Viper V-10 recieving upgrades in future?

kdaviper · Jun 13, 2013

From What I can gather from Allpar and WI SRTs, chrysler's big engine lineup will look like this:
5.7L:400 HP
6.4L:500HP
6.2L(Hellcat):650 to 700HP

As far as the Viper engine, WISRTs member craigd says,"High notes V-10 is working on their upgrades..."
No word on what kinds of upgrades it will see, or possible output numbers, but it would be nice to see it clear the Hellcat's output if possible.

mnc2886 · Jun 13, 2013

kdaviper said:
From What I can gather from Allpar and WI SRTs, chrysler's big engine lineup will look like this:
5.7L:400 HP
6.4L:500HP
6.2L(Hellcat):650 to 700HP

As far as the Viper engine, WISRTs member craigd says,"High notes V-10 is working on their upgrades..."
No word on what kinds of upgrades it will see, or possible output numbers, but it would be nice to see it clear the Hellcat's output if possible.

Hellcat looks like it would be FI. However, I don't know how much the engineers will push the V-10. They have historically seemed conservative on everything except displacement. I don't even think and increase in compression will occur until the engine is moved to DI. I hope I'm wrong, but I don't see the V10 getting any power upgrades this generation. JMHO...

ringram · Jun 13, 2013

DI would be nice, as per the LT1 with some extra comp and better camming/heads

madninjaskillz · Jun 13, 2013

Given those hp numbers, the V10 must evolve or die. That doesn't forebode good portents.

ringram · Jun 13, 2013

Gen6 will probably get FI IMO.
Cheaper, lighter, more efficient and more power. Whats the downside?
Sad but true..

ViperSmith · Jun 13, 2013

High revving, small displacement V10, high output - would be fantastic.

Steve M · Jun 13, 2013

ringram said:
Gen6 will probably get FI IMO.
Cheaper, lighter, more efficient and more power. Whats the downside?
Sad but true..

The downside? Heat generated, and extra weight to try and dissipate said heat. Look no further than the curb weight difference between a ZR1 and ZO6 Vette, or a ZL1 vs. Z/28 (or SS) Camaro, etc.

You don't get something for nothing.

I'm still waiting for the inevitable "must be DOHC" post.

SRTviper · Jun 13, 2013

DOHC is nonesense. It is not needed. ti-vct would be nice, along with AFM, and DI. Also an adjustable exhaust should be a must. I'm shocked it isn't already on this car when even a base corvette has it.

Steve M · Jun 13, 2013

SRTviper said:
DOHC is nonesense. It is not needed. ti-vct would be nice, along with AFM, and DI. Also an adjustable exhaust should be a must. I'm shocked it isn't already on this car when even a base corvette has it.

The dual mode exhaust makes sense on the Vette because you can easily bypass the mufflers with the layout they have chosen. On a Viper, bypassing the muffler really isn't an option, at least not with the current configuration. If they ran the exhaust out the back, it could be an option.

AFM on a performance car? No. Most of the AFM stuff I've seen from GM also requires an automatic transmission to compensate for the inherent clunkiness of cylinders activating and deactivating.

JoelW · Jun 13, 2013

SteveM Clunkiness? I have an "old" 2005 Magnum RT with cylinder deactivation on the 5.7. No clunks and you can barely feel any change when you accelerate. I can imagine the new versions are even better. Oh, did I mention it gets 23-25 mpg at 70? Of course, I can get over 20 with the Viper in 6th at 80 if I'm smooth, not that I ever go that fast.

madninjaskillz · Jun 13, 2013

JoelW said:
SteveM Clunkiness? I have an "old" 2005 Magnum RT with cylinder deactivation on the 5.7. No clunks and you can barely feel any change when you accelerate. I can imagine the new versions are even better. Oh, did I mention it gets 23-25 mpg at 70? Of course, I can get over 20 with the Viper in 6th at 80 if I'm smooth, not that I ever go that fast.

No one ever does. =P

Steve M · Jun 13, 2013

JoelW said:
SteveM Clunkiness? I have an "old" 2005 Magnum RT with cylinder deactivation on the 5.7. No clunks and you can barely feel any change when you accelerate. I can imagine the new versions are even better. Oh, did I mention it gets 23-25 mpg at 70? Of course, I can get over 20 with the Viper in 6th at 80 if I'm smooth, not that I ever go that fast.

Is it an automatic, or manual?

MoparMap · Jun 13, 2013

ViperSmith said:
High revving, small displacement V10, high output - would be fantastic.

I really hope they can stay with their large displacement formula as long as possible. I like the massive off-idle torque these engines can generate. I don't want an F1 style Italian engine that you have to wind to 5 grand just to get moving.

JoelW · Jun 13, 2013

Automatic - but as far as I know, all Magnums came automatic. I can see where you are going, but friends that have manuals in Challengers haven't complained about clunkiness - course you have to be in a cruise state for it to work right. I don't know if it comes on and off in lower gears. In my car at least, you need to be steady state cruise for it to engage. It drops in and out seamlessly on the interstate and if it goes into the mode around town, I can't tell it. I know city driving drops mpg to high teens. But even it were a bit "clunky" it would be nothing compared to the driveline clunkiness in my Viper - especially at low speeds. But that's part of the charm isn't it?

Steve M said:
Is it an automatic, or manual?

Steve M · Jun 13, 2013

JoelW said:
Automatic - but as far as I know, all Magnums came automatic. I can see where you are going, but friends that have manuals in Challengers haven't complained about clunkiness - course you have to be in a cruise state for it to work right. I don't know if it comes on and off in lower gears. In my car at least, you need to be steady state cruise for it to engage. It drops in and out seamlessly on the interstate and if it goes into the mode around town, I can't tell it. I know city driving drops mpg to high teens. But even it were a bit "clunky" it would be nothing compared to the driveline clunkiness in my Viper - especially at low speeds. But that's part of the charm isn't it?

The clunkiness you aren't seeing (but is still there) is being absorbed by the torque converter.

Additionally, the only Challengers I see offering Chrysler's MDS are automatics, not manuals.

http://www.dodge.com/en/performance/2013/

ViperSmith · Jun 13, 2013

MoparMap said:
I really hope they can stay with their large displacement formula as long as possible. I like the massive off-idle torque these engines can generate. I don't want an F1 style Italian engine that you have to wind to 5 grand just to get moving.

The days are numbered, how long it will be is the question. Chevy is already seeing the writing on the wall with the C7.

As long as it is still high performance, I don't mind a high revving smaller V10 - just don't ding abilities.

jsd512 · Jun 13, 2013

Not trying to be a dick, but predictions as of late have been off quite a bit. I remember when guys said the V10 would be making 670HP, oops. The guy from WISRT said a lot about the upcoming Dart SRT, oops. I'll believe it when I see it. I do believe DI is coming, along with more HP/TQ. They need it badly, the Viper is slow.

JoelW · Jun 13, 2013

You're probably right. I haven't priced a new car with a 6 speed and Chrysler does offer the MDS with auto and non - MDS engine with manual only. Regardless of whether I can feel it or not because of the converter, I like it on my Magnum and it does get great gas mileage for a V8. Maybe it is a computer design challenge problem or maybe they think folks with manual transmissions don't care how much gas they use. Either way, we won't see cylinder deactivation on a Viper. We are more about cylinder activation.

ViperSmith · Jun 13, 2013

jsd512 said:
Not trying to be a dick, but predictions as of late have been off quite a bit. I remember when guys said the V10 would be making 670HP, oops. The guy from WISRT said a lot about the upcoming Dart SRT, oops. I'll believe it when I see it. I do believe DI is coming, along with more HP/TQ. They need it badly, the Viper is slow.

lmao, that is funny

VENOM V · Jun 13, 2013

ViperSmith said:
lmao, that is funny

Actually, he is trying to be a dick, and succeeded, LOL

SilveRT8 · Jun 13, 2013

VENOM V said:
Actually, he is trying to be a dick, and succeeded, LOL

WOW ! And he said he wasn't even trying ! Must be a Natural ! (LOL)
But if it helps getting us more HP, then I'm one too !

I Bin Therbefor · Jun 13, 2013

All it takes is cubic money!

By changing the block material to an aluminum carbon fiber composite alloy, you can get the strength in the cylinder walls you need to increase the bore a bit. Several after market folks make heads, including MoPar (I believe), that flow a bit better. And then there's always DI. As for heat management, you can coat the heads, pistons and exhaust passages, along with the valves with ceramic material to keep the heat in the gas and not be transfered to the engine.
As for by passing the muffler, sure with cubic money. Run the by pass route out the rear and have it energize the diffuser, muffled out the side, power out the rear. The headers can offer a bit of help.
Just the DI can add as much as 64 hp, 10%, which makes it 700 +.
All it takes is cubic money. :2tu:

chorps · Jun 13, 2013

Cylinder deactivation is normally used with autoboxes because the torque converter can mask the shock through the drivetrain. The new C7 supposedly will have cylinder deactivation with the manual transmission as well.

Cylinder deactivation on the Viper V10 will be interesting because it isn't as easily balanced as a V8's deactivation, since the V8 can run in a V4 configuration very easily.

The 'base' corvette engine gets all the goodies (cylinder deactivation/direct injection/variable valve timing) because they are making 20,000-30,000 corvettes a year, and the r&d can be directly applied across every single engine that uses the small block.

The Viper motor, V-10 and wedge head, is unique to the Viper and it's an uphill battle when only 2,000-3,000 cars a year will be made with it. The next generation design might have to go hemi head V10 just to survive... a V-10 version of the 6.4L Hemi V-8 would be 8L. The hemi head may not be as compact as the wedge head, but sharing the research and design and lots more parts commonality in the minor bits would go a long way to dropping the cost of the engine program.

Bobpantax · Jun 13, 2013

SRT needs to sell enough Vipers to justify the business model for doing any modification that requires significant testing. How many 2013 Vipers have been delivered? Sergio M is a car guy but he is also a detail oriented bottom line numbers guy who is a CPA and a tax attorney. Glitz is nice but it does not talk like cash flow particularly in the face of Fiat's intended purchase of the rest of Chrysler. With that said, the SRT engineers are a great group of talented gear heads who are, as I have stated before, the equivalent of a special ops Team 6. If they can squeeze out a bit more reliable power within the tight constraints of their small budget, I am sure they will try to do so.

In the meantime, I think that getting the SRT8 response out to the ZL1 Camaro and the GT500 Mustang should take priority. It is long overdue. Dealers must be very upset about this. They have to be losing sales to Ford and Chevrolet products.

chorps · Jun 13, 2013

Bobpantax said:
In the meantime, I think that getting the SRT8 response out to the ZL1 Camaro and the GT500 Mustang should take priority. It is long overdue. Dealers must be very upset about this. They have to be losing sales to Ford and Chevrolet products.

Well, power is one big part of it, but the Chally is a big boned car when put up against the other two. I think of the Mustang as a size medium, the Camaro as size large, and Challenger as size extra large.

Given the extra size of some people today, XL is the only size that might fit them too. =D

Also the back seat room of the Challenger is way better than the other two. To be a real performance contender, Chrysler will have to drop the weight/size of the Challenger as well as up the power. After so many years suffering at the hands of Daimler and Cerberus, Chrysler has a lot of catching up to do, Viper and Challenger included.

ringram · Jun 13, 2013

I read the C7 handles AFM by adding weight to the drivetrain and torque tubes which are steel instead of alloy. I think this added quite a bit of weight.
No hopefully the Z06 does away with all this and hits the 3000lb mark with closer to 600bhp. Add in the tuneable ECU and the Viper is toast.

Jack B · Jun 13, 2013

If pigs had wings they could fly.

ringram said:
I read the C7 handles AFM by adding weight to the drivetrain and torque tubes which are steel instead of alloy. I think this added quite a bit of weight.
No hopefully the Z06 does away with all this and hits the 3000lb mark with closer to 600bhp. Add in the tuneable ECU and the Viper is toast.

Bobpantax · Jun 13, 2013

My supercharged automatic SRT8 Challenger with a custom calibration is reliably running about 550 HP with a 3.92 diff, Corsa catback, front and rear tower strut supports and front and rear Hotchkiss anti sway bars. It is nimble and handles like a much smaller car. On a warm, humid day it ran a 11.996 in the quarter. ( See sig below). I really do not understand what is taking so long to get the SRT8 response to the Zl1 and the GT500 done.

chorps said:
Well, power is one big part of it, but the Chally is a big boned car when put up against the other two. I think of the Mustang as a size medium, the Camaro as size large, and Challenger as size extra large.

Given the extra size of some people today, XL is the only size that might fit them too. =D

Also the back seat room of the Challenger is way better than the other two. To be a real performance contender, Chrysler will have to drop the weight/size of the Challenger as well as up the power. After so many years suffering at the hands of Daimler and Cerberus, Chrysler has a lot of catching up to do, Viper and Challenger included.

kdaviper · Jun 13, 2013

Bobpantax said:
My supercharged automatic SRT8 Challenger with a custom calibration is reliably running about 550 HP with a 3.92 diff, Corsa catback, front and rear tower strut supports and front and rear Hotchkiss anti sway bars. It is nimble and handles like a much smaller car. On a warm, humid day it ran a 11.996 in the quarter. ( See sig below). I really do not understand what is taking so long to get the SRT8 response to the Zl1 and the GT500 done.

Because the Hellcat engine is supposed to be the be all, end all SC big block V8. Wish they could keep hellcat as a marketing name and not just an internal moniker....

Bobpantax · Jun 13, 2013

I think that they just need to have a "beginning all" and then let it evolve. If they think that Ford and Chevy have just been sitting on their respective buts not figuring out how to enhance the GT500 and ZL1 even further, they are naive and I would hope that they are not naive.

Viper V-10 recieving upgrades in future?

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