Gen V ACR Needed For Ring Time

JG01 said:

New GTR just took our ring time with a 7:08.

SRT

we need our GEN V ACR to bring it back home.

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Very true statement about the new GT R model called the Nismo edition and it has taken the record. The ACR X is a track only car where the new GT R is a street legal car. Have to take my ACR record stickers off for the time being as it has been officially beaten at the Ring. Records are made to be broken and I dont turn a blind eye to those who do.

Again, isn't the TA that every day Viper which guys can take to the track (for a fairly reasonable $120K)? Does the G5ACR need to be so obtainable? Is the Nismo obtainable to most Nissan buyers? How about the Porsche GT3 RSR? Remember, the ACR didn't sell so great (after the initial wave of buyers), even after the Ring record was set. I think it did a lot for the brand, even if it was a 'privateer' effort.

bluestreak said:

I think we would both be guessing to say which is more important, but would probably agree that they do in fact work together.

My point is one of diminishing return on investment. How much more does your impractical, unobtanium for most, all out Viper do for the brand at a 6:59 than my slightly less impractical and more obtainable and in line ACR at 140k with a 6:04 lap time? I think pretty much nothing as most people are not going to buy a 200k Viper to begin with let alone one made specifically for the track. Part of the reason the Gen IV ACR was so spectacular was it's costs. You couldn't find anything remotely as fast for anywhere near the same money.

When I say support, I'm not talking just about dealership support, but money invested in constant incremental improvements. Similar to Nissan and Porsche, which boost sales regularly. Regularly keeping the car in the eyes of customers with rumors of faster ring times, less drag, more power or DF etc. OR even a new track setup from SRT, customized track setups for owners at tracks based on the testing and lap records they achieve. All of that costs money too.

I want the Viper to stay practical so people will actually drive it at the track. At 200k, that doesn't happen very often at all, there will just more garage queens.

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Boxer12 said:

Again, isn't the TA that every day Viper which guys can take to the track (for a fairly reasonable $120K)? Does the G5ACR need to be so obtainable? Is the Nismo obtainable to most Nissan buyers? How about the Porsche GT3 RSR? Remember, the ACR didn't sell so great (after the initial wave of buyers), even after the Ring record was set. I think it did a lot for the brand, even if it was a 'privateer' effort.

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Man, both of you guys and others have made some solid points that have me on the fence now on where I stand. For purely selfish reasons, I'd like to see a stripped ACR because it is something that I could see being able to buy some day. No way I could afford a track car if its north of $150K. The TA is nice but man the aero is mild and the car is capable of so much more. On the other hand, I'm with Rich RW99 and Boxer on the importance of the 'Ring record. If it's not able to break the record, that would be a devastating loss for Viper. I still think it could be both- there could be a base model at $150K and then a group of pricey options to give it over-the-top, 'Ring record busting performance. Maybe the 'Ring buster would be $200K, which is still a far cry cheaper than the Porsche 918 and perhaps in the ball park of the Nissan GT-R Nismo. The last 458 that I read a mag review on had over $100K in options. We could have our cake and eat it to if SRT followed that recipe.

As an aside, didn't someone post that the production version of the GT-R Nismo will not be as radical as the one that set the record? Something about a smaller wing, Etc. I couldn't find anything on that. But if so, then this GT-R Nismo is an irrelevant prototype, not an official record holder.

Boxer12 said:

Again, isn't the TA that every day Viper which guys can take to the track (for a fairly reasonable $120K)? Does the G5ACR need to be so obtainable? Is the Nismo obtainable to most Nissan buyers? How about the Porsche GT3 RSR? Remember, the ACR didn't sell so great (after the initial wave of buyers), even after the Ring record was set. I think it did a lot for the brand, even if it was a 'privateer' effort.

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An RSR? Not even remotely street legal. There are two Viper race cars now. The GTS-R and the GT3-R that you can buy, both will be akin to an RSR and not street legal. In addition, SRT could make another ACR-X which is just like a cup car, but much much cheaper, add sequential. But still not street legal, and built for amateur racing as just a caged version of the street going ACR that anyone can buy. You can go an try and buy one of those now.

None of those models fit the mold of an ACR at all. The TA is a semi everyday track car. It's not a ******** barely street legal beast version of the Gen IV like what you have.

I still don't see where you are coming from. SRT has developed TWO full race cars already, and you want them to build a 3rd? I don't see any sense in that taking over the ACR moniker.

It would be an awesome slap in the face it SRT setup a facility at the ring and went back with the Gen IV and beat the Nismo, and then simultaneously beat it by more with the Gen IV ACR (and/or even the TA). That would bring more notoriety to all cars and tell the world SRT is not to be messed with. Doesn't matter how much you beat it by, except the Gen V ACR needs some cushion. And at 140k (they could honestly build the car I'm talking about for 130k) it would make Nissan look stupid charging almost 200k for the nismo.

Imho the Viper Is still a halo car. As such its value to SRT is beyond its sales figures. An ACR that is radical and that beats the Porsche 918 record would be priceless. I don't think the car has to be 200k either. It should be no more than 150k as it will eschew a lot of the luxury items of the GTS or even the SRT model. I think it is essential for there to be an ACR that is either the Ring King or at least in the same ballpark as the top dogs [sub 7 min].

The Viper has mostly been about world beating performance for a good portion of its existence. Especially after the G4 ACR you just cant ignore importance of that Ring record as it brought the Viper into rarified air in the automotive world and brought so much positive attention to the brand, though it didn't have a huge affect on sales. But that is what halo cars do. Bring tons of positive attention to the brand. Not many have been better at that than the past Vipers. It needs the ACR to do that again as its obvious the current car is not "enough" to do this. I say that with no disrespect or bias intended in any way.

If the Viper is not going to be as fast as its competition in the straights then it has to pulverize them on the track by more than .01 secs like the G4 ACR did. Its always been an overthetop brash kind of car. It needs the performance to back that up vs the competition it has in this era. The ACR is the only model that can accomplish this imho, not the TA. The standard car is very sweet but it is not a world ******. Its obvious this can be accomplished with their shoestring budget if they put the money to use in the right place. You don't need KERS etc to run sub 7 min laps. Just a smartly engineered light weigh car using tried and true go-fast methods just like the old ACR did. A DCT would help though.

Can't argue much with that. But it's not going to be as easy as show up for a day and leave with the record when manufacturers are now building cars just to blaze ring times. And they have a million dollar car to do it with. The hypercar wars have just begun. SRT best get their moneys worth by getting the most out of the car to begin with. Will take more than a day or two privateer effort to get the most out of the car.

Correction..I meant GT3 RS 4.0 not the race version RSR. My main point is simple, I don't agree that ultimate sales price (keeping it affordable for the masses) should guiding point that holds back the development of the car. Develop the best car you can. For example, put CC brakes on it (price it as a $12k option like everyone else)..what do you care if anybody clicks that box when buying the car, so long as it attains the goal of Ring **********? My belief is there will be people who click that box to get the best performing car possible, who have the money to do so. My other belief is that a lot of guys just don't want to see it because they know they cannot afford it and don't want the 'other' Viper buyers to have an option for a better car than they can get.

Tom Francis…..Can you take Trades? I'd like to see what we can work out.

Boxer12 said:

Correction..I meant GT3 RS 4.0 not the race version RSR. My main point is simple, I don't agree that ultimate sales price (keeping it affordable for the masses) should guiding point that holds back the development of the car. Develop the best car you can. For example, put CC brakes on it (price it as a $12k option like everyone else)..what do you care if anybody clicks that box when buying the car, so long as it attains the goal of Ring **********? My belief is there will be people who click that box to get the best performing car possible, who have the money to do so. My other belief is that a lot of guys just don't want to see it because they know they cannot afford it and don't want the 'other' Viper buyers to have an option for a better car than they can get.

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The GT3 RS 4.0 is an anomaly. The regular RS is a 150k car, the 4.0 was 185k msrp, and it wasn't at all expensive because of performance. They built that car to homologate the 4 Liter motor for FIA racing as a requirement. The market for the limited production run and last of the legendary mezger motors, plus likely the last manual GT3 drove the price through the roof. People are paying over 300k for these cars now as instant collectibles.

I'd like to see the ACR keep its normal world beating standards without using all of the gadgets and technology. Good ole sledge hammer mentality, because that's how people see the car anyways. If they decided to then use an additional model as a development lap for the Gen VI if there are plans to build one, then so be it. But I think that model would have a prerequisite of having another generation behind it to spend the millions and millions it will take to get the paddle shift and all that jazz in there and crash test and certify it.

Maybe the next ACR-X can be the street legal thing you are talking about, but I don't think that should supplant what we know as the ACR. SRT is more than capable of building something to take the record by several seconds without the need for anything near 200k. I doubt that SRT is at all interested in jumping into a fight with the huge budget million dollar hypercars, because the expectation will be for them to sustain said fight. I would say there is less than a 5% chance of that even being in consideration.

I hope the G5 ACR is an 'anomaly'...that's what SRT needs to sell the Viper imo.

The anomaly is not going to help sell the non anomaly. IMO the anomaly will have enough trouble selling itself for 200k. Porsche didn't have any problems selling the regular GT3 or the 3.8 RS when the 4.0 came out. The other cars will have to sell themselves.

Which is why the TA should have been the SRT, the GTS should have been a heavier, more luxurious version of the TA and then there should have been the ACR. The end.

bluestreak said:

The anomaly is not going to help sell the non anomaly. IMO the anomaly will have enough trouble selling itself for 200k. Porsche didn't have any problems selling the regular GT3 or the 3.8 RS when the 4.0 came out. The other cars will have to sell themselves.

Which is why the TA should have been the SRT, the GTS should have been a heavier, more luxurious version of the TA and then there should have been the ACR. The end.

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Completely agree with this. It would have made much more sense than what it is now. Each model could have had its exclusive color. That TA orange for the SRT model and the Stryker Red for the GTS. 3 models would have been perfect.

I'd love to see SRT put an ACR together that beats the GTR Nismo, that is do-able. What is not doable is to aim to reset the production car record. The 918 has set the benchmark way beyond what a rwd Viper will ever do in street legal form and the 918 has been "allegedly" thrashed by the new Maclaren P1 in completely stock form. The P1 time is yet to be announced but I had a few beers over the weekend with someone that has one on order and the word is they took the record by a big margin. Viper can never compete with that except on value for money. Maclaren set their eyes on the ring and the moment they did that it was game over for SRT, but that takes nothing away from the massive accomplishment a few years back when the ACR did what it did. The budget and technology available to Maclaren is on a different planet to SRT. 900hp, 9.8 sec 1/4 at 152mph stock, 34mpg and emissions as clean as a 2.7 Boxter with F1 technology for the street to make it a challenge even for the LA Ferrari or the 918. $1m cars should be on another level.

Torquemonster said:

I'd love to see SRT put an ACR together that beats the GTR Nismo, that is do-able. What is not doable is to aim to reset the production car record. The 918 has set the benchmark way beyond what a rwd Viper will ever do in street legal form and the 918 has been "allegedly" thrashed by the new Maclaren P1 in completely stock form. The P1 time is yet to be announced but I had a few beers over the weekend with someone that has one on order and the word is they took the record by a big margin. Viper can never compete with that except on value for money. Maclaren set their eyes on the ring and the moment they did that it was game over for SRT, but that takes nothing away from the massive accomplishment a few years back when the ACR did what it did. The budget and technology available to Maclaren is on a different planet to SRT. 900hp, 9.8 sec 1/4 at 152mph stock, 34mpg and emissions as clean as a 2.7 Boxter with F1 technology for the street to make it a challenge even for the LA Ferrari or the 918. $1m cars should be on another level.

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Ask all of the supercar hybrids to average their record runs over 3 consecutive laps.

chorps said:

Ask all of the supercar hybrids to average their record runs over 3 consecutive laps.

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Bingo!!....I'd love to see that! All that extra weight and no juice to be had, lol.

Also, the Nissan GT-R Nismo is not a record because I only consider production cars that can be bought as valid Ring times. Apparently the Ring GT-R will not be available for about a year. Lots of stuff can change in a years time.

George

TrackAire said:

Bingo!!....I'd love to see that! All that extra weight and no juice to be had, lol.

Also, the Nissan GT-R Nismo is not a record because I only consider production cars that can be bought as valid Ring times. Apparently the Ring GT-R will not be available for about a year. Lots of stuff can change in a years time.

George

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George,

The Nismo that ran the record time is a pretty unique machine, apparently the tune may not even be available in all markets (ie. not street legal or might have long term durability issues). Also the configuration is pretty specific as well...I'd guess that the GT-R Nismo is closer to an ACR-X than an ACR, anyhow.

Props to Nissan anyhow for a great run, just shows you can game the 'rules', if there are any rules, pretty hard when it comes to 'production' spec machines.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2013/11/nismo-ring-gt-r-not-so-fast/

Panels are not seam welded, but adhesive reinforced though.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1311_2015_nissan_gt_r_nismo_first_drive/

The wing on the 'ring car wasn't supposed to be produced but after the outcry about 'production car' record, Nissan is going to make that wing available, hopefully it won't be a ludicrously priced option (ahem, Mopar).

Problem is when the next ACR is ready to go to the 'Ring in a year or two, Nissan will have the next iteration of GT-R out with an even faster 'Ring time. So don't target 7:08, target sub 7 minute laps.

I just don't see the point, personally, in spending tons of money chasing the fastest lap time at the ring. Big F'ing deal in the long run, because it will be beat eventually. If you happen to beat it, fine, great.

Why not invest that money in making the Viper a better car for enthusiasts at home who want to track their cars instead? I think the ROI there is beyond what you get from chasing some fleeting record.

ViperSmith said:

I just don't see the point, personally, in spending tons of money chasing the fastest lap time at the ring. Big F'ing deal in the long run, because it will be beat eventually. If you happen to beat it, fine, great.

Why not invest that money in making the Viper a better car for enthusiasts at home who want to track their cars instead? I think the ROI there is beyond what you get from chasing some fleeting record.

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I agree. It won't sell anymore cars and they won't beat the times million dollar hyper-cars are going to put up.
Put that money into some advertising or product development.

ViperJon- I normally agree but In this case the Ring record was the best thing that ever happened to the Viper. Just look at the ACR pricing now. They would never be still worth 85-90,000 If they didn't break the record. Dodge could not afford to pay for all the free advertising it received from the record.

ACR steve said:

ViperJon- I normally agree but In this case the Ring record was the best thing that ever happened to the Viper. Just look at the ACR pricing now. They would never be still worth 85-90,000 If they didn't break the record. Dodge could not afford to pay for all the free advertising it received from the record.

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I agree totally Steve it was monumental at the time but I just don't think they have a chance of reclaiming the title in this era of manufacturers throwing millions into developing these super cars now. So the question is what is a third place time worth? You saw the time Porsche put up and you would know better than anyone how hard that would be to get close to. Not to mention how blurred the definition of what a production car is.

ViperJon said:

I agree totally Steve it was monumental at the time but I just don't think they have a chance of reclaiming the title in this era of manufacturers throwing millions into developing these super cars now. So the question is what is a third place time worth? You saw the time Porsche put up and you would know better than anyone how hard that would be to get close to. Not to mention how blurred the definition of what a production car is.

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If you can't win, change the game.

The fact is companies are building cars specifically to set 'Ring records.

Could SRT do it? Quite possibly. But, in the world of the P1 and 918, lets be honest they are being out gunned.

It would be bad if the Gen V ACR came in behind the 918, P1, LaFerrari then people started the "well it is a lot cheaper" game - because people used the "It is cheaper and beat cars 10x its price" with the Gen IV ACR.

I think SRT could do it, but IMHO it should be an after thought. Build the program better for the people that will BUY and race the car.

We saw what the ACR-X did, that sets a pretty tall order to beat in its own right.

ViperJon said:

I agree totally Steve it was monumental at the time but I just don't think they have a chance of reclaiming the title in this era of manufacturers throwing millions into developing these super cars now. So the question is what is a third place time worth? You saw the time Porsche put up and you would know better than anyone how hard that would be to get close to. Not to mention how blurred the definition of what a production car is.

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I'll be impressed with the 918 or the P1 when they take a unit onto the track that came off the standard production line. Pre-production models are just that, not something you can buy. I'll even wager to say that the 918 that set the fast time doesn't even have a VIN or can be sold to the general public.

The manufacturers all have computer programs that will get within seconds of what the car can actually run at the Ring. When you see big name brands not make attempts it is because they cannot turn in a good time. The 2010 ACR Ring record was more luck than anything else....bad conditions, the twin ACR broke down, lack of time and testing, having to "borrow" extra track time from the producers of "Rush" etc. Even the 2010 ACR (street legal production car) has more speed in it if the conditions were better and the drivers had more track time. The Gen 5 will probably be faster still if the aero and tires can be worked out. You won't see the Gen 5 get on the track until SRT has proof of a fast time based on their calculations.

It really is ok to be 3rd or 4th fastest at the Ring if the only cars ahead of you are $875K or more. I can't see anything beating the 7:12 time that isn't in the hyper bucks range. The 2014 GTR Nismo doesn't even exist yet and reports are this was a specially tuned version that probably would not meet US emissions. The only car I see that has a chance is the new Vettes coming out. They will need some pretty radical aero to compete, but they are the only thing under $500k that is a threat to the old Gen 4 ACR time. Should be a very exciting summer at the Ring for 2014.

George

ACRBruce said:

Problem is when the next ACR is ready to go to the 'Ring in a year or two, Nissan will have the next iteration of GT-R out with an even faster 'Ring time. So don't target 7:08, target sub 7 minute laps.

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Best reply yet and very true.

TrackAire said:

I'll be impressed with the 918 or the P1 when they take a unit onto the track that came off the standard production line. Pre-production models are just that, not something you can buy. I'll even wager to say that the 918 that set the fast time doesn't even have a VIN or can be sold to the general public.

The manufacturers all have computer programs that will get within seconds of what the car can actually run at the Ring. When you see big name brands not make attempts it is because they cannot turn in a good time. The 2010 ACR Ring record was more luck than anything else....bad conditions, the twin ACR broke down, lack of time and testing, having to "borrow" extra track time from the producers of "Rush" etc. Even the 2010 ACR (street legal production car) has more speed in it if the conditions were better and the drivers had more track time. The Gen 5 will probably be faster still if the aero and tires can be worked out. You won't see the Gen 5 get on the track until SRT has proof of a fast time based on their calculations.

It really is ok to be 3rd or 4th fastest at the Ring if the only cars ahead of you are $875K or more. I can't see anything beating the 7:12 time that isn't in the hyper bucks range. The 2014 GTR Nismo doesn't even exist yet and reports are this was a specially tuned version that probably would not meet US emissions. The only car I see that has a chance is the new Vettes coming out. They will need some pretty radical aero to compete, but they are the only thing under $500k that is a threat to the old Gen 4 ACR time. Should be a very exciting summer at the Ring for 2014.

George

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I think we can agree, as long as the Viper bests the Vette, thats all that matters

So, you guys all agree its pointless to try to best the GT-R? Really? The Bowtie will be going for the overall record with the new ZR1, no? Or, Chevy will be content just to beat the ACR?

Boxer12 said:

So, you guys all agree its pointless to try to best the GT-R? Really? The Bowtie will be going for the overall record with the new ZR1, no? Or, Chevy will be content just to beat the ACR?

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The Z06/ZR1 will not best the P1 or the 918. While they have the funds, I don't see them dedicating it to even attempting it.

Now at least some people are thinking rationally. SRT will not be able to steadily keep pace with the relatively unlimited budget of million dollar supercars. They are on too small of a budget to keep up with the technology available to these other cars. Once they get in that fight, the same people will be expecting them to keep pace, and it's not gonna happen in the long run on a shoestring budget.

The costs of beating the P1, LaFerrari and 918 is going to be astronomical compared to just beating everything else, and beating the magazine king GT-R and Vette and other Porsches will get plenty enough pub and cost millions less.

Now I will say this, the 1M supercars are not going to come out with new versions every year, or every couple of years their customers would be highly PO'd so beating them would be spectacular, but they could go and add a new aero package and go several seconds faster.

Is it me or does it seem that since the ACR crushed the production car record it seems like every car mfg is now aiming for that title. Prior to the ACR, I know Porsche and Nissan seemed to be the chief rivals at that track in the past few decades and you also had a lot of privateer efforts. You always had the specialty cars like the Donkervoorts, 7's etc running for the best lap title period. Honda also achieved an incredible time for that era of 7:56 with the NSX-R. It was out gunned by way over 100hp and even more torque by the C5 Z06 yet it tied the Z06 with that 7:56 time if my memory serves. So we had some great battles between mfg before the G4 ACR. But it seems like since the Viper just dominated almost all comers in its era that really got the goat of the Euro mfg's imho.

I think that now that the sleeping giants like Porsche, Mclaren, Ferrari etc are now very very serious about that production car title we will have to catagorize things differently from now on. That is if you want to see your non Hypercar "forum car" be at the top of any list again. The Euro elite mfg's no longer want to see a lesser car even approach and beat their finest. Understandable.

I don't know about most of you but I'd be extremely happy with the Viper being the fastest car on the Ring under 1 million bucks. I think that can be achieved. As already mentioned it's just not going compete with the high dollar budget hypercars with its paltry budget. Unless they convert a few GT3R's to street legal specs as an ACR while keeping the weight under 3k lbs. That will be a much more expensive car than most want. But that is the only way SRT can compete with those million dollar cars from the Euro-bloc.

These cars were in development long before the acr set the ring record. It takes many years of planning to put a 1m super car together. An acr is hardly going to incite mega manufacturers to build a 1m car to beat it. Especially when they are already selling more units of slower than acr cars. The bean counters have to approve the cars, they have to be designed tested tuned and crashed tested for every major market. It takes several years to build a car from scratch.