Twin Turbo kit for your Gen V

All,

I'm not a vendor and I'm not trying to sell you anything. However, what I am trying to do is gauge interest on something pretty darn cool. With that being said...

No commitments here, but please tell me on a scale of 1 to 10 how likely you would be to buy a TT kit for your car if the following package was offered:

1. *Bolt-on 1,000 RWHP*
2. Lifetime warranty on all turbo package components (only TOP of the line components used in the kit)
3. Can be professionally installed for $3,995 *OR* you can install it yourself (you would need to be mechanically inclined to perform this install. It's not a weekend job, either).
4. All OEM gauages and factory computers continue to function (car looks and sounds stock until you stab the gas pedal or pop the hood)
5. Turbo kit is offered by a very reputable company holding multiple world records in the mile
6. Price is $19,995 for the kit

Once installed no tuning is necessary as the out of the box bolt-ons would provide a conservatively tuned system that will readily make 1,000 RWHP. However, one could adjust the boost and tune the system for more power if they so choose (And have the tools). Warranty on turbo kit would remain intact.

I've already fabbed up a few of the more difficult parts and could make this a reality with relatively little time and effort if there were more than a handful who would definitely want one of these kits once they've seen them on the streets and laying down some numbers.

Just testing the waters to see if this is worth the effort.

I appreciate your feedback.

$20k for bolt-on kit would be great. If you could actually pull it off, I would be at 10 when I pick up my Gen V this spring, as I'm a sucker for turbos, but I fear the tuning and compatibility with the ECU and factory electronics/dash may be an issue at this price point. Pull it off, and you will have quite a few beating your door down. A reputable company doing it would also be great!

Malu59RT,

We actually know each other (from years back on other forums).

Thanks for the feedback!!! That's what I like to hear!

Thanks!

I think at $20 you'd have a good price point

I'd really be interested to know how you are going to handle "fuel management" at that price point.

aries,

We've done a lot of custom tuning and turbo work over the years. Due to our experience we know a few tricks that makes this an affordable solution.

would be interested but would need the details and would have to see the kit. I have had many and there is a big difference between them.

mbc,

Fair statement and I completely understand! You would be an informed customer! That's what I like to see!

Great idea.

A lifetime warranty is brave however as even "good" components eventually wear out or go south after a few years (and as you know some famous brands don't last 2 years). If you expect to still be around in support when that happens, you may want to cap your liability so you make a profit ;-)

A typical Garrett lasts for years but most are old tech designs, the new BW EFR9180's are state of art but have not been around long enough to know how long they'll live... but they sure spool and deliver reliable performance right now. A single EFR9180 on an LS3 will deliver 800hp at 10lb boost and spool as quickly as a very small T66. The V10 could easily spool 2 of those. Have you tried them?

I would love to see a kit like that.
A yes.... I would like that on my car

You, Sir, have my attention. If all electronics are still good and it could pass an OBDII state emission test ... if it can't do the plug test, then I can't drive it, so that's important in Maryland. Thnx.

Guys,

Thank you very much for the constructive comments!

DMan, I honestly have no idea - in fact, I doubt it would pass the sniff test (I know NOTHING about emissions testing as this State doesn't require it).

Torquemonster,

Yes, we have a lot of experience from 62's all the way up to twin 88's. Thanks for the tips!

DMan said:

You, Sir, have my attention. If all electronics are still good and it could pass an OBDII state emission test ... if it can't do the plug test, then I can't drive it, so that's important in Maryland. Thnx.

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I'm not an expert on this either but as long as you still ran cats and the engine was otherwise stock it should not be unsurmountable to pass a plug test. Adding turbos won't hurt emissions at part throttle, only when boost comes in and they need more fuel. Also adding water injection can clean up Nox

DingDong said:

Guys,

Thank you very much for the constructive comments!

DMan, I honestly have no idea - in fact, I doubt it would pass the sniff test (I know NOTHING about emissions testing as this State doesn't require it).

Torquemonster,

Yes, we have a lot of experience from 62's all the way up to twin 88's. Thanks for the tips!

Click to expand...

They don't do a sniff test on OBD II cars, only on 1995 and older. Essentially, the car would need to have no check engine light on to pass MD Emmissions. MD got rid of the dyno testing and went plug and play.

No check engine lights with this set up. Unfortunately, no cats either. Obviously this is an easy change for most if you want cats but the plan wasn't to offer a catted set up as this hurts spool-up and restricts power (due to back pressure).

Very interested to see what the total package offers. There are two other Viper sites with others that I am sure would like to hear about this potential option.

Simms,

Here are a few more details in regards to the *potential* kit:
High Quality precision 6766 turbos are used along with Tial 50mm wastegates. Non water-cooled and journal bearings. V-Band in/out..
All OEM gauges still work and no check engine lights.
I don't yet know if we'll actually hit 1000 RWHP.. It may only be 900 RWHP... It all depends on where the OEM fuel system runs out of juice - I don't yet know what that point is on a Gen V.

An honest 800hp would work for me, that would keep the kids in there Mustangs at bay for awhile. Would you really have to tear deep into the engine for 800hp

Steve,

Absolutely not.

I'm not in this group, however I'd like to comment. It seems that in this day and age, not considering emissions ramifications seems so foolish. Bottom line is that these new cars meet stringent emissions standards, with those standards come exceptional engine longevity and drivability. I'm going to say that there is no possible way that your going to build a bolt on 1000 rwhp kit that will come close to any real world factory reliability. Like so many kits out there, they all get purchased and flipped in due time. The car is a world class car whose design envelope does not include an increase of 450 additional HP. Every single system in the car would need to be addressed and re-engineered from cooling to transmission/differential.

So you've cracked Chryslers computer that no one else in the automotive industry has been able to do?

Funny how you always see the "gauging interest posts". Are you familiar with Vipers in general, viper community or other viper vendors? I have to say if you were, you wouldnt waste your time posting this thread and know that this kit would sell like hot cakes and alone would be the reason why some of us would bite the bullet and actually buy a gen5.

There's a reason why we only have a couple of viper builders/tunners in the country that are building TT vipers. It's not another supra or ls-powered machine.

In my opinion, if your serious, buy a gen5, build and install the kit and then put together a finished product package. As like some of us on this forum I have been a victim of paying for someone else's education in thepast.

Camfab,

Let's agree to disagree... The car doesn't require a redesign. If you have worked with turbocharging big displacement engines (with forged internals), then you would know that squeezing another 60% out of the engine (in most cases), isn't a huge deal. I'm not interested in a power-adder debate with you, but suffice it to say that it is quite possible, and in fact probable, to do this without redesigning the entire car as you mention. (yes, the OEM clutch won't last one run at the drag strip at this power-level. This much we can agree on.)

Anton,

No, I don't know the Viper community very well. I'm new over here.

Thank you for the advice. I'm actually not looking to retire with this potential package... I was looking to cover my costs and bridge a gap that is quite obvious - as no one really offers sanely priced go-fast packages for these cars (short of N2O)... Quite frankly, it matters not to me if I finish out my Gen V and have fun with it or build 20 of these kits to help the rest of you out.

The tuning issue that most of you are so darn hung up on is relatively easily addressed.

DingDong said:

The tuning issue that most of you are so darn hung up on is relatively easily addressed.

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I believe this is the big question that everyone wants answered or would like more information on. Other than the already known routes of going Motec, AEM Infinity, or Pectel.There have been some BIG power turbo viper builds over the years. The community is no stranger to that.

Interested in a Gen 4 package too !

You might want to review the Precision idea, they use cheap Chinese turbos that look pretty and there are scrap yards full of them, ask around at Yellowbullet forum and the LS community. I'd pay 3k more to get a decent turbo like a Borg Warner AFR that has OEM quality and should last years.

I've driven a 1000hp Viper and recently was co-driver in my buddys one in a road Targa event over a few days. How long the Gen 5 drivetrain will hold up is yet to be determined but the older gens need upgrades - Williams half shafts and Quaife diff being the preferred. The car will be brutal and will require careful attention to heat insulation to avoid turning the interior into a furnace. As a weekend warrior - a beast!

Seriously ..... I can beat his offer - only $179.99 for this unbelievable system. Easy self install, plug and play, Lifetime guarantee ....... No need to worry about any tuning issues .... 1 Million HP ..... I mean 1 Billlllllion HP .......

DingDong said:

Camfab,

Let's agree to disagree... The car doesn't require a redesign. If you have worked with turbocharging big displacement engines (with forged internals), then you would know that squeezing another 60% out of the engine (in most cases), isn't a huge deal. I'm not interested in a power-adder debate with you, but suffice it to say that it is quite possible, and in fact probable, to do this without redesigning the entire car as you mention. (yes, the OEM clutch won't last one run at the drag strip at this power-level. This much we can agree on.)

Anton,

No, I don't know the Viper community very well. I'm new over here.

Thank you for the advice. I'm actually not looking to retire with this potential package... I was looking to cover my costs and bridge a gap that is quite obvious - as no one really offers sanely priced go-fast packages for these cars (short of N2O)... Quite frankly, it matters not to me if I finish out my Gen V and have fun with it or build 20 of these kits to help the rest of you out.

The tuning issue that most of you are so darn hung up on is relatively easily addressed.

Click to expand...

My best advice to you is please do your homework. Research the builders that are currently working on these cars and also the ones that went out of business. There is a reason why no one offers a reasonably priced kit and I can assure you it's not because no one has tried. I'm not here to discourage your or talk **** but as I've said, I've seen so many of these threads in the past and no one has been successfull to this point, because no one has invested enought $$$$ to do it right. I'm on my 3rd Viper my friend. Current one is around 1000hp, my last one was at 1200. I know a thing or two about these cars.

Yep, over time $100k goes nowhere on these cars when pushing 4 digits, there's always something, and people have spent a lot more than that and still had crap. The good thing is the factory built a tough base car, the aftermarket is a long way behind in quality control and things go wrong and break.

All I am going to say is that there is no way that 20K is going to make both a good production kit of acceptable quality for this market, solve the drivetrain issues at that power level, AND solve the fuel/engine management issues... let alone have enough profit to make a good business case for any sane business person. If you are expecting the fuel/engine management to be easily dealt with using mechanical/external/piggy back changes, you are in for a big surprise. Not saying it cannot be done, but it is going to be riddled with issues due to the sensitivity of the Venom controller, and you are in for a big surprise with Ignition timing, even if Flash Tuning does eventually make its way into the market. Any REAL engine management solution for an application such as this is going to eat up 40%+ of your entire budget right off the top, making this price point very, very tough. And that is all before customer service, delays, production issues, and all of the other fun stuff that happens on a low-volume product.

1000 RWHP on a stock engine is absolutely asking for MAJOR reliability issues, for many more reasons than you are taking into account. I could see the 750-ish RWHP ballpark being reliable, but that still doesn't solve all of the issues mentioned above. We are actually working on building a real engine management system that would be at the best price point and capabilities for this market, along with far superior ease and low cost of installation, and I STILL wouldn't touch that price point with a 10-ft pole, even having that major advantage over an outside company. Making even 20% on TT packages is long term business suicide. The after sale support, additional time unaccounted for, delays, and general low-production woes make a very poor case for anything less than high margins, as low margins are eaten up so quickly by the "unaccounted for". Many businesses who partook in the "price wars" found this out first hand.

Also, please note that I am being intentionally vague on problem/solution sets. I am in no way saying this cannot be done in some form... but what I am saying is that I would not want to be involved with the product that would be resulting from it, especially at those margins. What people don't seem to understand is that for low-cost, low volume production, you cut your margins down dangerously. At the same time, you exponentially increase support issues due to quality/design constraints. It is probably the worst case of "bad business" that you can come up with for a complex, high-usage, wear-prone, and complicated installation type product. Low margins work for simple items, and high volume items... which this certainly is not by any stretch.