Mopar / SRT - Pay Attention.

The C7 Corvette has been out for 2 weeks. There are already dozens of aftermarket parts and tuning for the car, and R&D going on with numerous big-name manufacturers of performance parts. Just take a peek at the thread titles posted in this forum, to get an idea:

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c7-tech-performance-169/

Then ask yourself, where did SRT/Mopar go wrong? If the aftermarket doesn't embrace the vehicle, it will die. When the aftermarket is excited about a vehicle, it also serves as free advertising for your brand.

Do something about it.

Bingo!

What will happen when the forced induction version of the C-7 comes out?
I've had 5 vettes in the past, and I always thought/felt the Viper was an upgrade and the next move up in the food chain.

Once the performance version of the C-7 comes out, can you honestly feel the same way when comparing it to the Gen V?

I think they went wrong with the price of the car.

The viper is so outrageously priced and exclusive that only a handful of enthusiasts actually purchase them. Those that do are probably die hard viper fans.

The C7 is just all around a far FAR better bang for the buck, and that's what people want. That sells in volumes that draws the aftermarket to make the parts.

Nineball you nailed it. since getting back in the ZR1 all I see on the Vette forum is advertising for aftermarket parts and testing on the C7. LPE has a blower kit, and almost all have headers and tune while working on cams. when i picked my ZR1 up from 21st Century Muscle Cars in Dallas they were testing 3 different cam and header packages on their C7. they also had a track viper there and when i asked about the Gen 5 one tech said "chrysler got dumb and locked the computer, nothing to do".

You are wrong on several counts. The viper has always been at least a 30% premium over a vette. A friend just bought a Z51, it was over 70K, it is not near the total package my 98k SRT is. The areas where the viper excels (versus the vette) are numerous. Secondly, when the ZO6 and ZR1 come out do you think they will be south of 100k.

You are just like a whole bunch of other half informed enturdiests that always start a comparison with a 140k GTS. Do you think the GTS is faster than a SRT?

Magnus_ said:

I think they went wrong with the price of the car.

The viper is so outrageously priced and exclusive that only a handful of enthusiasts actually purchase them. Those that do are probably die hard viper fans.

The C7 is just all around a far FAR better bang for the buck, and that's what people want. That sells in volumes that draws the aftermarket to make the parts.

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Until the Viper game opens up I am perfectly content with my ACR and as much as I want a new one I will not purchase only to be stiffed with the same lack of goodies or less that my ACR has.

Maybe some day.

Even Kia and Scion know this.

Price is so not an issue. You can get a great setup SRT under $110k with the new prices, even less with a '13. The high end vette will be right in that range. The difference? The vette you can do anything you want, the viper, change the air filter and get an engine code.

Does this matter to many? I dunno. FWIW I can personally say I set 6 figures in cash in my new viper account last yr with VOI showing me the car, driving it, and hearing over and over how they've built the internals to accommodate our desires for mods. And then, leave the locks on, well then I leave my cash in the bank. Wife and son ask me regularly when I'm buying one, I keep saying when SRT builds one I want and by that I mean opens the mod market, either thru MOPAR or aftermarket.

This is one thing, hec only one of two things, the other being their horrible marketing, that ****** me off about SRT. I love 'me, but good lord, this is really frustrating. 3 vipers in and I still love my gen4 but I'd be lying if I didn't admit I'm looking around, same car for a long time and no modding to spice things up. C'mon.

Hate to be a downer, but Chrysler is not going to come up with anything but cat-back, stickers and air filters. GM just released some serious parts for the Camaro. Challenger has been out since 2008 and nothing significant. I don't see anything in the future. Sorry, it is a tough pill to swallow.

Aren't the PCMs on the GTR locked as well? From my understanding, most aftermarket tuners use MoTeCs on them anyways...

no, infact the stock GTR pcm is quite powerful and people commonly make upwards of 1400 rhwp with them.

They're not locked.

Like just about all aftermarket areas on the Viper, because there is no volume of cars sold, its not worth the time for aftermarket vendors to develop the product.

The other hope is an aftermarket vendor has a vested interest in the platform due to either passion or individual ownership and wishes to develop product knowing that it won't be a profitable venture.

Magnus_ said:

The other hope is an aftermarket vendor has a vested interest in the platform due to either passion or individual ownership and wishes to develop product knowing that it won't be a profitable venture.

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I hoped for this one for a while LOL.

VRYALT3R3D said:

Aren't the PCMs on the GTR locked as well? From my understanding, most aftermarket tuners use MoTeCs on them anyways...

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But the AFTERMARKET for the GT-R is a thriving one.

Same goes for the C7.

Both of those cars have MASSIVE followers, therefore the tuning options are endless. I'm sure the TT gen V that RSI built uses a stand alone as well. I'm more curious how they managed to get all the tech bits on the dash to work.

Like others have said, you'll see the parts revealed at SEMA and then a year later, maybe half of them are available.

It amazes me just how much Diablosport has been able to achieve with a plug and play system for the gen I LX Hemi's. 2011 looked like a promising year when all the cars got a refresh, holy crap the 392 was back! That was big deal. Then something happened, everything became rather beige and everyone realized the new LX's just weren't worth buying cause the cars are limited to simple things. Those guys even started a petition to get codes released and nothing happened.

Tony said it best. If the aftermarket doesn't embrace the vehicle, it will die. The Viper is whatever you want to call it. Supercar, sports car, muscle car, etc. What it's not, is a Toyota Camry. Stop trying to make the damn thing a daily driver to attract the eurofarts. Rain mode? Seriously? Does the Vette have cylinder deactivation too? Does it become a Cobalt?

--RS

I cant help but voice my opinion..

You are comparing a 100-150k very limited semi exotic vehicle to a 50-75k massed produced sports car.

To put it in perspective there were more Gallardos made than gen3 and gen4 vipers.

The aftermarket follows money. a 30k a year mass produced corvette in which 20% of its owners will likely modify is financially a smart move for aftermarket developers to steike on.


A 2000 a year specialty vehicle in which 10% of its owners will modify it no where near somthing to jump on whatsoever

Twister said:

I cant help but voice my opinion..

You are comparing a 100-150k very limited semi exotic vehicle to a 50-75k massed produced sports car.

To put it in perspective there were more Gallardos made than gen3 and gen4 vipers.

The aftermarket follows money. a 30k a year mass produced corvette in which 20% of its owners will likely modify is financially a smart move for aftermarket developers to steike on.


A 2000 a year specialty vehicle in which 10% of its owners will modify it no where near somthing to jump on whatsoever

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To that point, then why worry about locking the PCM down?

Twister said:

I cant help but voice my opinion..

You are comparing a 100-150k very limited semi exotic vehicle to a 50-75k massed produced sports car.

To put it in perspective there were more Gallardos made than gen3 and gen4 vipers.

The aftermarket follows money. a 30k a year mass produced corvette in which 20% of its owners will likely modify is financially a smart move for aftermarket developers to steike on.


A 2000 a year specialty vehicle in which 10% of its owners will modify it no where near somthing to jump on whatsoever

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I see your common sense thought there, but the reality of viper history is that prior to the lock down on the gen4 there are tons of perf options. There are Paxton kits, twin turbo kits, roots charger kits, and heads, and cams, and exhaust, oh my. The gen4 was the end of that. Prior to the gen4 the viper was just as rare and ltd production and we had no shortage of options, now, nothing. Only thing that's changed .. the **** control of the PCM.

I put about 140 miles on my Gen 3 Viper today. It makes about 1,100 rwhp. Using the factory computer with SCT tuning. I can understand the aftermarket not embracing a low-production vehicle, but there is no excuse for MOPAR to not release their own tuning software for the Gen 4 and 5. The software exists, they use it on the factory ACR-X racecars at the track, which still use a factory style computer.

SRT8 V8 market never took off, for the same reason. No real tuning option. The enthusiats and the aftermarket went with GM and Ford, who seem to promote and embrace the aftermarket. I even helped GM start up the LSX drag racing series, which still remains very popular. GM even sells aftermarket engine management systems, for the popular LS engine retrofits into any sort of vehicle.

Mopar? Nothing.

ACRucrazy said:

To that point, then why worry about locking the PCM down?

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It's not.

DMan said:

Only thing that's changed .. the **** control of the PCM.

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Incorrect.

Nine Ball, the adjustments being made on the ACR-X are done using OE (not for distribution) tools, and the changes that were made were extremely minor.

Just got the oil changed on my 911 Turbo S,at the dealer, they have a showroom full of aftermarket parts for it and will put install them for ya.I mean,what is SRTs
issue with allowing people to upgrade their cars.I, with several friends,have not bought and will not buy new Gen. 5 til they allow aftermarket parts to the Gen.5.

Magnus_ said:

It's not.



Incorrect.

Nine Ball, the adjustments being made on the ACR-X are done using OE (not for distribution) tools, and the changes that were made were extremely minor.

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Other than arguing semantics, what's your point?

The point of the thread is simple, prior to gen4, we were modding our cars and tuning with SCTs all we wanted, since 2008, nada. A gen5 can't even change an air filter. SRT needs to address this HUGE limitation. If I move to another car and dump my gen4, I'll pick up a gen3 and tweak it up like I did before and be done with the future of viper and it's interior cf accents or whatever. Pfft.

FLL-B/W-GTS said:

Just got the oil changed on my 911 Turbo S,at the dealer, they have a showroom full of aftermarket parts for it and will put install them for ya.I mean,what is SRTs
issue with allowing people to upgrade their cars.I, with several friends,have not bought and will not buy new Gen. 5 til they allow aftermarket parts to the Gen.5.

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Hey, what do ya know, I'm not alone, count me and your friends for the must be able to mod list. An, You have an S? (Lol, just kiddin). Much respect.

DMan, so why didn't SCT release the product for the Gen4 then?

My guess is because there is no way the Gen3 product was profitable. There are much bigger markets to go after that require the same or less amount of resources to develop for.

It is curious, because I've been told that Ralph isn't running around on a stock car. So, come on Mr. Gilles, give us lowly purchasers the same goodies.

I use the SCT on my G2. The reason that software exists is that it works on several different CC platforms, therefore, higher volume. Keep in mind that SCT was and still is slanted toward Ford.

GM is no different than CC, they lock their ECU, it is the aftermarket hacks that broke the codes. I have a Solstice GXP with a factory turbo, it took HP Tuners two years to totally crack that ECU. They actually were beat to the market by some small independent tuners. The ECU controlling the direct injection on the Solstice was a Bosch controller. They were not familiar with it, that was the reason for the two year delay. Just a guess, however, the code on the C7 may be similar to the Bosch code and that is the reason they broke the code so quickly.

Magnus_ said:

DMan, so why didn't SCT release the product for the Gen4 then?

My guess is because there is no way the Gen3 product was profitable. There are much bigger markets to go after that require the same or less amount of resources to develop for.

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Thank you NINE BALL.

It is crazy to see the vette, mustangs, camaros selling and selling and selling and the same for the aftermarket developing new cool things every day.

All I ask for my viper is the chance to tune the **** ECU to make another 25-50whp with the bolt ons that I already have. Would be pretty happy with this car for a while.
If this option of tuning the car don't come thru I will have to do something more extreme like 4.10 gears to enjoy the car. Right now it feels like a 4 cyl. close to my mustang.

Here is a sample of the new Corvette, and this is just a tidbit. The cars QC is absolutely horrendous, it will be real interesting to see once they start to get some miles on them how they start to fall apart. http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c7-...c7-factory-paint-and-infotainment-issues.html

The fact that threads like this still have to be made since 2008 tells you that SRT is NOT listening to its owner/enthusiast(potential buyer) base. A whole new Gen Viper is out with the same issue from the last generation. Its not by mistake this is happening imho. Imho its more than just propriety ECU thats made by another entity. Why not have that same entity make an off road ECU or allow in house tweaks of that ECU or whatever tuning needs the customer base wants? Its only good for business. Make a product people want and can customize it to their desire and they will come. Simple marketing. Almost every car in this class has aftermarket or factory support for additional performance.

After reading that article about how the top guys at SRT turned down any direction that would have made the Viper revolutionary you cant help but understand why this is happening and why it seems SRT cant get out of its own way as a whole since. These are the same folks that gave us the sage answers that CCBS, MRS are gimmicks and have no real advantage etc. The corporate mentality needs to change or the Viper will die because of it.

I personally think some of these decissions are made above Ralphs head and there probably isnt much he can do at this point. At least there is a G5 thanks to Ralph getting them to listen but I dont know if Ralph can rescue it again. A lot of damage has been done to SRT's and the Vipers image. Imho nothing short of a complete direction change will undo the damage done. Opening up the ECU and allowing aftermarket to tune the Viper would be a HUGE step in the right direction. People will forget a lot of what transpired in the past year if they start listening to what the owners/enthusiasts want.

I don't care about the QC of the Corvette. The aftermarket doesn't care about the QC of the Corvette, either. This thread is about being able to modify vehicles. All generations of Viper owners should care about this, even if they do not choose to modify them. The ability to modify them helps with resale, later on. If you need an example, the values of the '06 coupe are holding steady, as they are the only Gen 3/4 coupe body style that can be easily modified. Hence the reason that I won't be selling mine.

While I agree that I would of hoped the aftermarket would be all over the Viper you also have to understand their standpoint. They can spend precious R&D money and sell to a few hundred Gen V owners or spend the same amount of R&D money and collaborate with others even to sell to 10s of thousands of C7 owners.
Best bet is for OEM suppliers to come out with a high performance part as the R&D was paid for the OEM part. Companies like Borla, Corsa, etc from past SRT vehicles. My SRT truck has all MOPAR exhaust from long tubes to cat delete to cat back and it is all stamped Borla in hidden areas.

For all the people who say the price is too high, yes I would have liked to see it down around $75k starting but that is unrealistic with the low production and manufacturing tech used. Take a 1996 Viper GTS it was base sticker price at $66700. In today's dollars just with inflation what cost $66700 in 1996 would cost $96367.08 in 2012. Now add in the Touch screen NAV, traction control, an interior that is 100times better with leather, not vinyl and plastic and you have a $100k+ car.
Oh and you have an extra 190hp too by the way...
In 1996 for people to have 640hp Vipers they were paying over $100k too. Prices have not changed as much as everyone makes them seem.