Gen V has it's work cut out for it at the Ring...

ACRucrazy · Sep 6, 2013

http://bridgetogantry.com/2/index.p...laren-p1-does-a-7m04s-lap-of-the-nuerburgring

Remember how the McLaren P1 spent a whole day on the Nürburgring Nordschleife earlier this month? Well the rumour was that despite the clear track, the best lap time still wasn't significantly improved over the car's first appearance here. But a little bird has just told me that the incredibly-expensive P1's 'official' laptime is almost ready to be made public. [EDIT: A new source claims that laptime will not be made public as it's 5 seconds too slow!]
That same little birdy just told me that the revealed laptime will be 7m04s.

Is that full lap? Probably not, it's more likely to be the 'industry standard' T13 lap, missing a few metres for the normally-speed-limited T13 straight in industry pool.

mp4How fast is that compared to the current Nürburgring lap record holders? Fast, damn fast. But whether or not it's the fastest road-legal production car ever to lap the Nordschleife will depend on your own opinion of the infamous Radical SR8-LM. The Radical SR8 laps the full-length of the course in under 7 minutes on road-legal Dunlop Direzza semi-slicks! The only problem is that it's not type-approved, requiring a single vehicle approval in the UK. Radical's actual road-legal-across-Europe model, the SR3 SL, is significantly absent from laptime tables right now, though it must be quite fast.

Either way; if the rumour is true, then the P1 will have edged the road-legal Viper ACR out of top spot (though a hopped-up ACR-X did do a 7m03s laptime on slicks), and pulled a significant gap on the 7m28s Sportauto laptime of its baby brother, the MP4-12C. It's interesting to note that since the notorious MP4-12C crash, McLaren didn't attempt an official laptime of the MP4. Officially they never did attempt a laptime, it was just a coincidence that the car crashed while there was a film-crew and a helicopter.

Maybe 7m04s isn't fast enough for a million-pound supercar, and what I'm reporting above is another set of coincidences. Only time will tell...

And..

http://www.gtspirit.com/2013/09/05/mclarens-goal-to-reach-sub-7-min-nurburgring-time/

Just a couple days after reports emerged suggesting that the McLaren P1 has officially lapped the Nurburgring in a brisk 7 minutes and 4 seconds, we spoke to McLaren’s Paul Mackenzie, program director for the P1, at their recent 50th anniversary party in London. He stated McLaren is dedicated to reach a goal of sub-7 minutes on the famous Nurburgring Nordschleife. And although he wouldn’t comment on the rumoured time of 7 minute 4 seconds, it is very clear that McLaren aims to break the 7 minute mark and even if the 7 minute 4 seconds lap time is true it is not quite fast enough for McLaren.

By comparison, the fastest production, road-legal time at the Nurburgring is currently held by the Radical SR8 LM at 6min48sec. However, debate still remains some four years after that time was set about whether or not the SR8 LM really is a road car. Legally speaking, it is road legal and can be driven on the road.

Second after the Radical is the Gumpert Apollo Sport that set a time of 7:11.57 in the hands of Florian Gruber back in 2009. Right behind the Gumpert is the Dodge Viper ACR in which Dominik Farnbacher set a 7:12:13 lap in 2011. Competitors of the McLaren P1 are yet to set official laptimes although a pre-production version of the Porsche 918 Spyder set a 7 minutes 14 seconds lap earlier this year.

With the production Porsche 918 Spyder, Ferrari LaFerrari and Koenigsegg Agera R still to join the party there are certainly interesting times ahead for Nurburgring fans!

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mnc2886 · Sep 6, 2013

Ralph did promise that the Gen V will go to the ring once the Gen IV ACR time was broken. Time to produce a Gen V ACR and show the world they mean business.

MoparMap · Sep 6, 2013

It's amazing that the Viper has held the spot for so long. I'm surprised the ACR-X didn't outpace it even more than it did, but then again the cars aren't all that much different. Frankly I think a lot of the lap times just have to do with how big a pair you've got between your legs. The ACR video was crazy and had me grabbing the virtual "oh crap" handle on my chair, lol.

ViperSmith · Sep 6, 2013

It will never beat the P1 around the Ring. The P1 is in a different league.

BDZ1984 · Sep 6, 2013

As someone who has seen the P1 and talked with the engineers about the car. I doubt the Viper will top the P1's time. As much as I'd like it to.

The_Greg · Sep 6, 2013

I can sleep at night if the P1 is faster than even a Gen V ACR around the ring.

BigDawg · Sep 6, 2013

It's about time supercars started being fast again. Sports cars and exotics like the Viper, GTR, and ZR1 have been waxing supercars for some time now (Carrera GT, Enzo, MC12).

If the P1 really does do what they claim that's damn impressive. I don't expect the Viper to beat it. It would be incredible for the Viper to do a sub 7 second time but I wouldn't call it a failure if it didn't. A 7:06 would be insane. I'm sure if SRT did what Nissan, Porsche, McLaren and others have and spent months or years testing and training for the Nurburgring we'd see a substantial time drop, even in the old ACR.

Edit: I put very little stock in the times of cars (supplied by the factory) with forced induction or computer controlled transmissions. Take a true production unit off the showroom floor and run it. That's what counts.

madninjaskillz · Sep 6, 2013

I'm not so quick to count the new ACR (if made) out of the equation. The P1 is a monster (and my favorite of the 3 new supers) but I don't think it's out of the ACR's league given proper tires and some time spent learning the new course in the new car.

Bobpantax · Sep 6, 2013

It may be fast but it is also fugly.

TrackAire · Sep 6, 2013

If the P1 doesn't break the ACR's record, Ron Dennis should be hit in the forehead with a ball peen hammer.

That car "should" break the record, if it doesn't, it would be a huge fail.

George

VRYALT3R3D · Sep 6, 2013

I wonder if the next ACR will be heavily based on the ACR-X. Stiffer frame, same PCM tune and power as the ACR-X engine. Maybe even GT3-R areo.

kennyhemi · Sep 6, 2013

You guys are killing me! wait a minute! Didn't the ACR X ran a conservative 7:02 isn't The Gen V engine is basically the same! Now add a stiffer frame and supposedly a little better car all way around to the Gen 4 if and when the Gen V ACR is built I see no problem whatsoever in turning in a sub 7 sec. Time! That said, the P1 is F**king ugly overpriced that you need mid 6 figure income to maintain automobile that looks like a Lamborghini which in turn now looks like an Audi. And if you really want to kick some "super car" ass then for a small amount of denomination (unlike the p1 or any other euro super car for that matter) you can turn some serious standing mile mph"s and eye crossing 1/4 mile times! AND keep the extra quarter mill in your now fat bank account!

Stealth · Sep 6, 2013

TrackAire said:
If the P1 doesn't break the ACR's record, Ron Dennis should be hit in the forehead with a ball peen hammer.

That car "should" break the record, if it doesn't, it would be a huge fail.

George

+1 except for the hammer part! The P1 has what 900+ hp, active downforce and a $1mil price tag?

The currently fictitous Gen V ACR would be a success with a time in between 7:12 and the times of the P1, 918, La Ferrari, etc. I have a feeling that the next GM offerings (C7 Z06, ZR1--also non-existent at this time) will have more hp and more downforce than the C6 versions, so things should get interesting at the ring.

The La Ferrari should have a time penalty when it runs due to an extremely sucky name!

former345bhpLS1 · Sep 6, 2013

TrackAire said:
If the P1 doesn't break the ACR's record, Ron Dennis should be hit in the forehead with a ball peen hammer.

That car "should" break the record, if it doesn't, it would be a huge fail.

George

I agree that the P1 would have a MAJOR image problem if the Gen V ACR outran it at the ring. That said, if this reports is accurate, the P1 still hasn't beaten the ACR-X's lap time (7:03)! It seems that a Gen V ACR (if ever created - I don't know if it has been approved, etc) would have a good chance of meeting or exceeding the ACR-X's time given their mechanical similarities.

The one thing working in the Gen Vs favor is the monstrous, normally aspirated V10. Dick Winkles claims that the big reason the ZR1 couldn't match the ACR was due to heat soak after long laps like at the ring. The P1 and LaFerrari may have a lot of trouble with this too. Performance hybrids suffer performance degradation after sustained output from their electric motors, the Tesla S also loses performance after successive acceleration times due to heat in the batteries and motor (sidebar from R&T 5/13). These power plants may not be as well suited to the ring as a shorter track. There is no doubt that the P1 will be monstrously fast in a straight-line.

Anyway, my 2 cents. I'm surprised that the P1 isn't faster already...

-Nick

TrackAire · Sep 6, 2013

former345bhpLS1 said:
I agree that the P1 would have a MAJOR image problem if the Gen V ACR outran it at the ring. That said, if this reports is accurate, the P1 still hasn't beaten the ACR-X's lap time (7:03)! It seems that a Gen V ACR (if ever created - I don't know if it has been approved, etc) would have a good chance of meeting or exceeding the ACR-X's time given their mechanical similarities.

The one thing working in the Gen Vs favor is the monstrous, normally aspirated V10. Dick Winkles claims that the big reason the ZR1 couldn't match the ACR was due to heat soak after long laps like at the ring. The P1 and LaFerrari may have a lot of trouble with this too. Performance hybrids suffer performance degradation after sustained output from their electric motors, the Tesla S also loses performance after successive acceleration times due to heat in the batteries and motor (sidebar from R&T 5/13). These power plants may not be as well suited to the ring as a shorter track. There is no doubt that the P1 will be monstrously fast in a straight-line.

Anyway, my 2 cents. I'm surprised that the P1 isn't faster already...

-Nick

You nailed a major point the manufacturers or the magazines won't talk about. Just about any car can make a couple of fast laps at Laguna Seca without puking either their coolant, oil temps, trans temps or brake fade. But try an all out run for 12 miles and equipment starts to wig out.

Do you know why nobody has beaten the ACR Ring record? Because they know their cars can't. Every manufacturer has computer program simulations to know what their car can run at the Ring (SRT does). Funny how the new Ferrari F12 or Koenigsegg Algera has not made a documented attempt. This is a good time of the year to try, so if we see anything happening it should be between now and the rainy season. I wish somebody would break the ACR record, we need a reason to go back.

Cheers,
George

jsd512 · Sep 6, 2013

Chrysler does not have the courage to compete with the P1, period. I believe if they committed themselves, to nothing less than breath-taking, they could beat that ugly freaking car. Chrysler lacks guts, that is what keeps the Viper at the bottom of the toilet. The P1 is ugly. Jeez. That 7:04 time is embarrassing. 100 million trillion dollars and all they could manage was 7:04, yikes. I bet they have gone back and added 100psi, while leaving the advertised rating of 900HP.

bluestreak · Sep 6, 2013

BigDawg said:
It's about time supercars started being fast again. Sports cars and exotics like the Viper, GTR, and ZR1 have been waxing supercars for some time now (Carrera GT, Enzo, MC12).

If the P1 really does do what they claim that's damn impressive. I don't expect the Viper to beat it. It would be incredible for the Viper to do a sub 7 second time but I wouldn't call it a failure if it didn't. A 7:06 would be insane. I'm sure if SRT did what Nissan, Porsche, McLaren and others have and spent months or years testing and training for the Nurburgring we'd see a substantial time drop, even in the old ACR.

Edit: I put very little stock in the times of cars (supplied by the factory) with forced induction or computer controlled transmissions. Take a true production unit off the showroom floor and run it. That's what counts.

Exactly! Took the words straight from my head. All this money for these funky looking cars and nothing to show for it but sniffing dust from 70k Corvettes and 100k Vipers etc. Almost a decade the so called "super" cars have been getting mauled at track after track. I'm actually pleased to see someone restoring the allure so they aren't considered trophies to take to cars n coffee.

I also agree that a 7:06 would be awesome and expecting the new ACR to beat 7:04 is unrealistic at best and sub 7 minutes is dreaming.

slysnake · Sep 6, 2013

Chrysler lacks guts, that is what keeps the Viper at the bottom of the toilet.

You want to explain that comment?

The_Greg · Sep 7, 2013

slysnake said:
You want to explain that comment?

He is a very pessimistic and Debbie downer kind of guy, he frequents many forums and says many of the same "Chrysler *****" stuff. Not calling him a troll per se, just maintains a very negative outlook.

BlknBlu · Sep 7, 2013

no need to reveal your hand when you are at the top of the heap. Viper still holds the title last time I checked

Bruce

Makara · Sep 7, 2013

kennyhemi said:
You guys are killing me! wait a minute! Didn't the ACR X ran a conservative 7:02 isn't The Gen V engine is basically the same! Now add a stiffer frame and supposedly a little better car all way around to the Gen 4 if and when the Gen V ACR is built I see no problem whatsoever in turning in a sub 7 sec. Time!

What tires was the ACR X on again?

TrackAire · Sep 7, 2013

Makara said:
What tires was the ACR X on again?

High Performance Michelin Dry weather compound........very dry :rolaugh:

jsd512 · Sep 7, 2013

slysnake said:
You want to explain that comment?

Look at the overall performance numbers, not just race track performance, the new Viper does not measure up and I think it should. The cream rises to the top, the Viper has not risen. Could it, you bet your sweet-ass it could.

jsd512 · Sep 7, 2013

The_Greg said:
He is a very pessimistic and Debbie downer kind of guy, he frequents many forums and says many of the same "Chrysler *****" stuff. Not calling him a troll per se, just maintains a very negative outlook.

Very pessimistic and angry. Chrysler refuses to compete, with every ounce it can find. I have bought nothing but Chrysler for 20 years and I can at times be very critical. They let costs dictate what the Viper can do. That is the last car you should pinch pennies with, sort-of-speak. Pinch pennies with the Dart, Charger/300, Journey or Grand Caravan, not the Viper. Dig deep with the Viper, shallow with the others. Chrysler does not ****, necessarily, but they are underachievers.

ViperSmith · Sep 7, 2013

jsd512 said:
Look at the overall performance numbers, not just race track performance, the new Viper does not measure up and I think it should. The cream rises to the top, the Viper has not risen. Could it, you bet your sweet-ass it could.

McLaren probably spend as much as the entire Viper program on their headlight design. That is why it is a complete monster in everything.

So, please - fill us in on how a pet project of people at SRT can compete with a super funded project? I'd love to hear. For the money they had, I think so far it has been great. I think the ACR will be a monster in every single way. It won't be in the 1/4 mile like the 12C, but it will destroy everything on the track.

Perhaps the best course of action is for you to submit your resume to SRT so you can take Ralph's job and show us all how it is done!

former345bhpLS1 · Sep 8, 2013

jsd512 said:
Very pessimistic and angry. Chrysler refuses to compete, with every ounce it can find. I have bought nothing but Chrysler for 20 years and I can at times be very critical. They let costs dictate what the Viper can do. That is the last car you should pinch pennies with, sort-of-speak. Pinch pennies with the Dart, Charger/300, Journey or Grand Caravan, not the Viper. Dig deep with the Viper, shallow with the others. Chrysler does not ****, necessarily, but they are underachievers.

Pinching pennies on their volume products is how Chrysler found itself being rescued by the Italians (saying that out loud never sounds right, but that is what happened)! Chrysler has to create impressive products against ever stiffer competition and deal with the budget issues that accompany recent bankruptcy. Developing all new platforms and products takes a HUGE amount of capital investment and no one with Chrysler or Fiat has that to spend at the moment. Even Fiat is worried about it's future over the long term, the current math says that a car company has to sell ~6 million cars per year to remain competitive with supplier contracts and amortizing R&D, Fiat is selling around 4.5 million cars per year total across it's whole range. There is more to it than "working hard" and "stepping up their game"

Plus, the Viper's performance at the ring is hardly in question here. Porsche is a big company with the best profit margins in the industry and it has the backing of VW which has huge R&D resources. And yet, their new hyper-car that represents the best that the company can provide with the impressive changes in automotive tech over the past 5 years.....is still slower than the Viper ACR (by 2 seconds)! The car set that record after production lines had closed when it was essentially unchanged after being introduced in 2008 (save for a shorter 5th gear ratio).

So...in 2013 the car that still holds the official production car record at the Nurburgring is a low volume American sport's car who's tech dates back 5 years to 2008. It's a stunning accomplishment!

The Viper may lose the record to the McLaren P1, but the McLaren is a million dollar car that represents the state of the art in 2013. And the current numbers are not that much better. The Gen V ACR may have it's work cut out for it, but SRT still succeeded in grimmer times with fewer resources. Please give credit where credit is due.

Finally, the day when RWD manual sports cars can win drag races is over. SRT could post better 1/4 miles times by giving the Viper AWD, DCT, and a twin turbo V6/V8, but then it wouldn't be a Viper. If someone wants a GTR or Porsche TT, they should buy one, not ask every manufacturer to make a carbon copy. Plus, the Viper still waxes those two cars on real racetracks so why take a step in the wrong direction?

-Nick

Hemotoxic · Sep 8, 2013

TrackAire said:
If the P1 doesn't break the ACR's record, Ron Dennis should be hit in the forehead with a ball peen hammer.

Seeing as how McLaren is a very distant 5th in the Constructors and they've admitted that this year will be their first without a podium finish since 1980, RD is already in for the hammering of a lifetime, ball-peen or otherwise.

That car "should" break the record, if it doesn't, it would be a huge fail.

George

Right, given the money and publicity dumped on it. Then SRT will bust out the new ACR and try to beat the P1, probably successfully. Even if it doesn't, Ralph can truthfully say our car goes faster than anything BUT the P1, costs about one-eighth as much, has a 100,000-mile powertrain warranty good at hundreds of SRT dealers nationwide, will still be in production long after the P1's entire run is complete, and looks like [random supermodel] lying sideways on the beach instead of like a Lotus Elise that somebody left in the oven too long and partly melted.

madninjaskillz · Sep 8, 2013

former345bhpLS1 said:
I agree that the P1 would have a MAJOR image problem if the Gen V ACR outran it at the ring. That said, if this reports is accurate, the P1 still hasn't beaten the ACR-X's lap time (7:03)! It seems that a Gen V ACR (if ever created - I don't know if it has been approved, etc) would have a good chance of meeting or exceeding the ACR-X's time given their mechanical similarities.

The one thing working in the Gen Vs favor is the monstrous, normally aspirated V10. Dick Winkles claims that the big reason the ZR1 couldn't match the ACR was due to heat soak after long laps like at the ring. The P1 and LaFerrari may have a lot of trouble with this too. Performance hybrids suffer performance degradation after sustained output from their electric motors, the Tesla S also loses performance after successive acceleration times due to heat in the batteries and motor (sidebar from R&T 5/13). These power plants may not be as well suited to the ring as a shorter track. There is no doubt that the P1 will be monstrously fast in a straight-line.

Anyway, my 2 cents. I'm surprised that the P1 isn't faster already...

-Nick

TrackAire said:
You nailed a major point the manufacturers or the magazines won't talk about. Just about any car can make a couple of fast laps at Laguna Seca without puking either their coolant, oil temps, trans temps or brake fade. But try an all out run for 12 miles and equipment starts to wig out.

Do you know why nobody has beaten the ACR Ring record? Because they know their cars can't. Every manufacturer has computer program simulations to know what their car can run at the Ring (SRT does). Funny how the new Ferrari F12 or Koenigsegg Algera has not made a documented attempt. This is a good time of the year to try, so if we see anything happening it should be between now and the rainy season. I wish somebody would break the ACR record, we need a reason to go back.

Cheers,
George

former345bhpLS1 said:
Pinching pennies on their volume products is how Chrysler found itself being rescued by the Italians (saying that out loud never sounds right, but that is what happened)! Chrysler has to create impressive products against ever stiffer competition and deal with the budget issues that accompany recent bankruptcy. Developing all new platforms and products takes a HUGE amount of capital investment and no one with Chrysler or Fiat has that to spend at the moment. Even Fiat is worried about it's future over the long term, the current math says that a car company has to sell ~6 million cars per year to remain competitive with supplier contracts and amortizing R&D, Fiat is selling around 4.5 million cars per year total across it's whole range. There is more to it than "working hard" and "stepping up their game"

Plus, the Viper's performance at the ring is hardly in question here. Porsche is a big company with the best profit margins in the industry and it has the backing of VW which has huge R&D resources. And yet, their new hyper-car that represents the best that the company can provide with the impressive changes in automotive tech over the past 5 years.....is still slower than the Viper ACR (by 2 seconds)! The car set that record after production lines had closed when it was essentially unchanged after being introduced in 2008 (save for a shorter 5th gear ratio).

So...in 2013 the car that still holds the official production car record at the Nurburgring is a low volume American sport's car who's tech dates back 5 years to 2008. It's a stunning accomplishment!

The Viper may lose the record to the McLaren P1, but the McLaren is a million dollar car that represents the state of the art in 2013. And the current numbers are not that much better. The Gen V ACR may have it's work cut out for it, but SRT still succeeded in grimmer times with fewer resources. Please give credit where credit is due.

Finally, the day when RWD manual sports cars can win drag races is over. SRT could post better 1/4 miles times by giving the Viper AWD, DCT, and a twin turbo V6/V8, but then it wouldn't be a Viper. If someone wants a GTR or Porsche TT, they should buy one, not ask every manufacturer to make a carbon copy. Plus, the Viper still waxes those two cars on real racetracks so why take a step in the wrong direction?

-Nick

You guys nailed it. I have the same thinking on this. All the downers need to wait and see and not be so critical. There's a reason we've had the record this long.

SilveRT8 · Sep 8, 2013

Whatever the NEW records at the Ring, some guys should just GO AND DRIVE THE DAMM CAR ! Then everything else is forgotten.

hawkeye · Sep 8, 2013

I was pondering the other day, the fact that the Little Mac, the MP4-12C, is actually slightly faster to 100 (by .2-.4 seconds) than the Big Mac (F1).

Now of course, the F1 is a 20 year old car.

And then I thought, sweet jesus, wait a minute, the Big Mac has a manual gearbox and requires TWO MANUAL SHIFTS to get to 100mph with standard gearing, on early 1990s street tires. Imagine the F1 with DCT, launch control, and Michelin cup tires? And then I thought, wait, don't imagine that, because that would effectively ruin Gordon's absolute masterpiece of a "cost is no issue" enthusiasts road car. By contrast I look at a Veyron and ask "Why?!?!?" (vanity/wallet measuring contest?), which had a similar end goal but very different means...

Now the Gen V is basically, for all intents and purposes, much closer to a F1 than a P1 or 12C in terms of technology, and this is intentional. If it is evenly remotely close (in ACR form) to a P1 on the green hell, then one really has to start asking themselves some serious questions about where we go from here in terms of road cars. Squeezing blood from a stone comes to mind, as does the law of diminishing returns.

The V is at a disadvantage without 60ms automated shifting, trick electronic all-wheel-drive, all wheel steering, dynamic engine mounts, magnetic ride control, and a whole supercomputer worth of ECUs to make it all play nice. It is like you have sticks and stones and they have guided smart missiles, if you are winning or even remotely close then I say that is one hell of an impressive result.

So that brings us full circle to the Gen V, which is not just fast, but is so involving and entertaining to drive, even at near-legal road speeds, that one begins to ask the question: Do I even care if that car over there is "faster", and is that "faster" car over there as entertaining to drive on a sunday morning bombing run? An interesting thought experiment would be, if I gave Gordon Murray the option to drive just one car for one day for the next year on fun winding roads, would he pick a MP4-12C or a Gen V Viper? I think it may not be such a slam-dunk answer...

Gen V has it's work cut out for it at the Ring...

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