobody was hurt.

George

Timnineside · Feb 17, 2013

Bummer.

Not many places is 80mph not considered speeding.........

Drew · Feb 17, 2013

80mph, near freezing conditions, snow on the ground and michelins....too fast in my book for the road conditions

tattooed · Feb 17, 2013

I'm not going to pass judgement on this particular incident, but the rear knuckle "weakness / design flaw / bad batch problem" is known and pretty well documented.

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/660606/

Drew · Feb 17, 2013

Clip of tow truck exerting enough force to pop one

http://youtu.be/DjwNv8SJKXU

ViperGTS · Feb 17, 2013

snow on the ground = no go! (Viper)
you learned your lesson ... :crazy2:

hopefully.

the rest is smack talk, nonsense...

tbsviper · Feb 17, 2013

TrevorR90 said:
. Car's is obviously totaled and I only bought it 2 days prior. Never got on it or anything, never had it passed 80mph or even got to hear it roar....

This statement seems to have caused some confusion. I read it as you did not exceed 80 mph in your two days of ownership. Others interpreted you were doing 80 and swerved. Which is it?

tbsviper · Feb 17, 2013

Drew said:
Clip of tow truck exerting enough force to pop one

http://youtu.be/DjwNv8SJKXU

thanks for posting that video.

georgethedog · Feb 17, 2013

Back to the tires. I want to make it clear to you that you should have inspected the tires before purchase. By inspection I mean "DOT date code". If you do not know what that is just do a Google search and read. Even if there is plenty of tread left, if they are more than a few years old (3-4) they will be hard and will not grip well, period. This may not have led to your accident, but it is something to know about when you buy another and may save you in the future. There are a lot of low miles 03-06 Vipers out there with original tires that look great, but in reality are old and dangerous. Best of luck.

Garron · Feb 17, 2013

TrevorR90 said:
Well.. The car did a sharp right like as if I completely turned the wheel right when I ****** the wheel to the left.. I was going 80mph... You people were not in the car when it happened so how are you going to not "buy my story".... If it happened any other way or I was racing or speeding or doing something.. I sure as hell would have never posted this at all and there wouldn't even be a discussion on this. Some of you guys should rethink your logic.. When I wrecked I had no idea what the hell happened. I have a 600 rwhp Cobra that I have driven in the winter, mine even has drag radials on it.. Its not my first supercharged mustang as well. I have swerved in that car plenty of times, nothing like what this car did.. I don't know if the car had the stock run flats. I had to drive some distance to get it and I brought it back home..

Regarding the guys dumb logic about his track car never having the issue.... You should rethink your logic because you are clearly showing your intelligence.. I'm typing this on my 17" macbook. It has run flawlessly for a year so far.. Not everyone's 17" macbook has run flawlessly and a lot of them have broken due to some unknown reason or manufacturer defect. Just because my macbook has run flawlessly for a year so far does not mean EVERY SINGLE MACBOOK IN EXISTENCE RUNS FLAWLESSLY REGARDLESS OF HOW ITS USED.

You forgot to mention the deer your latest story. He clearly states he was going 80mph in the Quote above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K0Vd_r24Yo&feature=endscreen&NR=1

VIPER R · Feb 17, 2013

Were they original run-flats or not? This is a crucial point in the discussion.

MikeG · Feb 17, 2013

Sorry for your loss, and most importantly, glad you were not injured.

I've had my snake 2 years and 8 months. I try never to drive it on wet roads and never to drive at night. Of course, not always possible, but this is what I try to do, for obvious safety reasons.

About hitting deer ..... there is no good or safe way to hit them. Even head on, particularly in a low profile car, they have a tendency to come up over the front end, and end up going through the windshield (windscreen for you chaps up north) and ending up in your lap. If you are lucky, the antlers won't have punctured any vital organs.

When driving, I drive it like I do a Bike ...... constantly maneuvering (safely) to leave myself an "Out" to avoid the unexpected.

Adverse weather is a Viper's worst nemesis.

AZTVR · Feb 17, 2013

Always remember the phrase "steer into the deer ." That would be hard for me to think to do with 0.2sec reaction time and no practice. Its somewhat counter intuitive to me. I have in my head a picture of that driving exercise at the Bondurant school !

viperbilliam · Feb 17, 2013

You were driving on summer tires in winter weather and wide ones at that which in wet weather is a horrible combination. Hard tires like the runflats even worse. You're practically skating on ice. 80 mph plus swerve in these conditions = no traction. Even if it wasn't wet, I wouldn't have been going faster than 60 (I know, it's tough to cruise in Viper less than 80) in those conditions, especially with deer around. Can't find winter or even all-season tires for these cars. Sorry you had such a horrible intro to your Viper!

LifeIsGood · Feb 17, 2013

...glad you're okay. The whole story was ripe for something bad to happen...new owner, wet conditions, deer...another one bites the dust. Good luck if you decide to purchase another one.

AZTVR · Feb 17, 2013

TrackAire said:
What would help tremendously is if Trevor would post pictures of the actual part that failed (hub, toe link, etc???). Get plenty of close up photos so if this happens to other cars we can have an actual data log of what and where the parts are failing.

I'd also like to see the fracture faces in a detailed hi-res macro photo, if there is a piece of suspension broken rather than bent. What you want to look for is whether the entire area of the fracture face looks the same, or if there is part of it that is colored differently and possibly has a different grain structure. If there was a fracture that slowly propagated; and then broke, you will not see the whole fracture face having the same appearance.

JoelW · Feb 17, 2013

Great post. I am a bike rider too and deer can come out of nowhere with almost zero time to react. You have to constantly look for them and this time of year they are seldom alone - especially the does. About a month ago I had 3 come out of the woods in front of me at twilight and they are almost invisible. Before that experience, I stopped for a big buck and damned if he didn't try to jump over my car. Over course he didn't make it and did $2000 damage and I was stopped in the road! Don't know what the new owner was doing but hitting a deer in a Viper is almost begging for it to come through the windshield. Just no safe way to deal with deer. New tires, old experienced driver or newbie with maypops deer are just dangerous and you have to keep your head on a swivel to avoid them - and then you need some luck too!

MikeG said:
Sorry for your loss, and most importantly, glad you were not injured.

I've had my snake 2 years and 8 months. I try never to drive it on wet roads and never to drive at night. Of course, not always possible, but this is what I try to do, for obvious safety reasons.

About hitting deer ..... there is no good or safe way to hit them. Even head on, particularly in a low profile car, they have a tendency to come up over the front end, and end up going through the windshield (windscreen for you chaps up north) and ending up in your lap. If you are lucky, the antlers won't have punctured any vital organs.

When driving, I drive it like I do a Bike ...... constantly maneuvering (safely) to leave myself an "Out" to avoid the unexpected.

Adverse weather is a Viper's worst nemesis.

lmcgrew79 · Feb 17, 2013

Im gonna go out on a limb and say if the rear right knuckle was to break and he was turning left the car would have went left even quicker and not right. +1 on the age of the tires, black ice? i drove home in it last night its hard to know its slick until you brake, turn or accelerate. Also as everyone has said summer tires are hard in sub 60 degree weather, they need heat to have traction. I would say the knuckle broke sometime during impact.

My simple theory

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FrgMstr · Feb 17, 2013

Sour grapes from someone looking to blame someone other than themselves. Buck up, be a man. You effed up and made some bad decisions. Be a man.

Totaled Viper 2 days after buying it...

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