Fatboy 18
Enthusiast
Hello Endeka, very refreshing to read your first post, have to agree about the engine covers, I know why they are there but you make a very good point.
Dry sump, Hell why not
Dry sump, Hell why not
What can SRT engineers do to improve future Gen Vipers?
- Thread starter kdaviper
- Start date
ViperSmith
Enthusiast
I wish I understood the psychology that everyone quotes "$140,000" as the price of a new Viper.
ohlarikd
Enthusiast
Whatever... the average price of a GTS is like $135K.
I agree there is the SRT at ~$107K, but they are very rare thanks to the production mix. But now that you bring that up, are THOSE selling? I see a few at Tomball at $107K, but I wasn't tracking their sales compared to the languishing GTSs. I would *think* that they would sell at that price, unless there is some perception that they are the 'cheap' Vipers.
Bingo!!! Almost every thread I've read concerning the GEN V's flagging sales has mentioned a price point of $140K (+). However, an SRT can be had for much less, and even a nicely option GTS can come in under $140K.
I just checked the ViperExchange website for '14s. They have three GTSs and three SRTs listed. Two of the SRTs are stickering under $110K and other one is heavily optioned at $129K. Heck! Even the nicely optioned '14 GTSs they have are stickered at $135K. That's nothing to sneeze at, but not every GEN V is a fully optioned GTS.
I believe once dealers dealers sell off their current inventory, they'll order lightly optioned SRTs going forward. Just like the two '14 SRTs I found on ViperExchange.
>I wish I understood the psychology that everyone quotes "$140,000" as the price of a new Viper.
I based that number on cars.com searches within 100 miles of my area. Maybe in high volume areas like Texas things are different, but that's what they cost here. Dealing with real numbers directly accessable to me in my situation is actually a useful psychology to have in my experience. Sure, there's the SRT Viper, but that's like the ZR1 1ZR trim, which also sold poorly. Most people who are in for a penny are in for a pound in this price range. That's the point of most of what I've been saying.
I based that number on cars.com searches within 100 miles of my area. Maybe in high volume areas like Texas things are different, but that's what they cost here. Dealing with real numbers directly accessable to me in my situation is actually a useful psychology to have in my experience. Sure, there's the SRT Viper, but that's like the ZR1 1ZR trim, which also sold poorly. Most people who are in for a penny are in for a pound in this price range. That's the point of most of what I've been saying.
05Commemorative
Enthusiast
For me, I break it down into the two areas below:
Items I specifically want: (personally, don't think they would increase the sales much, if at all)
1) better/bigger CF brakes
2) better tires
3) lower price
4) lose another 200lbs
5) dry sump
6) introduce the conv( which is really the main thing stopping me from getting one now)
Items I think enable more sales:
1) 8sp auto
2) rear exhaust
3) 3 setting suspension with the 3rd being more comfortable for more drivers
4) lower price
5) dealers that openly allow test drives to qualified/interested buyers
6) only let the magazines do tests with the current TA edition
7) V8 option to lower price
8) bring out the conv
Again, note I am breaking down between what I personally want in my car vs what I think sells more car. They conflict with each other in some ways, but that is ok. At the end of the day, the real question is how many cars does SRT need to sell a year to break-even (or make a profit). If 400, then keep what they are doing. If 2000, then some changes in order
Items I specifically want: (personally, don't think they would increase the sales much, if at all)
1) better/bigger CF brakes
2) better tires
3) lower price
4) lose another 200lbs
5) dry sump
6) introduce the conv( which is really the main thing stopping me from getting one now)
Items I think enable more sales:
1) 8sp auto
2) rear exhaust
3) 3 setting suspension with the 3rd being more comfortable for more drivers
4) lower price
5) dealers that openly allow test drives to qualified/interested buyers
6) only let the magazines do tests with the current TA edition
7) V8 option to lower price
8) bring out the conv
Again, note I am breaking down between what I personally want in my car vs what I think sells more car. They conflict with each other in some ways, but that is ok. At the end of the day, the real question is how many cars does SRT need to sell a year to break-even (or make a profit). If 400, then keep what they are doing. If 2000, then some changes in order
ohlarikd
Enthusiast
So the take away here is that SRT cannot sell the car at $140K? Will it be $120K? $100K?
As more and more SRT models come out in the mix, we'll see if things improve. How have SRT models been selling so far? Do they sell quickly, and it is just the GTS that sits?
Curious - back in the 2008-2010 era, what was the reason for the decline in sales every year to under 1000? I wasn't here back then, so I don't know what the forum was saying.
2008: 1579 (Vert 712/$85K; Coupe 688/$89K; ACR 179/$98K)
2009: 0659 (Vert 167/$88K; Coupe 241/$89K; ACR 251/$103K)
2010: 0509 (Vert 134/$90K; Coupe 118/$90K; ACR 187/$105K; ACR Vert 20; ACR-X 50)
ViperSmith
Enthusiast
Considering Nine Ball and myself bought SRT models at around $108, yes they are selling them.
You can get into a Viper for a decent price. Everyone quoting $140+ is just playing a game to justify their opinion, in my opinion.
ohlarikd
Enthusiast
This one is interesting, in that the dual-clutch paddle shifter like the Porsche PDK are HUGE sellers. Ferrari is also almost 100% paddle shift. And I mean true automated manual, dual clutch systems. Not the old Tiptronic manually controlled automatic.
5 years ago I would say you were crazy, but sales mixes today heavily favor PDK type systems. Is that a factor?
Back then it was the economy, it is still the reason today.
ohlarikd
Enthusiast
Agree economy is a reason today for sure. But I am seeing a TON of 2013 911s running around my area, which are priced in the same ballpark. I see a different one every day. I really don't know why, but people that have that kind of money are going 911.
For the Lamborghini/Ferrari price points, the economy is not a factor - and they seem to be having record years again and again lately.
I think the Viper and 911 are more in that 'upper middle class' spot.
ViperSmith
Enthusiast
SRT marketing failure is the reason the car isn't selling well. They flubbed everything along the way.
Fatboy 18
Enthusiast
I'm convinced people buy 911's as its a sports car for the young family. That extra seat makes all the difference for that baby seat and mom and dad can still feel great driving a sports car, If you then get into the GT2 or GT3, well chances are you have owned one of the previous models and now that the kids are older you can have your fun IMO
Viper is in a place of its own, and I like it that way
Viper is in a place of its own, and I like it that way
ohlarikd
Enthusiast
I'm convinced people buy 911's as its a sports car for the young family. That extra seat makes all the difference for that baby seat and mom and dad can still feel great driving a sports car, If you then get into the GT2 or GT3, well chances are you have owned one of the previous models and now that the kids are older you can have your fun IMO
Viper is in a place of its own, and I like it that way
I think that is TRUE. In fact, I have been considering a used one for the wife since it can still carry the kids... point taken! Not to mention all-wheel drive for safety purposes in the NE - all year round value.
Fatboy 18
Enthusiast
If you don't mind me asking, has there been any TV Advertising for the car yet? Any Videos like the Gen 2 ones?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFeBeoAxAY4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFeBeoAxAY4
Nobody is reading what I wrote.
The price is not the issue.
The price is not the issue.
All together now:
The price is not the issue.
So a $100K car is available. Great! I don't care; my point was exactly the opposite of what all of you are saying. The issue is that this car has a look, exclusivity, and pedigree to sell for much more, but their price, like their marketing, screams half-assed diffidence about their product. Give it the "dream" list of options (aluminum tub, dry sump, ccbs, high redline), make it $175K, and set up shop right across from the local Lambo dealership with a big middle finger on the sign. You will sell. This product is not selling because it has not demonstrated its value to the market.
Some will be young bankers/professionals who feel a Supercar would be too shouty. They'll never drive a Viper, and that's fine, that's what Porsche, Audi, and Aston are for.
However, others are likely scared of the exotic factor, and this is where I think marketing needs to come in for SRT shouting to the high heavens what I found out with my Z06:
Yes, it's possible to have a huge HP RWD 200MPH monster and drive the piss out of it every freaking day rain or shine without the 5,000 mile nanny checkups, frequent breakdowns, $10,000 repair bills, and headaches of a Ferrari or Lambo. People see Porsche at the top of the reliability ratings and thing "sensible, dependable." They see the Viper and they think, "Scary, impractical." That's wrong, and a good marketing campaign can prove it. A Gen V, if it's like the II, III, and IV, can be good for 200,000 miles of spirited public road driving, which Porsche can't even say for its products. Everyone jokes about the Viper having a truck engine (BS, I know), roll with it. "A semi will run forever, and so will your new supercar." Boom, sale.
Paul Hawker
Enthusiast
On the other hand, SRT has done a lot of good things to promote the Viper.
You now see Vipers in national SRT TV advertising.
Srt came out with two models, The SRT for those who want as much old school as possible. Great design, with their own hood, interior, suspension etc.
They also offer the upscale GTS with fantastic interior, upgraded stereo, adjustable suspension (from the drivers seat), and lots of upscale options.
They offer some of the best looking and highest performance wheel packages I have ever seen.
They unleashed the Coupe LeMans racing cars, and have campaigned them with pretty good success against some of the worlds best (and best funded) sports cars in world wide venues.
They held up the initial production cars until they got assurances from their suppliers that quality was going to be seriously enforced.
They offered so many colors and options that every car down the line could be a 1 of 1 if the owner so specified.
They revamped the old Conner plant. Scrubbed it clean, repainted and installed improved assembly equipment and techniques.
They upgraded the car from plain old Dodge into the fresh new high performance SRT Group.
They required every dealership to invest in new tools, new training, and a capital investment to enhance their commitment to the brand.
Now I know that this is not enough for some, but few could really say they have not stepped up their Viper support levels.
Of course, not everything has worked out perfectly, and it was obvious that sending poorly prepped cars out to magazine evaluations was not their best execution, but there was tremendous pressure from many sources to just get the cars out there, and into the hands of all the journalists.
For as long as I can remember, Vipers have been portrayed as ill handling, rough riding, loud and obnoxious cars...just the way most of us liked them, however all the successful cars mentioned earlier in this post have also gone up scale, with enhanced suspensions, sound systems, improved full leather interiors. Hard to fault SRT here either (but some will)
I believe that the real reason they are not selling is a matter of two things.
One: Timing. Production volume was non-esistant during the traditional hot Spring selling season. (cars were held back due to quality standards). Now that production is ramping up, it is getting towards Winter with many exotics being placed in their respective garages till Spring.
Two: There is a larger financial jump than ever to go from what a used Viper will bring and the cost that dealerships were demanding for the first cars. Dealers were posting excessive additional dealer markups on their showroom cars, and acting like Primadonna's by keeping them locked up, behind ropes, and denying people the opportunity to sit in them, let alone drive them. They drank their own cool aid, and felt the cars would sell themselves (some did) but also turned off a lot of people by such a snooty attitude.
Many of these same dealers have now gotten a little more humble, and are doing what is necessary to sell the cars.
SRT is also promoting a factory tour, where prospective buyers can see the cars, speak to the executives and technical experts that produce the cars, and get the chance to drive them in earnest.
Now I know that some dealerships were exceptional, but still, lots of damage was done.
The current undermining of the VCA by so many forum detractors has spread to many other website, and this, I am sure, has had to hurt sales.
I am sure SRT will do what is necessary to make the Viper a compelling choice in the ultra performance marketplace. I am sure a convertible and an ACR derivitive will be coming along, as soon as development can be finalized. They will also continue to improve on the world racing scene.
For the past 20 years, Viper has struggled to increase it's sales volume. It has never been easy, as they produce a vehicle that only appeals to a tiny niche in the marketplace, but I have seen them rise to this challenge over and over. Do not be surprised if the do not pull an unexpected rabbit out of their hat.
You now see Vipers in national SRT TV advertising.
Srt came out with two models, The SRT for those who want as much old school as possible. Great design, with their own hood, interior, suspension etc.
They also offer the upscale GTS with fantastic interior, upgraded stereo, adjustable suspension (from the drivers seat), and lots of upscale options.
They offer some of the best looking and highest performance wheel packages I have ever seen.
They unleashed the Coupe LeMans racing cars, and have campaigned them with pretty good success against some of the worlds best (and best funded) sports cars in world wide venues.
They held up the initial production cars until they got assurances from their suppliers that quality was going to be seriously enforced.
They offered so many colors and options that every car down the line could be a 1 of 1 if the owner so specified.
They revamped the old Conner plant. Scrubbed it clean, repainted and installed improved assembly equipment and techniques.
They upgraded the car from plain old Dodge into the fresh new high performance SRT Group.
They required every dealership to invest in new tools, new training, and a capital investment to enhance their commitment to the brand.
Now I know that this is not enough for some, but few could really say they have not stepped up their Viper support levels.
Of course, not everything has worked out perfectly, and it was obvious that sending poorly prepped cars out to magazine evaluations was not their best execution, but there was tremendous pressure from many sources to just get the cars out there, and into the hands of all the journalists.
For as long as I can remember, Vipers have been portrayed as ill handling, rough riding, loud and obnoxious cars...just the way most of us liked them, however all the successful cars mentioned earlier in this post have also gone up scale, with enhanced suspensions, sound systems, improved full leather interiors. Hard to fault SRT here either (but some will)
I believe that the real reason they are not selling is a matter of two things.
One: Timing. Production volume was non-esistant during the traditional hot Spring selling season. (cars were held back due to quality standards). Now that production is ramping up, it is getting towards Winter with many exotics being placed in their respective garages till Spring.
Two: There is a larger financial jump than ever to go from what a used Viper will bring and the cost that dealerships were demanding for the first cars. Dealers were posting excessive additional dealer markups on their showroom cars, and acting like Primadonna's by keeping them locked up, behind ropes, and denying people the opportunity to sit in them, let alone drive them. They drank their own cool aid, and felt the cars would sell themselves (some did) but also turned off a lot of people by such a snooty attitude.
Many of these same dealers have now gotten a little more humble, and are doing what is necessary to sell the cars.
SRT is also promoting a factory tour, where prospective buyers can see the cars, speak to the executives and technical experts that produce the cars, and get the chance to drive them in earnest.
Now I know that some dealerships were exceptional, but still, lots of damage was done.
The current undermining of the VCA by so many forum detractors has spread to many other website, and this, I am sure, has had to hurt sales.
I am sure SRT will do what is necessary to make the Viper a compelling choice in the ultra performance marketplace. I am sure a convertible and an ACR derivitive will be coming along, as soon as development can be finalized. They will also continue to improve on the world racing scene.
For the past 20 years, Viper has struggled to increase it's sales volume. It has never been easy, as they produce a vehicle that only appeals to a tiny niche in the marketplace, but I have seen them rise to this challenge over and over. Do not be surprised if the do not pull an unexpected rabbit out of their hat.
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It seems you 2 are THE ONLY ones who bought an SRT. The perception is simple. The SRT is the cheap viper. So people want the GTS. Most of the pictures being posted here were of LE's or GTS. NOT SRTs.
Price is the issue because as you said it, at the current price the market sees little value. And there is little value at that price point. At 120k the value is there.
05Commemorative
Enthusiast
I read this article recently that said the median corvette buyer is now 62yrs old. was 54yrs old 8yrs ago, which says the cars biggest problem is it now appeals to older folks. I suspect the Viper is not that much different. Interestingly, the median age for the 911 was in the low 40's. So, the car that has had virtually the same design for 40yr years, fantastic quality is more appealing to younger people. Go into any Porsche dealer, no questions asked, their first goal is to get you into the car for a drive because they know it will sell itself. Many lessons to be learned from them on selling, marketing, experiencing a brand and car.
Yeah that's the problem. Those damn rabble rousers who questioned the status quo on their "leadership", not the people who that drove the club into its current state of dysfunction and alienation from SRT.
ViperSmith
Enthusiast
SRT has done some really good commercials as of late, I really like their body and soul commericals
http://www.drivesrt.com/news/2013/06/srt-hits-television-screens-with-body-and-soul-commercials.html
http://www.drivesrt.com/news/2013/06/srt-hits-television-screens-with-body-and-soul-commercials.html
Aerogel isn't durable in that the constant vibrations would likely cause it to lose its insulating properties or just fall off. They could probably alleviate the exhaust heat transfer to the cabin by adding some ventilation to the enclosure...OR they could stop with the enclosure altogether and just have the exhaust pipes fully exposed along the sides. TBH I never thought it was too hot inside the cabin although it is hotter than average. Roll the windows down.
Maybe, as long as manual is still an option.
I like the side-exit exhausts and they do not sound anything like a civic on the Gen 5.
You can powershift just about any manual car.
Really? Is power something the Viper is lacking? Not saying I'm against after-market fiddling but who is losing races in the Viper because of its power level.
No thanks, I'll keep the V10 but I would like a V12. Would not really be interested in a Viper if it was just another RWD V8 car, of which there are many already.
The Gen 5 was literally released last year. *** man, give it some time. SRT had a tough enough time bringing a car like this to market in the obamaconomy without being on taxpayer life support like GM - so chill and show some patience. And I'll ask again, who is "smokin" your viper right now? Some hick in a sleeveless flannel shirt driving a rusty old pickup with a 426 Hemi in it?
PRECISELY.
2) Dry Sump makes sense on a car that will almost exclusively be racing, i.e. at or near the redline for long durations...but for a car that will be street-driven it doesn't, and the Vette having dry sump adds cost with little benefit. How many vipers are suffering from a lack of lubrication at speed? Gerotor pumps work well and are far more reliable as long as the oil pan and oil pickup are properly designed (which they are in the viper).
4) I'm not opposed to this as an option, but from a business standpoint, it would cost SRT a lot of money in R&D to make this work in the Viper. DCTs are also highly complex and have more possible points of failure; the existing manual may be now considered "a throwback to a bygone era" but it works. If SRT did invest in making a Viper DCT viable, I believe that >90% of the Vipers sold would need to be equipped with the DCT for it to make financial sense. If the Gen 5 does well a DCT might show up on the Gen 6, though not sure if it would be an option or not.
Same thing for me. It gets warm in there, but even in 80-90 degree weather just having the windows down was enough. I think the heat issue is overstated, just like the exhaust drone issue. They exist but they're not nearly as bad as people make them out to be.
1) You sure about direct injection? It's a technology designed for diesel which are almost always turbocharged; on NA gasoline engines direct injection tends to result in frequent and unavoidable carbon buildup on the valves and heads, ultimately leading to a loss of power. Once you pass the ~20K miles mark your engine will need to be disassembled and cleaned regularly, unless you don't mind giving up 10-20% of its rated power. The carbon buildup process is slow at first, but between cleanings it builds up faster because there's already a fine layer stuck on the metal that doesn't come off with cleaning.
2) That's more of a political issue - stop voting for dipsh!t liberals and do not support any politician that advocates passing laws in the name of preventing "climate change" or any other faith-based science. The EPA does not need to exist as long as we have reasonable laws regarding the way we deal with pollutants.
4) Add to that an option to have the car delivered with primer only so that we can have it custom-painted.
5) I have a titanium exhaust on another car of mine, which I bought and installed as an aftermarket item. It's awesome. The total exhaust including muffler weighs about 10 lbs, compared to the stock exhaust which was around 40 lbs. I don't see why this can't be an aftermarket option for the viper. I'd get it.
6) Vette has one but doesn't need it so the viper guys want one too. It won't provide any benefit considering its cost to implement and its additional complexity.
7) Why? Other cars have this because they're trying to squeeze more out of limited displacement. Viper does not have displacement issues; its hydraulic roller setup works well and is reliable.
As for me, aside from better quality floormats, I don't think the Viper needs any changes. Actually there is one thing - factory-installed "clear bra" type of material on all leading surfaces. That and having better aftermarket options would be nice, but I'm just going to exercise patience on that one.
Fatboy 18
Enthusiast
Thanks for the link, I had not seen that.
Not bad, but I would like something with a bit more edge to it
strykergts
Enthusiast
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As i have stated, and several others, the engineers can make the car the best in the world and it still would not sell because the marketing team is so bad on the new gen v. I still have people ask me if my car is a 2010 because they have no clue that there is a new viper out. I just had a fellow car guy look at me in complete disbelief that there was a 2013 viper. This is the root of the problem all together. There are probably 500 buyers for those vipers sitting around looking for a car right now that would love a new viper, but have no clue they exist. Sadly, they all know about the new stingray though......
"Car guys" all know the new Viper is out. The people who probably don't know are people like pro athletes and TV/movie stars. I've known one pro (football) and he literally window shopped for cars as he drove past dealers. This is a car that would really appeal to them, I think, but it needs to be on TV and advertised in stadiums. 500 unsold cars on lots is at least 50 million in unsold product. That's a lot.
ohlarikd
Enthusiast
I find this commercial creepy at best...
