Since a Stock 2015 Hellcat w/ DR's Just ran 10.85 @126 ph in the 1/4 Mile...

black mamba1 · Jul 21, 2014

I'm #4. Im getting a Hellcat no matter what happens with the Viper. This car is just too bitchin' to pass up...black on black with black wheels...and maybe red racing strips and red trim here and there! Yeah baby! :headbang:

sunsalem · Jul 21, 2014

black mamba1 said:
black on black with black wheels...and maybe red racing strips and red trim here and there! Yeah baby!

Black on Black on Black Rules. :2tu:

05Commemorative · Jul 22, 2014

Now, this makes sense to me. if looking for a fast American made sedan, why in the heck would you get a pos challenger over a Cadillac V. they weigh the same, the caddy is better looking, better overall car and handles better and is mildly boosted from the factory with a huge aftermarket options. But how in the world does a viper come into the conversation? Heck, if you have the $$$, go check out a new AMG instead and have a better car if looking for a fast sedan. But please don't confuse yourself into thinking your are getting a sports car.

sunsalem said:
Black on Black on Black Rules.

black mamba1 · Jul 22, 2014

05Commemorative said:
Now, this makes sense to me. if looking for a fast American made sedan, why in the heck would you get a pos challenger over a Cadillac V. they weigh the same, the caddy is better looking, better overall car and handles better and is mildly boosted from the factory with a huge aftermarket options. But how in the world does a viper come into the conversation? Heck, if you have the $$$, go check out a new AMG instead and have a better car if looking for a fast sedan. But please don't confuse yourself into thinking your are getting a sports car.

Well the technical term is Pony Car...and has a stock Cadillac V run 10.85 in the 1/4 mile? What about 11.2? And the Hellcat looks a helluva lot more masculine and menacing then the Caddy...but hey..thats just my opinion. Folks are lining up around the corner to buy the Hellcat...are folks lining up around the corner to buy the Caddy V? What about the Viper?..or even the AMG?

Last time I checked the Caddy V had 556 hp and weighed 4217 lbs and ran a 12.7 quarter mile almost two seconds slower than the 707 hp Hellcat. The Hellcat will be 3 city blocks ahead of the Caddy V at the end of the 1/4 mile. The Dodge Hellcat won't care whether you consider it a sports car or not. The Hellcat is the John Carlos Story of 2014...the car won't give two sh*ts about what people think about it or what people will call it...the Hellcat will simply kick the competitions ass..put its fist in their faces...and still make them give it its' g*ddamn victory medal.

sunsalem · Jul 22, 2014

Uhh, my point was I like the Black on Black on Black color scheme too.

BTW, my V is a coupe, not a sedan, and weighs 4100 lbs. (100 lbs. < the sedan).

Chrissss · Jul 22, 2014

I'll tell ya while of course I don't know for sure, nobody outside the inner circle of decision makers does, I think this new Charger may spell doom for the Viper. Its no secret the Viper is not selling nearly as well as they hoped. I doubt the Hellcat is an indication that they will boost the Viper. Like I said, I don't know, but with the Hellcat being priced virtually half the cost of the Viper, in my opinion not looking good for Viper longevity. We'll see I guess.

MoparMap · Jul 22, 2014

I don't see why Dodge couldn't build the Viper just because they want a car like that, even if sales aren't through the roof. Look at companies like Lambo and Pagani. Pretty sure their cars don't fly off the shelves. To me it feels like they just build wilds cars for the hell of it because it's what they want to do. They're not all about trying to make the car work for everyone, they just have a vision that they want to offer to like minded people. I know America is all about making money, but can't we also just make stuff that we like? Chrysler is a huge company that sells millions of cars. Just because one premium car doesn't sell well doesn't necessarily mean it has to cease production. The Viper has always been a weird niche market. It's the American exotic. Rarer than a Vette, but way cheaper than most European rivals. It's always had a limited market. I don't want the Viper to compete with the Vette in sales. If it becomes so popular that they sell 10,000 a year it's no longer unique. The Viper is for someone who wants the performance of a Vette but wants to be different and stand out.

SnakeBitten · Jul 22, 2014

If Fiat will allow the Viper to continue to exist as a halo car despite the very slow sales, a la Honda NSX, then I dont mind if it continues the way it does as a pure throwback car with a few tech concessions in the mix. As long as it continues to exist is my concern.

If it "still" is being aimed at the Porsche crowd then they have work to do the attract those kind of clients. The Hellcat is aimed at the right competition and I think the Viper should be aimed at the proper competition as well. Aiming it at the cars like the 911, even though its faster around a track, will inevitably make the average enthusiast shopper compare more than the performance aspects of both offerings. Thats not a comparison the Viper will win most of the time and sales reflects a bit of that.

PDCjonny · Jul 22, 2014

MoparMap said:
I don't see why Dodge couldn't build the Viper just because they want a car like that, even if sales aren't through the roof. Look at companies like Lambo and Pagani. Pretty sure their cars don't fly off the shelves.

First month of availability Lamborghini booked 700 orders for the new Huracan. From pictures.
They know their market and their clientele. Dodge most certainly does not.

emericr · Jul 22, 2014

Going back to my initial thought that I loved the Gen 1 Viper because it was a no excuse raw car that did not give a damn but killed every supercar on the streets and the track.
The hellcat is doing it again on the streets / dragstrip and have the bragging rights for 1/2 the cost of a somewhat blend looking GTR. What's not to like???
I could actually entertain having the hellcat as a second car and daily drive a used Cayenne TT / X5M for the same price as new Viper GTS or AMG GT...
At that price and hp level, there will be enough enthusiasts to buy it even it may serve a limited purpose like the Viper.
Lambo and other exotic companies all came close to not making it and the reason why they are still alive is because their products are selling well and they have increased their customer base. The Viper cannot continue with its single minded view.
We all have a common love for the Viper and do not want to see it go but it needs to adapt or it will become extinct.

Texas1 · Jul 22, 2014

MoparMap said:
I don't see why Dodge couldn't build the Viper just because they want a car like that, even if sales aren't through the roof. Look at companies like Lambo and Pagani. Pretty sure their cars don't fly off the shelves. To me it feels like they just build wilds cars for the hell of it because it's what they want to do. They're not all about trying to make the car work for everyone, they just have a vision that they want to offer to like minded people. I know America is all about making money, but can't we also just make stuff that we like? Chrysler is a huge company that sells millions of cars. Just because one premium car doesn't sell well doesn't necessarily mean it has to cease production. The Viper has always been a weird niche market. It's the American exotic. Rarer than a Vette, but way cheaper than most European rivals. It's always had a limited market. I don't want the Viper to compete with the Vette in sales. If it becomes so popular that they sell 10,000 a year it's no longer unique. The Viper is for someone who wants the performance of a Vette but wants to be different and stand out.

Well said sir!!! I for one love my Gen V as I'm sure most others who have them do as well. I'm not one to get caught up on my car is faster than yours; there is always some one faster, bigger, stronger. This car is plenty fast!!! Not to mention a work of art. Thank you Dodge/SRT for a fabulous automobile!!!

MoparMap · Jul 22, 2014

emericr said:
...Lambo and other exotic companies all came close to not making it and the reason why they are still alive is because their products are selling well and they have increased their customer base. The Viper cannot continue with its single minded view.
We all have a common love for the Viper and do not want to see it go but it needs to adapt or it will become extinct.

Dodge's customer base is WAY larger than just the Viper though, that's the point. They don't have to sell millions of Vipers for it to survive if their other cars sell well. The Jeep has been taking off lately and the small car market is picking up quite a bit as well. I'll admit it's still a tough business decision to keep around a car that may not be the most profitable thing on the market, but other companies do it to. The LFA comes to mind as Lexus is another huge company that can afford to have a car that they don't build or sell many of.

sunsalem · Jul 22, 2014

emericr said:
The Viper cannot continue with its single minded view.
We all have a common love for the Viper and do not want to see it go but it needs to adapt or it will become extinct.

Exactly.

MoparMap said:
The LFA comes to mind as Lexus is another huge company that can afford to have a car that they don't build or sell many of.

Unfortunately, Toyota has deeper pockets than Chrysler.

PDCjonny · Jul 22, 2014

Lets not forget these foreign manufacturers have a world-wide customer base.
The Viper is US and CA.

emericr · Jul 22, 2014

You may want to rething your analogy.
Lexus did an amazing job marketing a car that did not have hyper car performance but focused on the engineering feat. MSRP was out of this world at $375k but Toyota still presold the bulk of them. In the US, 150 LFAs were initially sold through a two-year lease program to prevent owners from reselling the vehicle for a profit. LFA still today command a very strong resale price (close to MSRP) on the market. production lasted 2 years only.
I would say that Lexus and the rest of the industry would consider the LFA an outstanding marketing success but a failure for the bean counters.
Compare that to the Gen V where the marketing and the actual performance failed to attract new buyers and new GTS cars are selling at 40K off MSRP after 1 year.

MoparMap said:
The LFA comes to mind as Lexus is another huge company that can afford to have a car that they don't build or sell many of.

Twister · Jul 22, 2014

There's not a car I can think of that gives you what the viper does for 100k.

My buddies pushing me hard to get a genV to race his aventador...because he knows the genV is badas in every regard.

Hellcat is badas but geeze. Maybe for a dd or dedicated strip car.....

MoparMap · Jul 23, 2014

emericr said:
You may want to rething your analogy.
Lexus did an amazing job marketing a car that did not have hyper car performance but focused on the engineering feat. MSRP was out of this world at $375k but Toyota still presold the bulk of them. In the US, 150 LFAs were initially sold through a two-year lease program to prevent owners from reselling the vehicle for a profit. LFA still today command a very strong resale price (close to MSRP) on the market. production lasted 2 years only.
I would say that Lexus and the rest of the industry would consider the LFA an outstanding marketing success but a failure for the bean counters.
Compare that to the Gen V where the marketing and the actual performance failed to attract new buyers and new GTS cars are selling at 40K off MSRP after 1 year.

Fair enough, I suppose there are more applicable cars I could have picked, it was just the first that came to mind since I've seen them on TV recently. My main point was more that several manufacturers have a premium high end car offering that isn't necessarily their best seller because they have all their "normal" cars to keep the company profitable. One car in a lineup of 20 not selling as well as hoped doesn't mean the company is doomed and has to cut that car from their offering to survive. The Challenger didn't really sell that well initially because the Camaro and Mustang were in the market first and it didn't quite hit the performance mark due to it's heavy weight. Time will tell if the Hellcat really sells as well as everyone seems to think, but for certain Dodge has bounced back and started eating into the market in several sectors, like the small car market with the Dart. How are ZL1 Camaros and GT500 Mustangs selling? Would be interesting to seel how the Hellcat stacks up once it's been out for a few months.

SnakeBitten · Jul 23, 2014

Twister said:
There's not a car I can think of that gives you what the viper does for 100k.

My buddies pushing me hard to get a genV to race his aventador...because he knows the genV is badas in every regard.

Hellcat is badas but geeze. Maybe for a dd or dedicated strip car.....

The Viper/Hellcat have no chance against the Aventador if that racing is the straightline. Roadcourse is a much different story for the Viper vs Aventador however.

Rapid Transit · Jul 23, 2014

If he knows it 's "badass in every regard", what's keeping, or kept, him from purchasing one? Isn't he the demographics that Dodge lusted after, but failed to attract?

Twister said:
There's not a car I can think of that gives you what the viper does for 100k.

My buddies pushing me hard to get a genV to race his aventador...because he knows the genV is badas in every regard.

Hellcat is badas but geeze. Maybe for a dd or dedicated strip car.....

sunsalem · Jul 23, 2014

SnakeBitten said:
The Viper/Hellcat have no chance against the Aventador if that racing is the straightline.

The AWD is a killer in a straight line.

Roadcourse is a much different story for the Viper vs Aventador however.

I drove an Aventador in Vegas last year and was not impressed.
Cramped and unbelievably difficult to get in & out of.
On the roadcourse, it went into understeer way too easily.
http://www.exoticsracing.com/

SnakeBitten · Jul 23, 2014

sunsalem said:
The AWD is a killer in a straight line.

I drove an Aventador in Vegas last year and was not impressed.
Cramped and unbelievably difficult to get in & out of.
On the roadcourse, it went into understeer way too easily.
http://www.exoticsracing.com/

Well even from a roll, negating the full awd advantage, it would still destroy the Viper. Its a different class of car. The Aventador traps between 134-136mph in the 1/4 and tops out much higher than the Viper does. Sadly even with 640hp and lighter than Aventador weight the Viper can't crack 129mph in the 1/4 mile. You need the likes of the McLaren 12C/650s/F12 to deal with an Aventador. My money is on the Viper on the road course against all of them though.

It always surprises me that big cars like this are so cramped. I had a similar experience with a Ferrari Enzo. So cramped I could not even reach the pedals because the lower dash hit my shins. Closing the door bashed my shoulder/elbows lol. Love these cars still though including the Snake I just cant fit in them.

Twister · Jul 23, 2014

My research suggested the aventador does 131-133 in the quarter??? Fast no doubt...but I think a lightly modded genV could give it a run

Twister · Jul 23, 2014

The 12c seems more in the 134-136 range. That car is just crazy

sunsalem · Jul 23, 2014

SnakeBitten said:
You need the likes of the McLaren 12C/650s/F12 to deal with an Aventador. My money is on the Viper on the road course against all of them though.

I wish Exotics Racing did have a Viper in their corral, but they don't.
None of the cars they have are manuals (I think by design).
Here is the list of cars available to rent:
http://www.exoticsracing.com/Racing-School/exotic-cars.htm

ViperNM · Jul 23, 2014

SnakeBitten said:
If Fiat will allow the Viper to continue to exist as a halo car despite the very slow sales, a la Honda NSX, then I dont mind if it continues the way it does as a pure throwback car with a few tech concessions in the mix. As long as it continues to exist is my concern.

If it "still" is being aimed at the Porsche crowd then they have work to do the attract those kind of clients. The Hellcat is aimed at the right competition and I think the Viper should be aimed at the proper competition as well. Aiming it at the cars like the 911, even though its faster around a track, will inevitably make the average enthusiast shopper compare more than the performance aspects of both offerings. Thats not a comparison the Viper will win most of the time and sales reflects a bit of that.

That, in my opinion, is the marketing blunder that SRT made. Thinking that a BMW/Porsche/Euro Sports Car/ ... buyer would ever buy a SRT GTS Viper. It's 'just a Dodge POS'. Didn't happen and it won't happen. As nice as the full leather GTS Vipers are, you're just not going to convince one of these buyers to buy a Viper. The only exception that I personally have seen (this was a few years ago) is a Porsche GT3 buyer who sold it and bought a Gen IV ACR. He got tired of getting his ass handed to him on the track. Plus they were about $60K cheaper.

If I were king, I would get rid of the GTS and make all the expensive interiors an option. The base or core buyers want a car that is < $110K, reasonably nice inside and fast as hell. Just my 2 cents .....

sunsalem · Jul 24, 2014

The GTS has a beautiful interior...of that, there is no doubt.
But is it worth 40-50k over the SRT?
IMO, not close.

Many dealers stupidly ordered the GTS and loaded it up with options, thereby jacking the Window Sticker way up.
Potential buyers walking around their showrooms take a look at the car and its price and say "Well, I'll never be able to afford a Viper."
And just walk away....putting the car off their radar for future consideration (maybe stop by their local Vette dealer?).
As beautiful as the GTS is, it's a complete marketing failure.

ViperNM · Jul 24, 2014

Yep - spot on

kdaviper · Jul 24, 2014

black mamba1 said:
Well the technical term is Pony Car...and has a stock Cadillac V run 10.85 in the 1/4 mile? What about 11.2? And the Hellcat looks a helluva lot more masculine and menacing then the Caddy...but hey..thats just my opinion. Folks are lining up around the corner to buy the Hellcat...are folks lining up around the corner to buy the Caddy V? What about the Viper?..or even the AMG?

Last time I checked the Caddy V had 556 hp and weighed 4217 lbs and ran a 12.7 quarter mile almost two seconds slower than the 707 hp Hellcat. The Hellcat will be 3 city blocks ahead of the Caddy V at the end of the 1/4 mile. The Dodge Hellcat won't care whether you consider it a sports car or not. The Hellcat is the John Carlos Story of 2014...the car won't give two sh*ts about what people think about it or what people will call it...the Hellcat will simply kick the competitions ass..put its fist in their faces...and still make them give it its' g*ddamn victory medal.

Historically, pony cars are derived from an economy car architecture. The challenger is a muscle car, and therefore derived from a sedan platform.

Chrissss · Jul 24, 2014

ViperNM said:
That, in my opinion, is the marketing blunder that SRT made. Thinking that a BMW/Porsche/Euro Sports Car/ ... buyer would ever buy a SRT GTS Viper. It's 'just a Dodge POS'. Didn't happen and it won't happen. As nice as the full leather GTS Vipers are, you're just not going to convince one of these buyers to buy a Viper. The only exception that I personally have seen (this was a few years ago) is a Porsche GT3 buyer who sold it and bought a Gen IV ACR. He got tired of getting his ass handed to him on the track. Plus they were about $60K cheaper.

If I were king, I would get rid of the GTS and make all the expensive interiors an option. The base or core buyers want a car that is < $110K, reasonably nice inside and fast as hell. Just my 2 cents .....

I have a very good friend, wealthy, who loves the Ferraris Mclarens and Porsche. He has and had several Ferraris, two Mclarens and several Porsches. The last one was a very nice GT3RS. He has no interest in a Viper and doesn't see the car anywhere in the same class, prestige or quality. He likes my Viper but has no interest in owning one.

Torquemonster · Jul 25, 2014

Top Gear loves the Hellcat and has this to say about how Viper will respond over the next 2 years:

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/dodge-challenger-srt-hellcat-review-2014-7-23

"Company insiders hinted that the Viper is being completely rethought. Now that Fiat and Chrysler are one company, all technology is being shared across the company – including Ferrari’s for the first time – which opens the door to a possible hybrid Viper. That car could use the Hellcat engine and add an electric motor giving the Dodge supercar over 900bhp. The company is also researching possible four-wheel drive systems for the car, which wouldn’t appear for a couple of years yet…"

not authoritative, but interesting! (sorry for underlining - cut and paste and can't remove it)

Since a Stock 2015 Hellcat w/ DR's Just ran 10.85 @126 ph in the 1/4 Mile...

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