Its worth saving, help john help you

So you think the others on the board was quiet and never said anything??

is that why Lee suspended them? cause they were so "not doing anything"? Is that why when Lee when on the rampage and suspended everyone people turned in there resignations? they were trying to change things, and nothing was changing. they finally gave up.

You are right WANTED so I'm going to be just like you and be an enthusiast. And you are welcome for the assistance in prolonging this worthless thread.. Adios

In response to post #62. Read the post again. That's not what is written. What they did lacked organization and planning. It was mostly a disorganized argument with some acting out by both factions in violation of VCA Bylaws. An organized, quiet, credible threat to secede if changes were not made would have worked. It was not tried.

Bobpantax said:

In response to post #62. Read the post again. That's not what is written. What they did lacked organization and planning. It was mostly a disorganized argument with some acting out by both factions in violation of VCA Bylaws. An organized, quiet, credible threat to secede if changes were not made would have worked. It was not tried.

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wow you really do have your head in the sand.

No my friend. I would say that you do. Enjoy that VOA f/k/a VOC Koolaid.

Bobpantax said:

No my friend. I would say that you do. Enjoy that VOC Koolaid.

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Hey! It's VOA.

AZTVR said:

I think that you should have posted this in the members only section, if you only "wanted" VCA members to respond to the thread. But, then, you still would have gotten those VCA members posting that were not allowed to post their opinions here before last week.

Remember, the *** told those people that if they wanted to discuss those issues, they needed to do it somewhere else. They pushed them toward the VA to discuss what they thought was broken at the VCA. Personally, I visited the VA for the technical threads that used to be here. The other stuff didn't appeal to me and the anti-VCA stuff sounded paranoid delusional conspiracy-theoristic. Well, the latest developments make it seem like not so crazy talk. I agree that there is a lot of pack mentality; but, not any more than what goes on with discussing politics.

Oh, and kudos for innovative use of color and font size.

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He CAN'T post in the members only section.....he isn't a member.........

Well, the op never did get all of his questions answered, so let me see if I can give it a try. Feel free to correct any mistakes, thanks.

1. WHO WILL BE ACTING AS PRESIDENT OF NEW CLUB? There is no new club (that I am aware of) at this point, so there is no president.

2. IS THE NEW ACTING PRESIDENT EVER BEEN ON THE *** OF VCA There is no new club at this point, so there is no new acting president. So, no, not at this point.

3. IF SO WHEN AND DATES Same as above

4. IS ANY TEMPORARY OFFICER OF NEW CLUB EVER BEEN ON THE There is no new club at this point, so there are no temporary officers.
*** OF THE VCA

5. IF SO WHEN AND DATES same as above

6. WHO ARE YOUR TEMPORARY OFFICERS Sorry, what do you mean by "your"? I guess you mean "the new club"? See above

7. I SEE THERE WILL BE A FEE TO JOIN YOUR NEW CLUB, WHAT There generally are fees to join a club. I am not starting a club. So again, not sure what you mean by "your". IS IT FOR?

8. WHY DO YOU EVEN VISIT THIS SITE WHEN YOU WANT NOTHING I visit and post here because I am a paid member and that is part of what my membership entitles me to do.
MORE TO DO WITH THE VCA? SEEMS TO ME YOU ENJOY IT OR
WANT TO CAUSE AS MUCH DAMAGE POSSIBLE TO HELP YOUR
NEW CLUB PULL IN MEMBERS FROM HERE

9. HOW DID YOUR NEW CLUB GET PERSONAL EMAILS OF MEMBERS There is no new club at this point.
HERE

10. HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE IN THE PACK YOU RUN WITH, JUST Usually I just cruse with two or three other viper owners in my area. Actually. most of the time I go for drives without others to run with.
CURIOUS.


Well, there you go. I hope that cleared up some of your questions.

Your welcome

sly

slysnake said:

10. HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE IN THE PACK YOU RUN WITH, JUST Usually I just cruse with two or three other viper owners in my area. Actually. most of the time I go for drives without others to run with.
CURIOUS.

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Like BobP, I am a stickler for details. "Read the post again. That's not what is written"

Personally I don't run, so there would be no one in my pack. Do you wanted? Triathlon? 5k? Marathon?

I'll pipe up...I've only been a member for 1.5 years, so I don't really have any loyalty to anyone, regardless of what forum they're on.

From where I sit, no one will be getting my money next year until this settles out...there's too much "he said, she said" BS going on right now with the VCA to trust giving them anymore money. At the same time, a forum is only good if it is active, so if the new VOA proves to be a flop, then I guess I'll just be another random Viper owner, and not part of any club. Not that I've had the time to participate in any club functions at this point anyway.

Mutts02GTS said:

He CAN'T post in the members only section.....he isn't a member.........

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I know, I just wanted to fixate that irony in his head in a different way. He is a non-VCA member getting all goose-pimply about have "baited" VCA members to post in his thread on the VCA.org forum.

Bobpantax said:

In response to post #62. Read the post again. That's not what is written. What they did lacked organization and planning. It was mostly a disorganized argument with some acting out by both factions in violation of VCA Bylaws. An organized, quiet, credible threat to secede if changes were not made would have worked. It was not tried.

Click to expand...

I have only read what is posted here and VA about the *** issues before the meltdown, and it probably would be told different ways by all of the involved parties anyway. In the end, I think that Lee's banishment decree was the force that finally served to organize the players that woulda/coulda/shoulda done something earlier. It appears to me that without Lee's actions, it would have been much more difficult to get everyone together to work on forming a new, different national club.

Bobpantax said:

At the same time, one might ask why a quiet, private coordinated threat to secede from the VCA was not made to motivate the changes needed. I would be very interested to read an explanation for that not occurring.

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You do realize they tried that right? Did you listen to the phone call? They tried a vote of no confidence and then Lee got on the all and it went to ****. They did it again a couple days later and actually got the vote which would have removed Lee from the club and then Lee layered up, fought the *** and said that vote wasn't legal. As a lawyer I'm sure you support that move by Lee. It bought him time to further destroy the club by suspended and banning *** members and National Officers. After that do actual think anyone left had any faith left in the "process"? Probably why everyone left and took their regions with them.

Your post is a bit off my point. A credible threat to secede did not need to involve everyone threatening to form a new club. In fact, the threat of a new club was not really even needed. The threat would have involved the protesting faction threatening to resign along with the threatened secession of some key Regions. When the MVCO proposed its secession, it did so on its own terms. I continue to dig for data and some recent intel is that before Lee's actions, Lee was banished first by a group of Board members who were part of the future proposed VOA founders. That action turned out to have been done in violation of required Bylaw procedure. So Lee was then reinstated. Lee subsequently resigned with an inappropriate Godfather I floursih of activity. In other words, the whole thing was disorganized acting out by both factions. The current Board was left holding the bag that both factions created. To me, the members of the current Board are an extraordinary group of dedicated volunteers who love the Viper and the VCA enough to try to repair the damage caused by the disorganized and amateurish factional warfare that occurred and they deserve the help and support of all reasonable people.

AZTVR said:

I have only read what is posted here and VA about the *** issues before the meltdown, and it probably would be told different ways by all of the involved parties anyway. In the end, I think that Lee's banishment decree was the force that finally served to organize the players that woulda/coulda/shoulda done something earlier. It appears to me that without Lee's actions, it would have been much more difficult to get everyone together to work on forming a new, different national club.

Click to expand...

Bobpantax said:

Your post is a bit off my point. A credible threat to secede did not need to involve everyone threatening to form a new club. In fact, the threat of a new club was not really even needed. The threat would have involved the protesting faction threatening to resign along with the threatened secession of some key Regions. When the MVCO proposed its secession, it did so on its own terms. I continue to dig for data and some recent intel is that before Lee's actions, Lee was banished first by a group of Board members that were part of the future proposed VOA founders. That action turned out to have been done in violation of required Bylaw procedure. So Lee was then reinstated. Lee subsequently resigned with an inappropriate Godfather I floursih of activity. In other words, the whole thing was disorganized acting out by both factions.

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You mean a secret last minute late night meeting like the same one Lee, Marv, Chris, etc... used to extend JonB's ban?

As stated above, both factions are at fault for creating the mess that the current Board is in the process of repairing. People can mire themselves in the past or help the VCA to move forward. I think that the number of members who wish to continue to immerse themselves in the chaos produced by both prior Board factions is probably minimal and dropping every day as members see that the new Board means business about changing things. There are still many interesting Viper related threads and posts entered on this site every day.

MoparBoyy said:

You mean a secret last minute late night meeting like the same one Lee, Marv, Chris, etc... used to extend JonB's ban?

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Bobpantax said:

As stated above, both factions are at fault for creating the mess that the current Board is in the process of repairing. People can mire themselves in the past or help the VCA to move forward. I think that the number of members who wish to continue to immerse themselves in the chaos produced by both prior Board factions is probably minimal and dropping every day as members see that the new Board means business about changing things. There are still many interesting Viper related threads and posts entered on this site every day.

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Wrong, the people at fault are the people that Chrysler named in the letter. Chrysler gave them a list of things they'd like to see changed and they refused. Quote from the Chrysler so you don't accuse me of making things up "Unfortunately, it does not appear by your response that the VCA has any intent to act independently as a club, managed by volunteers, owners, and enthusiasts, similar to the regional clubs acting independently". So how exactly is the former *** responsible for meetings, letters, and responses that they were never aware of and actually kept hidden from? It took a email CC from Chrysler to notify our NATIONAL VP and NATIONAL SECRETARY that this was even going on.

Your data is incomplete. There was quite a bit of back channel communication going on among quite a few people. I seriously doubt the credibility of an assertion that no one outside of the CC'd people was aware of what was going on with Chrysler. I have heard that there was considerable email traffic and/ or phone calls to and or with a number of people not in the meetings and not CC'd with the letter. Perhaps some of those people have forgotten about some of that communication. The current Board is addressing more than just the Chrysler letter issues. The two issues raised by Chrysler are easily addressed and are just one of the areas being tended to based on the posts made by new the New Board members. Steps to form the VOC/VOA were taken prior to the public release of the Chrysler letter. You do know that - right?

I really don't KNOW WHAT IS going on HERE, BUT this thread MAKES ME want to
PUNCH BABIES!

WTH is going on around here lately? Im pretty sure ppl are losing their minds over this. I have an idea, turn off the pc and go outside and play catch with your kid. This is why we cant have nice things.

Bobpantax said:

Your data is incomplete. There was quite a bit of back channel communication going on among quite a few people. I seriously doubt the credibility of an assertion that no one outside of the CC'd people was aware of what was going on with Chrysler. I have heard that there was considerable email traffic and/ or phone calls to and or with a number of people not in the meetings and not CC'd with the letter. Perhaps some of those people have forgotten about some of that communication. The current Board is addressing more than just the Chrysler letter issues. The two issues raised by Chrysler are easily addressed and are just one of the areas being tended to based on the posts made by new the New Board members. Steps to form the VOC/VOA were taken prior to the public release of the Chrysler letter. You do know that - right?

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Then lets see this "data" otherwise it sounds like hearsay to me I think you misread my post. I didn't say that nobody outside the CC'd communication wasn't aware of the communications with Chrysler. I'm saying that I know that 2 of the people on the CC'd communication weren't aware of what was going on until they got the CC'd email from Chrysler, not Lee, or anyone from the VCA/VPA. Two of those people happened to be National officers that should be in the know but were kept out of the loop.

Really? So you do not think there was any leakage from the Chrysler side at all? Or additional leakage from the VCA people by telephone calls or people who may have forwarded emails or copied and pasted parts of emails to others? Also, look at the VOA/VOC FAQ letter. Their stated grounds for formation are not just based on what occurred with Chrysler.

You are still missing the overall point. The VOPA/VOC people could have calmly and silently organized their effort and threatened to do what they did in a credible way to induce VCA change without actually doing it. That strategy would have worked. It was even suggested on this site, before the VOA/VOC organizers had their telecon with some Regional people, and after Jerry Colpits posted the letter inviting Maurice back to the VCA as the National VP. Whther the letter was a "kick in the balls" or not as someone posted, Maurice should have accepted the position and been one of the leaders for change. If he had done so, I think many would have viewed that act as a selfless and heroic act. I know that I would have and if he would change his mind and accept the position now, I would still view it as such.

As I suggested before, you need to stop drinking the VOA/VOC Koolaid and come back and help the new Board move the VCA forward. You are in a great Region with great people. Get together with them and help. Bashing the actions of the VCA's old Board after the battle for reform has already been won does not make much sense.

MoparBoyy said:

Then lets see this "data" otherwise it sounds like hearsay to me I think you misread my post. I didn't say that nobody outside the CC'd communication wasn't aware of the communications with Chrysler. I'm saying that I know that 2 of the people on the CC'd communication weren't aware of what was going on until they got the CC'd email from Chrysler, not Lee, or anyone from the VCA/VPA. Two of those people happened to be National officers that should be in the know but were kept out of the loop.

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Bobpantax said:

Your data is incomplete. There was quite a bit of back channel communication going on among quite a few people. I seriously doubt the credibility of an assertion that no one outside of the CC'd people was aware of what was going on with Chrysler. I have heard that there was considerable email traffic and/ or phone calls to and or with a number of people not in the meetings and not CC'd with the letter. Perhaps some of those people have forgotten about some of that communication. The current Board is addressing more than just the Chrysler letter issues. The two issues raised by Chrysler are easily addressed and are just one of the areas being tended to based on the posts made by new the New Board members. Steps to form the VOC/VOA were taken prior to the public release of the Chrysler letter. You do know that - right?

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You lack credibility Bob. You are a puppet, Pro-bono or otherwise. Heard-Hearsay. Stop posting while you're behind.

Blaming Maurice for not wanting to come back after being humiliated and kicked out is pretty rich. He can do what he wants and vilifying Maurice with such a conspiracy theory is pretty low, imo. The last actions of the previous president precipitated this whole crisis, but most of the people have figured out it has been brewing for a long time.

Trying to force the community back into the VCA is going to be like putting toothpaste back in the tube. There are going to be 2 national organizations and a whole bunch of confused members for a while at least. Why are you mad about that and not mad about how and why it came about? It makes it appear that you condoned such behaviour in the past, and people don't like bullies or the people who support bullies.

Kool Aid is tearing this board apart.

chorps said:

Blaming Maurice for not wanting to come back after being humiliated and kicked out is pretty rich. He can do what he wants and vilifying Maurice with such a conspiracy theory is pretty low, imo. The last actions of the previous president precipitated this whole crisis, but most of the people have figured out it has been brewing for a long time.

Trying to force the community back into the VCA is going to be like putting toothpaste back in the tube. There are going to be 2 national organizations and a whole bunch of confused members for a while at least. Why are you mad about that and not mad about how and why it came about? It makes it appear that you condoned such behaviour in the past, and people don't like bullies or the people who support bullies.

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Very true. Why should people wait on taking action (or at least planning action) before "everyone" knows what's going on/more facts get released. There is no denying the massive censorship and secrecy enacted by a few was tainting the experience of many; to include the once special relationship with Chrysler. The letter and phone call were but a couple reasons why I didn't renew my membership this year. It doesn't take above average metal acuity to put the pieces together.

Hi. Try reading with a bit more precision. The important thing is moving forward. As for Maurice, I do not see being offered the National Vice President position as being humiliated. I do see it as a way to apologize; patch things up and move forward. Maurice was Secretrary when Lee improperly terminated him. Asking Maurice to come back in an elevated position and be the second in command of the VCA was/is certainly not a put down. If anything, it was a showing of respect and confidence. No one is trying to force anyone back into the VCA. But, based on the VOA/VOC FAQs and the incredible hostility and anger shown toward anyone who still supports the VCA by some VOA/VOC supporters, I would say that all the bullying is from them. Just look at the posts on the other sites. Do you see any VCA people acting and posting like that using the same type of words? There is a reason the moderators are anonymous on this site. In the recent past, they were threatened. Now that is low. Very low. I think that most members do not care about the politics at all and are sick of reading/hearing about same. The new Board is making changes as fast as they can. The first member wide election for National officers will occur and new member elected leaders will be installed. Presidential powers will be reduced. Moderation has already improved. The Chrysler issues are being addressed. If that is not enough for some, I think that they should just move on and do their own thing. What good purpose does it serve for them to post hostile comments here? How does that improve member services or member benefits? Obviously, it does not.

chorps said:

Blaming Maurice for not wanting to come back after being humiliated and kicked out is pretty rich. He can do what he wants and vilifying Maurice with such a conspiracy theory is pretty low, imo. The last actions of the previous president precipitated this whole crisis, but most of the people have figured out it has been brewing for a long time.

Trying to force the community back into the VCA is going to be like putting toothpaste back in the tube. There are going to be 2 national organizations and a whole bunch of confused members for a while at least. Why are you mad about that and not mad about how and why it came about? It makes it appear that you condoned such behaviour in the past, and people don't like bullies or the people who support bullies.

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Bob I don't think there is any Koolaid from the presidents call of a few weeks ago and our past president did not do himself or the VCA board any favors by interrupting the call. I did not participate in either call last week as I just needed a break from the drama and had some other plans that precluded being involved. I have been trying to find out what is going on in both camps because my members are divided on what to do. I think there is a reasonable effort to fix the problems in VCA but I am afraid it is too little too late and it looks like at least some of the regions have withdrawn from VCA. There has still been little transparency on the financial workings of VCA and VPA. There are lots of figures going around about what expenses are and that is just not going to be acceptable until this is cleared up. I can see the effort to fix the bylaws but many of my members don't seem to think that fixes the fundamental problems that have undermined confidence in the club - at least not at this point. If those concerns are the recipe for Koolaid, then I think a lot of folks are drinking it and I can see why some folks want to move on.

Bobpantax said:

Really? So you do not think there was any leakage from the Chrysler side at all? Or additional leakage from the VCA people by telephone calls or people who may have forwarded emails or copied and pasted parts of emails to others? Also, look at the VOA/VOC FAQ letter. Their stated grounds for formation are not just based on what occurred with Chrysler.

You are still missing the overall point. The VOPA/VOC people could have calmly and silently organized their effort and threatened to do what they did in a credible way to induce VCA change without actually doing it. That strategy would have worked. It was even suggested on this site, before the VOA/VOC organizers had their telecon with some Regional people, and after Jerry Colpits posted the letter inviting Maurice back to the VCA as the National VP. Whther the letter was a "kick in the balls" or not as someone posted, Maurice should have accepted the position and been one of the leaders for change. If he had done so, I think many would have viewed that act as a selfless and heroic act. I know that I would have and if he would change his mind and accept the position now, I would still view it as such.

As I suggested before, you need to stop drinking the VOA/VOC Koolaid and come back and help the new Board move the VCA forward. You are in a great Region with great people. Get together with them and help. Bashing the actions of the VCA's old Board after the battle for reform has already been won does not make much sense.

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Joel. You can't leave. Who am I going to debate in the 2014 and 2016 elections? I need you around so we can beat each other up a little. Why don't you run someone for National Office in the upcoming VCA member wide voting election? Think of all the fun that might be.

JoelW said:

Bob I don't think there is any Koolaid from the presidents call of a few weeks ago and our past president did not do himself or the VCA board any favors by interrupting the call. I did not participate in either call last week as I just needed a break from the drama and had some other plans that precluded being involved. I have been trying to find out what is going on in both camps because my members are divided on what to do. I think there is a reasonable effort to fix the problems in VCA but I am afraid it is too little too late and it looks like at least some of the regions have withdrawn from VCA. There has still been little transparency on the financial workings of VCA and VPA. There are lots of figures going around about what expenses are and that is just not going to be acceptable until this is cleared up. I can see the effort to fix the bylaws but many of my members don't seem to think that fixes the fundamental problems that have undermined confidence in the club - at least not at this point. If those concerns are the recipe for Koolaid, then I think a lot of folks are drinking it and I can see why some folks want to move on.

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BobP,

Do we even know yet what legal and financial ramifications the VCA may be facing? Here are a couple of things that come to mind in regards to if the club can remain financially viable and keep its non profit status:

-Gen 5 Raffle: Are there going to be legal issues brought against the club? Will the club have to refund monies for all the tickets that were sold and monies collected?

-Loss of Supporting Vendors: Do we even know how many vendors will be left to help support the site/VCA financially? If not helping the VCA financially, will they even be allowed to post and answer questions?

-Leases the VCA is liable for: As I understand it, right now the VCA/VPA is responsible for $100,000.00 in yearly lease payments for two building we are renting to store tooling and VPA parts. Do we have any data showing when those leases are up, what the new lease options are if we stay, possibly moving for a better deal, etc.?? The leases are a binding contract that the VCA is liable for and it would be helpful to know what our options are.

-Any confirmation from SRT that they will support the VCA in the future? Per the last three years, I don't see a huge impact on having SRT "support" the club. Unless it is financial support, the tech support really is not what I would consider helpful for me. They cannot answer any questions pertaining to future products (makes it hard to make buying decisions for me), a lot of real issues such as window regulators obviously cannot be talked about, etc. When going to track events, there is no free or SRT deal that I have seen, we have to pay and buy tickets just like everybody else. I do like meeting the SRT guys at VCA dinners, etc, they have all be very nice and great to hang around with. An it now appears that they have embraced social media and will be doing SRT chat sessions on Facebook.....no more VCA or any Viper forum website is what my guts telling me.

-Viper Magazine: What is the future of the magazine? A lot of members actually consider this a major reason why they join the VCA. The never really post on the forums, but like the printed magazine and find value in it. The lack of consistent delivery schedules does not really add to the confidence that it will be a for sure thing.

I do feel that a lot of people are having a wait and see attitude until a lot of the above questions get answered. Regardless of how much you want to help and or save the VCA, from a legal standpoint many feel there will be no club to save because of the mounting legal and financial issues facing the VCA's future. Because of the tainted past, most that I talk to don't want to commit anything to the VCA until they get real information on where the club stands and if it will actually be allowed to continue from a legal standpoint.

George