Gen V forum posting vitriol discourages SRT/Dodge participation

Bruce H. · Jul 22, 2014

I had the pleasure of spending considerable time with a number of SRT/Dodge's senior management as their guest at the Tudor Race the weekend before last, and met another couple this past weekend at Homecoming. What a great bunch of passionate and knowledgeable enthusiasts, and I found them all candid and sincere when answering questions. As I listened to them I realized that they could address forum user criticisms and diffuse concerns that are constantly discussed here. When asked why they don't I learned that in some cases they had in the past, not necessarily under their own names, and it was clear from some that it was the attitudes of some (or many) members that had discouraged them from doing so.

Let me ask you these questions...

-Do you really think that SRT is the only one to give Motor Trend or other magazines a mule or test car that had some difficiencies from previous testing that obviously were not representative of what customers would receive? Do you think the rags would generally give the manufacturer a chance to provide a proper test sample...or would they condemn the car when they knew an individual(s) had screwed up the prep of the car? And would they really conduct the test with an obviously faulty car and rank it last knowing their test car was in no way representative of the model's production quality?

-How do you know that the 8.4 V10 can easily run 700 hp or more with a more aggressive factory tune and still meet durability and reliability requirements. Are you sure the existence of forged components in the engine really means it was designed and tested for forced-induction?

-While the Hellcat would certainly have been durability tested for use in the Challenger, would anyone here really know whether the Hellcat could survive use in the Viper under its testing procedures?

-Is it possible that there are a wide range of things we argue over and criticize that maybe we just don't have the inside scoop on?

-Is it possible that there really is a 2015 Viper planned, and an announcement would have been made if it wasn't? I asked them about A-Z but felt it completely unnecessary and insulting to ask them if there was going to be a 2015.

-When Ralph addressed sales missing an annual unit level they had thrown out once as simply being an estimated volume, and not being the volume that they needed for the car to be viable, is it possible he was being accurate? And is it possible that the car is maybe profitable, or profitable enough, at even existing levels? Afterall, Dodge recently made it their halo car...not something they'd do if it was anything but viable.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people here that can't possibly know enough to justify being so negative towards SRT and/or the car, and so full of doom and gloom. As the saying goes, "Misery loves company", but I think it's time we stop piling on the band wagon and give SRT a whole lot more credit than we do. Those of us who have lots of experience behind the wheel of the Gen V know it's a stunning exotic supercar in every aspect of those definitions, and a few of us know it's as capable on the street as it is on the road course for track days. The SRT team would surely love for every enthusiast to purchase a Viper, as would Aston of the Vantage, or Ferrari of the F458, but this end of the automotive market is a niche at best, and while you can satisfy some enthusiasts with your best effort, your pool of prospective buyers is very small, and difficult to know what will trigger their purchase.

So are we going to be a group that seeks to have the advantages that a positive attitude provides, one that encourages and welcomes participation of both owners and the manufacturer, or do we want to go down the road that leaves us isolated and uniformed due to the views of a vocal and negative minority that typically aren't fully acquainted with the car, have no knowledge of the reasons for the manufacturer's decisions, or are simply trolling?

05Commemorative · Jul 22, 2014

Good post Bruce. I will say it is a very interesting observation from those that own the car are extremely positive about it. Those that don't and really don't have any experience with it have a differing view. It is quite surprising as you would think those without experience would be seeking council from those that do.

I for one am extremely impressed for what SRT produced and glad it was not a car built for posers, but instead for people to drive and enjoy for years to come. The more you drive it, the more I appreciate it.

Bruce H. said:
I had the pleasure of spending considerable time with a number of SRT/Dodge's senior management as their guest at the Tudor Race the weekend before last, and met another couple this past weekend at Homecoming. What a great bunch of passionate and knowledgeable enthusiasts, and I found them all candid and sincere when answering questions. As I listened to them I realized that they could address forum user criticisms and diffuse concerns that are constantly discussed here. When asked why they don't I learned that in some cases they had in the past, not necessarily under their own names, and it was clear from some that it was the attitudes of some (or many) members that had discouraged them from doing so.

Let me ask you these questions...

-Do you really think that SRT is the only one to give Motor Trend or other magazines a mule or test car that had some difficiencies from previous testing that obviously were not representative of what customers would receive? Do you think the rags would generally give the manufacturer a chance to provide a proper test sample...or would they condemn the car when they knew an individual(s) had screwed up the prep of the car? And would they really conduct the test with an obviously faulty car and rank it last knowing their test car was in no way representative of the model's production quality?

-How do you know that the 8.4 V10 can easily run 700 hp or more with a more aggressive factory tune and still meet durability and reliability requirements. Are you sure the existence of forged components in the engine really means it was designed and tested for forced-induction?

-While the Hellcat would certainly have been durability tested for use in the Challenger, would anyone here really know whether the Hellcat could survive use in the Viper under its testing procedures?

-Is it possible that there are a wide range of things we argue over and criticize that maybe we just don't have the inside scoop on?

-Is it possible that there really is a 2015 Viper planned, and an announcement would have been made if it wasn't? I asked them about A-Z but felt it completely unnecessary and insulting to ask them if there was going to be a 2015.

-When Ralph addressed sales missing an annual unit level they had thrown out once as simply being an estimated volume, and not being the volume that they needed for the car to be viable, is it possible he was being accurate? And is it possible that the car is maybe profitable, or profitable enough, at even existing levels? Afterall, Dodge recently made it their halo car...not something they'd do if it was anything but viable.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people here that can't possibly know enough to justify being so negative towards SRT and/or the car, and so full of doom and gloom. As the saying goes, "Misery loves company", but I think it's time we stop piling on the band wagon and give SRT a whole lot more credit than we do. Those of us who have lots of experience behind the wheel of the Gen V know it's a stunning exotic supercar in every aspect of those definitions, and a few of us know it's as capable on the street as it is on the road course for track days. The SRT team would surely love for every enthusiast to purchase a Viper, as would Aston of the Vantage, or Ferrari of the F458, but this end of the automotive market is a niche at best, and while you can satisfy some enthusiasts with your best effort, your pool of prospective buyers is very small, and difficult to know what will trigger their purchase.

So are we going to be a group that seeks to have the advantages that a positive attitude provides, one that encourages and welcomes participation of both owners and the manufacturer, or do we want to go down the road that leaves us isolated and uniformed due to the views of a vocal and negative minority that typically aren't fully acquainted with the car, and have no knowledge of the reasons for the manufacturer's decisions?

Paul Hawker · Jul 22, 2014

Agreed.

Hard to find any owners that do not believe that their Vipers are fantastic, high performance cars that provide an engaging driving experience with thrilling performance.

Seems, however, there are no shortage of people that take great glee in picking it apart.

sunsalem · Jul 22, 2014

Bruce H. said:
it was clear from some that it was the attitudes of some (or many) members that had discouraged them from doing so.

What is the old adage, "if you can't stand the heat?"

Do you really think that SRT is the only one to give Motor Trend or other magazines a mule or test car that had some difficiencies from previous testing that obviously were not representative of what customers would receive?

Not at all.

Do you think the rags would generally give the manufacturer a chance to provide a proper test sample...or would they condemn the car when they knew an individual(s) had screwed up the prep of the car? And would they really conduct the test with an obviously faulty car and rank it last knowing their test car was in no way representative of the model's production quality?

Do you REALLY think it is the responsibility of the Rags to make sure the manufacturer supplied them with the best example possible?

How do you know that the 8.4 V10 can easily run 700 hp or more with a more aggressive factory tune and still meet durability and reliability requirements.

Actually, don't know if the Dodge lump has the stomach for it.

However, look at what Ferrari can do with a 4.5L: 598hp/398lb.
That's right...a motor almost half the size.

Are you sure the existence of forged components in the engine really means it was designed and tested for forced-induction?

Because Ralph said so.

While the Hellcat would certainly have been durability tested for use in the Challenger, would anyone here really know whether the Hellcat could survive use in the Viper under its testing procedures?

Nope...but let's find out. :headbang:

Is it possible that there are a wide range of things we argue over and criticize that maybe we just don't have the inside scoop on?

Of course, and that's the beauty of the internet.

Is it possible that there really is a 2015 Viper planned, and an announcement would have been made if it wasn't?

Actually, no....bad news is always delayed (Business 101).

I asked them about A-Z but felt it completely unnecessary and insulting to ask them if there was going to be a 2015.

REALLY? :omg:

And is it possible that the car is maybe profitable, or profitable enough, at even existing levels? Afterall, Dodge recently made it their halo car...not something they'd do if it was anything but viable.

Not close.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people here that can't possibly know enough to justify being so negative towards SRT and/or the car, and so full of doom and gloom. As the saying goes, "Misery loves company", but I think it's time we stop piling on the band wagon and give SRT a whole lot more credit than we do. Those of us who have lots of experience behind the wheel of the Gen V know it's a stunning exotic supercar in every aspect of those definitions, and a few of us know it's as capable on the street as it is on the road course for track days. The SRT team would surely love for every enthusiast to purchase a Viper, as would Aston of the Vantage, or Ferrari of the F458, but this end of the automotive market is a niche at best, and while you can satisfy some enthusiasts with your best effort, your pool of prospective buyers is very small, and difficult to know what will trigger their purchase.

So are we going to be a group that seeks to have the advantages that a positive attitude provides, one that encourages and welcomes participation of both owners and the manufacturer, or do we want to go down the road that leaves us isolated and uniformed due to the views of a vocal and negative minority that typically aren't fully acquainted with the car, and have no knowledge of the reasons for the manufacturer's decisions?

Kumbaya?

Bruce H. · Jul 22, 2014

Bruce H. said:
So are we going to be a group that seeks to have the advantages that a positive attitude provides, one that encourages and welcomes participation of both owners and the manufacturer, or do we want to go down the road that leaves us isolated and uniformed due to the views of a vocal and negative minority that typically aren't fully acquainted with the car, have no knowledge of the reasons for the manufacturer's decisions, or are simply trolling?

And as always...Please don't feed the trolls by responding to their posts, and the "Ignore List" is the forums greatest tool when used.

Texas1 · Jul 22, 2014

I am extremely pleased with my Gen V & greatly enjoy the driving experience...Dodge/SRT built s an awesome vehicle!!!

Stealth · Jul 22, 2014

Good post.

I just took delivery of my Gen V and it is a fantastic car. It is a substantial step up from my Gen IV which was also a great car. The sum of the parts is indeed greater than the individual changes. I will post more about the differences soon.

SnakeBitten · Jul 22, 2014

Bruce H. said:
I had the pleasure of spending considerable time with a number of SRT/Dodge's senior management as their guest at the Tudor Race the weekend before last, and met another couple this past weekend at Homecoming. What a great bunch of passionate and knowledgeable enthusiasts, and I found them all candid and sincere when answering questions. As I listened to them I realized that they could address forum user criticisms and diffuse concerns that are constantly discussed here. When asked why they don't I learned that in some cases they had in the past, not necessarily under their own names, and it was clear from some that it was the attitudes of some (or many) members that had discouraged them from doing so.

Let me ask you these questions...

-Do you really think that SRT is the only one to give Motor Trend or other magazines a mule or test car that had some difficiencies from previous testing that obviously were not representative of what customers would receive? Do you think the rags would generally give the manufacturer a chance to provide a proper test sample...or would they condemn the car when they knew an individual(s) had screwed up the prep of the car? And would they really conduct the test with an obviously faulty car and rank it last knowing their test car was in no way representative of the model's production quality?

-How do you know that the 8.4 V10 can easily run 700 hp or more with a more aggressive factory tune and still meet durability and reliability requirements. Are you sure the existence of forged components in the engine really means it was designed and tested for forced-induction?

-While the Hellcat would certainly have been durability tested for use in the Challenger, would anyone here really know whether the Hellcat could survive use in the Viper under its testing procedures?

-Is it possible that there are a wide range of things we argue over and criticize that maybe we just don't have the inside scoop on?

-Is it possible that there really is a 2015 Viper planned, and an announcement would have been made if it wasn't? I asked them about A-Z but felt it completely unnecessary and insulting to ask them if there was going to be a 2015.

-When Ralph addressed sales missing an annual unit level they had thrown out once as simply being an estimated volume, and not being the volume that they needed for the car to be viable, is it possible he was being accurate? And is it possible that the car is maybe profitable, or profitable enough, at even existing levels? Afterall, Dodge recently made it their halo car...not something they'd do if it was anything but viable.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people here that can't possibly know enough to justify being so negative towards SRT and/or the car, and so full of doom and gloom. As the saying goes, "Misery loves company", but I think it's time we stop piling on the band wagon and give SRT a whole lot more credit than we do. Those of us who have lots of experience behind the wheel of the Gen V know it's a stunning exotic supercar in every aspect of those definitions, and a few of us know it's as capable on the street as it is on the road course for track days. The SRT team would surely love for every enthusiast to purchase a Viper, as would Aston of the Vantage, or Ferrari of the F458, but this end of the automotive market is a niche at best, and while you can satisfy some enthusiasts with your best effort, your pool of prospective buyers is very small, and difficult to know what will trigger their purchase.

So are we going to be a group that seeks to have the advantages that a positive attitude provides, one that encourages and welcomes participation of both owners and the manufacturer, or do we want to go down the road that leaves us isolated and uniformed due to the views of a vocal and negative minority that typically aren't fully acquainted with the car, have no knowledge of the reasons for the manufacturer's decisions, or are simply trolling?

Bruce I respect what you are trying to accomplish with this post. But I guess I'll be dubbed the 2nd troll in this thread because I disagree with "some" or your questions:

"Do you really think that SRT is the only one to give Motor Trend or other magazines a mule or test car that had some difficiencies from previous testing that obviously were not representative of what customers would receive? Do you think the rags would generally give the manufacturer a chance to provide a proper test sample...or would they condemn the car when they knew an individual(s) had screwed up the prep of the car? And would they really conduct the test with an obviously faulty car and rank it last knowing their test car was in no way representative of the model's production quality?"

How does this excuse SRT? The Viper is your pride and joy, your halo car, the car that will bring validity, exposure, exitement and the companys image car. Whether another car company screwed up this badly or not does not imho excuse the total incompetance of what occured. Someone should have realized the car/cars were not up to par afterall it is representing not just its image but the entire company's image for the FIRST time. It is not the magazines fault. BTW I know Dodge did the same thing back with the Gen II GTS in sending it to C&D with three different tires on the car. It still whooped the competition though but did not do its best.

"Are you sure the existence of forged components in the engine really means it was designed and tested for forced-induction?"

Didnt Ralph himself say they made the car with forged internals with boost in mind because they know the owners like to add SC/Turbos? I think that is why many feel it was tested in some form with boost. It would not make sense for Ralph to say so if it that wasn't the case. It would seem a bit irresponsible to me.

"Is it possible that there are a wide range of things we argue over and criticize that maybe we just don't have the inside scoop on?"

Most definitely. I have been guitly of this in wanting DCT, CCB's etc and its viability with the Vipers package. Most of us on both sides of the fence have been guilty of this if we are honest with ourselves. Speculation is what forums can be about especially when there is not much information forthcoming.

"When Ralph addressed sales missing an annual unit level they had thrown out once as simply being an estimated volume, and not being the volume that they needed for the car to be viable, is it possible he was being accurate? And is it possible that the car is maybe profitable, or profitable enough, at even existing levels? Afterall, Dodge recently made it their halo car...not something they'd do if it was anything but viable."

Correct it is possible. However, you dont lose your position as president of a division if things are profitable and all is well. Even the brand itself folded which is proof things are not ok with the higher-ups accessment of the brand/management/profit imho.

"So are we going to be a group that seeks to have the advantages that a positive attitude provides, one that encourages and welcomes participation of both owners and the manufacturer, or do we want to go down the road that leaves us isolated and uniformed due to the views of a vocal and negative minority that typically aren't fully acquainted with the car, have no knowledge of the reasons for the manufacturer's decisions, or are simply trolling?"

Bruce what are the folks [previous owners, future owners] that are not happy with the direction of the car to do? Stay silent and leave the forum so that the few that are totally happy with it dont have to hear their opinions? Does SRT/Dodge only value the the opinion of those that like the car the way they intend to make it? I think if they left the Viper in the niche it was in many would not be expecting it to be more in line with Porsche tech with DCT etc. You can't mismanage the marketing of the car, aim it at a company like Porsche and expect it to woo tech fans with a few concessions to more modern technology. It will take a while for the public and even many of the Viper faithful to forget what happened overall with the G5 Viper imho. You just cant blame the public, magazines etc for "manufacturers decisions" that put their product behind the 8 ball. Its a great drivers car that is fast and look great but it was their responsibility to market that in a competant way.

All that being said there comes a time when collectively we have to let go of the past and see where things will go with the lessions learned. That is life. Perhaps now is that time to sit back and see what Dodge will do to the this icon in the near future. However, it will be hard to overcome some of that negativity both real and imagined but they definitely can do it. If i am to be ignored because of stating my opinion then so be it.

Jack B · Jul 22, 2014

Some of the responses prove your point. Personally, if if I did not like the new platform I would move on to what i thought was a better car. How can an"owner" or "enthusiest" possibly think their continual negative narrative helps. Are they so blinded by this hate that they don't realize it has hurt the brand they profess to love. How can prospective buyer come into this forum and leave with a good feeling, just a guess, but, could it be that those that point to slow sales, are part of the problem.

it does not matter to the the Nega5's, however, it would be easy to point to over 50 improvements, G5 versus the G4 and no i do not hate the G4, i was getting ready to buy a G4 when the 5 came out. Lastly, this is my ground hog day, why do the Nega5's keep repeating themselves. If a rational person does not like something, he comments once and does not make a fool of themselve's by repeating the identical **** multiple times.
.

Bruce H. said:
I had the pleasure of spending considerable time with a number of SRT/Dodge's senior management as their guest at the Tudor Race the weekend before last, and met another couple this past weekend at Homecoming. What a great bunch of passionate and knowledgeable enthusiasts, and I found them all candid and sincere when answering questions. As I listened to them I realized that they could address forum user criticisms and diffuse concerns that are constantly discussed here. When asked why they don't I learned that in some cases they had in the past, not necessarily under their own names, and it was clear from some that it was the attitudes of some (or many) members that had discouraged them from doing so.

Let me ask you these questions...

-Do you really think that SRT is the only one to give Motor Trend or other magazines a mule or test car that had some difficiencies from previous testing that obviously were not representative of what customers would receive? Do you think the rags would generally give the manufacturer a chance to provide a proper test sample...or would they condemn the car when they knew an individual(s) had screwed up the prep of the car? And would they really conduct the test with an obviously faulty car and rank it last knowing their test car was in no way representative of the model's production quality?

-How do you know that the 8.4 V10 can easily run 700 hp or more with a more aggressive factory tune and still meet durability and reliability requirements. Are you sure the existence of forged components in the engine really means it was designed and tested for forced-induction?

-While the Hellcat would certainly have been durability tested for use in the Challenger, would anyone here really know whether the Hellcat could survive use in the Viper under its testing procedures?

-Is it possible that there are a wide range of things we argue over and criticize that maybe we just don't have the inside scoop on?

-Is it possible that there really is a 2015 Viper planned, and an announcement would have been made if it wasn't? I asked them about A-Z but felt it completely unnecessary and insulting to ask them if there was going to be a 2015.

-When Ralph addressed sales missing an annual unit level they had thrown out once as simply being an estimated volume, and not being the volume that they needed for the car to be viable, is it possible he was being accurate? And is it possible that the car is maybe profitable, or profitable enough, at even existing levels? Afterall, Dodge recently made it their halo car...not something they'd do if it was anything but viable.

It seems to me that there are a lot of people here that can't possibly know enough to justify being so negative towards SRT and/or the car, and so full of doom and gloom. As the saying goes, "Misery loves company", but I think it's time we stop piling on the band wagon and give SRT a whole lot more credit than we do. Those of us who have lots of experience behind the wheel of the Gen V know it's a stunning exotic supercar in every aspect of those definitions, and a few of us know it's as capable on the street as it is on the road course for track days. The SRT team would surely love for every enthusiast to purchase a Viper, as would Aston of the Vantage, or Ferrari of the F458, but this end of the automotive market is a niche at best, and while you can satisfy some enthusiasts with your best effort, your pool of prospective buyers is very small, and difficult to know what will trigger their purchase.

So are we going to be a group that seeks to have the advantages that a positive attitude provides, one that encourages and welcomes participation of both owners and the manufacturer, or do we want to go down the road that leaves us isolated and uniformed due to the views of a vocal and negative minority that typically aren't fully acquainted with the car, have no knowledge of the reasons for the manufacturer's decisions, or are simply trolling?

ViperDC · Jul 22, 2014

I think it's clear that they are building 2015s, they even unveiled a new color at the Homecoming deal. After that, I hope we see a power bump and an ACR

Bruce H. · Jul 22, 2014

Thank you for your sharing your thoughts SnakeBitten, and others.

The questions posed were intended to have us question some of our assumptions rather than provide answers, or excuses for things gone wrong. We need to ask ourselves how important it is at this stage to assign blame, particularly when we surely don't have all the facts. The bottom line for me is that I can be sure that Dodge will be working hard to ensure the success of the Viper. Everyone was concerned with marketing a $100-160k car under the Dodge brand in the first place, and perhaps it was determined that slow sales could in part be explained by the difficulties in achieving SRT brand recognition. Perhaps rolling SRT into the Dodge brand was intended to further help establishish it as the high performance division, with the Viper giving it more credibility and a world class halo car, and the timing to do so chosen to coincide with the big launch of the Hellcat Challenger.

I would like to point out that Ralph obviously didn't lose his position as president of a division, replaced by someone else, he lost it when the SRT division was rolled into Dodge. He still holds very senior roles, and the respect of the Viper team, SRT Racing (which is becoming very successful), and Viper owners everywhere. It is yet to be determined whether these brand decisions will help or hurt the Viper, but it will surely help Dodge.

The purpose of this thread is to suggest that we need to promote a more positive attitude among forum members for our own benefit and those looking in who may be considering a purchas as Jack points out. We're all sure to get a lot more out of the forum as we enjoy our Vipers, or shop for one, and we just might be able to encourage the Viper team to engage with what should be their greatest supporters. I found it curious over the weekend as I met so many Viper owners at Homecoming how few actually use the forums. I'd expected to find that I'd recognized their user names, but instead found they didn't have one, or seldom log in. It makes me wonder how their views might differ from those represented on the various forums...but I have to say they were among the happiest Viper enthusiasts I have met so far.

PeerBlock · Jul 22, 2014

Like many of the mag reviews, the anti-viper whiners seem to be crying about the Gen 5 (or viper in general) being something that it's not and was never intended to be.

It's not Dodge's version of the Vette. Sure we can compare its performance to the Vette, and it's great that GM has made the C7 into a competitive vehicle that can hang with the Viper - but the Vette is not in the same class as the Viper. The philosophies behind both cars are quite different.
The "if the Viper isn't what I want, it's bad" mentality - a general sentiment that's highlighting the narcissism of people who believe that anything that steps out of the bounds of their narrow view is crap...and it's no surprise none of these people own a Gen 5.
The "wishlisters" who keep making posts like "It looks good BUT...it needs at least 750 HP and a DCT." No, it doesn't NEED those things. The Viper is one of the few products built by a mainstream automaker on the basis that they'll decide what the car is and isn't rather than surrendering design decisions to the transient whims of some focus group or forum troll.

When you dissect the negative posts to their fundamentals you see that there is really nothing there. I don't blame SRT for being put off by negative comments, but I do think it would benefit them to hire a knowledgeable spokesperson with a thick skin who - officially or unofficially - participates in some of the discussions.

Paul Hawker said:
Agreed.

Hard to find any owners that do not believe that their Vipers are fantastic, high performance cars that provide an engaging driving experience with thrilling performance.

Seems, however, there are no shortage of people that take great glee in picking it apart.

Who cares? Let them say what they want. You won't find a Gen 5 owner thread saying anything bad about the car. I've had mine for over a year, which is more than enough time for the newness factor to subside, and I still think it's as great as the day I drove it home.

It's probably the most patriotic car you can buy. Hand-built in America in a totally bankrupt city during a time of great economic uncertainty...taking a big risk, following through on it, turning a vision into reality relatively limited resources against competitors that have virtually unlimited resources...it really is the culmination of what America is really all about in the form of the best-looking car ever made. They should include a mini US Constitution and Declaration of Independence with the thing.

DMan · Jul 22, 2014

Are people debating the existence of a 2015? If so, seems weird. They re-tooled the plant, we've seen the demonic red interior that's coming, the purple, I mean there are only signs of a 2015, who would question that.

I do blame marketing, it is their responsibility to best represent the car and they simply haven't don that, at all. Claiming others have screwed up is like arguing with a traffic cop that other people were speeding too, doesn't keep you from getting a ticket or being guilty. The only 'bashing' I'd ever do would be about marketing. The gen5 is so incredible in all aspects, it's a marketing dream to represent, and it's been pretty lousy. I got a flat this wk and the AAA guy said what a shame it is they don't make vipers anymore .. it's a funny thing.

To your main point though, I don't get why some people wax on and on with neg comments. I'm not talking about those who are hoping for things (um, like me with the vert), but bashing it in the face of the perf it puts out is not understandable. I post my disappointment in not having an SRT vert, but I don't piss on SRT about missing the market & how dumb they are for it, I assume if they could put one out, they would, just not in the cards now, still disappointing but not a bashing point.

sunsalem · Jul 22, 2014

SnakeBitten said:
Bruce I respect what you are trying to accomplish with this post. But I guess I'll be dubbed the 2nd troll in this thread because I disagree with "some" or your questions:

"Do you really think that SRT is the only one to give Motor Trend or other magazines a mule or test car that had some difficiencies from previous testing that obviously were not representative of what customers would receive? Do you think the rags would generally give the manufacturer a chance to provide a proper test sample...or would they condemn the car when they knew an individual(s) had screwed up the prep of the car? And would they really conduct the test with an obviously faulty car and rank it last knowing their test car was in no way representative of the model's production quality?"

How does this excuse SRT? The Viper is your pride and joy, your halo car, the car that will bring validity, exposure, exitement and the companys image car. Whether another car company screwed up this badly or not does not imho excuse the total incompetance of what occured. Someone should have realized the car/cars were not up to par afterall it is representing not just its image but the entire company's image for the FIRST time. It is not the magazines fault. BTW I know Dodge did the same thing back with the Gen II GTS in sending it to C&D with three different tires on the car. It still whooped the competition though but did not do its best.

"Are you sure the existence of forged components in the engine really means it was designed and tested for forced-induction?"

Didnt Ralph himself say they made the car with forged internals with boost in mind because they know the owners like to add SC/Turbos? I think that is why many feel it was tested in some form with boost. It would not make sense for Ralph to say so if it that wasn't the case. It would seem a bit irresponsible to me.

"Is it possible that there are a wide range of things we argue over and criticize that maybe we just don't have the inside scoop on?"

Most definitely. I have been guitly of this in wanting DCT, CCB's etc and its viability with the Vipers package. Most of us on both sides of the fence have been guilty of this if we are honest with ourselves. Speculation is what forums can be about especially when there is not much information forthcoming.

"When Ralph addressed sales missing an annual unit level they had thrown out once as simply being an estimated volume, and not being the volume that they needed for the car to be viable, is it possible he was being accurate? And is it possible that the car is maybe profitable, or profitable enough, at even existing levels? Afterall, Dodge recently made it their halo car...not something they'd do if it was anything but viable."

Correct it is possible. However, you dont lose your position as president of a division if things are profitable and all is well. Even the brand itself folded which is proof things are not ok with the higher-ups accessment of the brand/management/profit imho.

"So are we going to be a group that seeks to have the advantages that a positive attitude provides, one that encourages and welcomes participation of both owners and the manufacturer, or do we want to go down the road that leaves us isolated and uniformed due to the views of a vocal and negative minority that typically aren't fully acquainted with the car, have no knowledge of the reasons for the manufacturer's decisions, or are simply trolling?"

Bruce what are the folks [previous owners, future owners] that are not happy with the direction of the car to do? Stay silent and leave the forum so that the few that are totally happy with it dont have to hear their opinions? Does SRT/Dodge only value the the opinion of those that like the car the way they intend to make it? I think if they left the Viper in the niche it was in many would not be expecting it to be more in line with Porsche tech with DCT etc. You can't mismanage the marketing of the car, aim it at a company like Porsche and expect it to woo tech fans with a few concessions to more modern technology. It will take a while for the public and even many of the Viper faithful to forget what happened overall with the G5 Viper imho. You just cant blame the public, magazines etc for "manufacturers decisions" that put their product behind the 8 ball. Its a great drivers car that is fast and look great but it was their responsibility to market that in a competant way.

All that being said there comes a time when collectively we have to let go of the past and see where things will go with the lessions learned. That is life. Perhaps now is that time to sit back and see what Dodge will do to the this icon in the near future. However, it will be hard to overcome some of that negativity both real and imagined but they definitely can do it. If i am to be ignored because of stating my opinion then so be it.

Thank you for saying it more elegantly than I.

SnakeBitten · Jul 22, 2014

Jack B said:
Some of the responses prove your point. Personally, if if I did not like the new platform I would move on to what i thought was a better car. How can an"owner" or "enthusiest" possibly think their continual negative narrative helps. Are they so blinded by this hate that they don't realize it has hurt the brand they profess to love. How can prospective buyer come into this forum and leave with a good feeling, just a guess, but, could it be that those that point to slow sales, are part of the problem.

it does not matter to the the Nega5's, however, it would be easy to point to over 50 improvements, G5 versus the G4 and no i do not hate the G4, i was getting ready to buy a G4 when the 5 came out. Lastly, this is my ground hog day, why do the Nega5's keep repeating themselves. If a rational person does not like something, he comments once and does not make a fool of themselve's by repeating the identical **** multiple times.
.

Yet here you are repeating the same thing I've seen you post over and over again once someone does not agree with you. Name calling etc. This is what happens on forums its not new. I won't go further since it would be negative. Just note that I have not attacked an owner with names etc just stated my opinion on a car since questions were asked on an open forum. Maybe if some dont want to hear "negative" feedback from us then maybe this should be posted in a premium section of the forum where only owners can post?

sunsalem said:
Thank you for saying it more elegantly than I.

No prob Sunsalem.

black mamba1 · Jul 22, 2014

By and large Viper owners are passionate people, passionate about sports cars and very passionate about the Viper. Sports car owners are usually very competitive people, and Viper owners tend to be very very competitive. I for one am not going to sugar coat anything because quite frankly when it comes to sports cars the only thing people really give a damn about is is how fast and how badass the car is and will it kick the competitions ass. You can keep your go-to-meeting apps and all the other European crap they stuck into the Gen V and just give me another 100 hp with an automatic option that shifts a hundred times faster than any human being can shift.

But you didn't do that. You gave me a euro Viper that has problems competing with an outmoded outgoing Chevy ZR1. And guess what? Nobody really wants the damn thing. You can't give the car away at $70,000. So don't come to me with excuses come to me with a badass car like you did with the Hellcat.

This is a grown mans game. And if you want me to pay $130,000 for your sports car then build me a badass sports car that kicks the competitions ass and stop making excuses.

pathoguy · Jul 22, 2014

had the pleasure of spending considerable time with a number of SRT/Dodge's senior management as their guest at the Tudor Race the weekend before last, and met another couple this past weekend at Homecoming.

Not every viper owner gets to do that. Not every viper owner wants to do that. You see things from inside the click, while I see things from outside. Perception is reality and we definitely see things from a different perspective.

Love the Gen V, drove it to work again today, would and do recommend it, especially with the steep discounts. It is tremendous value in the low $90s... but not into SRT/Dodge like you are. Call me troll #3 and keep adding to your Ignore list so that you don't have to read any dissenting views at all.

MoparMap · Jul 22, 2014

sunsalem said:
...However, look at what Ferrari can do with a 4.5L: 598hp/398lb.
That's right...a motor almost half the size.

Looks at the torque numbers and longevity of those engines though. They are high strung little things that used to be service nightmares. The reliability of those engines has come a long way, but they were still never built as 100,000+ miles cars. When you have to pull an engine out of the car every 30k miles for a full service and pay $10k for the work it's not worth it to me. The Viper engine is a tank. Some people have 200k on the clock and have never even cracked the engine open for a rebuild. I've seen people mocking the Viper's rather low power to displacement numbers, but to me that just means they'll almost never wear out. An Evo might have 200 hp/liter to a Viper's 60 hp/liter (back in the day at least), but once you put 14 pounds of boost into a Viper to match the Evo's forced induction you get 800-1000 hp kind of numbers and match the power per displacment, but at the potential cost of longevity.

Texas1 · Jul 22, 2014

Stealth said:
Good post.

I just took delivery of my Gen V and it is a fantastic car. It is a substantial step up from my Gen IV which was also a great car. The sum of the parts is indeed greater the individual changes. I will post more about the differences soon.

Congrats!!! Welcome to the BEST Viper ever!!! :2tu:

PeerBlock · Jul 22, 2014

black mamba1 said:
I for one am not going to sugar coat anything because quite frankly when it comes to sports cars the only thing people really give a damn about is is how fast and how badass the car is and will it kick the competitions ass.

With additional post you make, it's becoming more apparent that the Viper is not the car for you. If speed is all that matters to you, then buy a cheap car and drop a built engine in it. Whether or not you kick ass in whatever car you're in is more about you as a driver than the car itself.

The Viper is a take it or leave it car, it's not an everyman vehicle and it's definitely not something that Dodge built to cater to whiny trolls.

You can keep your go-to-meeting apps and all the other European crap they stuck into the Gen V and just give me another 100 hp with an automatic option that shifts a hundred times faster than any human being can shift.

Or you could learn how to stop shifting 100x slower than other people.

But you didn't do that. You gave me a euro Viper that has problems competing with an outmoded outgoing Chevy ZR1. And guess what? Nobody really wants the damn thing. You can't give the car away at $70,000. So don't come to me with excuses come to me with a badass car like you did with the Hellcat.

It beat the ZR1 with little more than a tire change, after "losing" by tenths of a second that could easily be attributed to the driver's mis-shift and worn tires.

The viper is definitely a $150K car. If you don't have $150k, $90k or $70K then go buy yourself a Vette, supercharge it with all the money you save, and see how many Vipers you can cause problems for.

GM is largest single welfare recipient in US history, and to this day owes taxpayers millions. Seems like they've gone from being domestic to european with their obvious support of socialism.

This is a grown mans game. And if you want me to pay $130,000 for your sports car then build me a badass sports car that kicks the competitions ass and stop making excuses.

A grown man would not be demanding that his ideal car come factory equipped with a ******.

emericr · Jul 22, 2014

Let me first answer your header subject, I would respectfully disagree. Most manufacturers will spend time on forums under fake names to see what people write and care about. If the staff at Dodge can't handle the heat, then they should not be on the Viper team... give me a break.
Forums are there for people to talk about whatever their sentiments are about the specific brand and cars the forum is about. Car manufacturers take with a grain of salt what is discussed on the forums and they can quickly decipher what is noise and what is a valid argument.
I have myself experienced the bashing of some members here and have been called names. I have a tough skin and could care less. Would I wish for some more civility yes so and I would tend to agree with you that it would go a long way toward making the Viper nation a bit more appealing to people like me that had considered buying a new Viper.
Bottom line though is that it is the manufacturer who has failed at attracting me and the forum with all its + and - was tremendous source of info and feedback from current owners.

PDCjonny · Jul 22, 2014

IMO the thought that comments or criticisms here on his this little website one quarter the size it used to be, is having any measurable effect on Gen V sales is laughably ridiculous.

05Commemorative · Jul 22, 2014

And yet, that is what surprises me by folks comments.

Those that are the most critical at pointing out flaws (yet have very little experience with the product), like to hide under the statement "I am trying to help" and then get very upset when the manufacturer does not do what they say. How is that possible if they feel nobody is listening. Too much of folks talking out of both sides of their mouths.

my goodness, buy one then tell us what it is missing. Go do an extended test drive and tell us what it needs. (no bs excuse around you can't get a test drive). Stop reading/quoting magazine articles from a year ago and go experience the product, then report back.

btw, good examples of that are folks that test drove and said not enough head room, or too cramped or maybe did not like the look up close. They all had real things to say with real experiences which add real value.

Somebody said it really well, it is not a car for everyone. It has a history and legacy. How can any prior or current owner say it lost its way? crazy as it just improved itself in every way. If you don't like the look, keep on shopping. Not enough power for you, keep looking. Who in their right mind says "I don't like the look of car X and keeps ranting about it." move on to something else, because as you say, nobody that matters is listening.

ViperJon said:
IMO the thought that comments or criticisms here on his this little website one quarter the size it used to be, is having any measurable effect on Gen V sales is laughably ridiculous.

sunsalem · Jul 22, 2014

MoparMap said:
Looks at the torque numbers and longevity of those engines though. They are high strung little things that used to be service nightmares. The reliability of those engines has come a long way, but they were still never built as 100,000+ miles cars. When you have to pull an engine out of the car every 30k miles for a full service and pay $10k for the work it's not worth it to me. The Viper engine is a tank. Some people have 200k on the clock and have never even cracked the engine open for a rebuild. I've seen people mocking the Viper's rather low power to displacement numbers, but to me that just means they'll almost never wear out. An Evo might have 200 hp/liter to a Viper's 60 hp/liter (back in the day at least), but once you put 14 pounds of boost into a Viper to match the Evo's forced induction you get 800-1000 hp kind of numbers and match the power per displacment, but at the potential cost of longevity.

You have a point.
Frankly, I don't know what the service intervals are on Ferraris these days (other than much longer than before).

I also agree the Viper V10 is a "tank" and can handle a lot of abuse.

PeerBlock said:
The Viper is a take it or leave it car, it's not an everyman vehicle and it's definitely not something that Dodge built to cater to whiny trolls.

Or you could learn how to stop shifting 100x slower than other people.

Seems like they've gone from being domestic to european with their obvious support of socialism.

A grown man would not be demanding that his ideal car come factory equipped with a ******.

Not much left to say after these comments.

05Commemorative said:
my goodness, buy one then tell us what it is missing.

Wait, what?
I am supposed to drop 100k bucks "to see what it is missing?"

Go do an extended test drive and tell us what it needs.

We have ALREADY said "what it needs,"....CCB, DCT, Vert., etc.

Some folks around here apparently believe their G5 purchase is under attack and feel a need to defend their decision.
FAR from it.
The G5 is the best Viper ever IMO.

The "complaints" are about what the Viper could be...what it would take to rescue the car from the abyss with future sales to those of us holding back.

doctorbob · Jul 22, 2014

Time to see what the future brings.

johniew398 · Jul 22, 2014

doctorbob said:
I would advise the forum staff to end this thread. The initial point was the sign in the viper cafe which most of us thought inappropriate. Now we are back to the same discussions that have been beaten to death.

Time to see what the future brings.

I think that is a different thread.

doctorbob · Jul 22, 2014

Yes, you are right.....changed it . I was thinking about another thread. Thanks. I still think we are beating a dead horse on what happened.

Jack B · Jul 22, 2014

I prefaced my post by saying it was a repeat. My only real rant is, how many times can this small group keep repeating themselves. The same **** just gets old. At least I know when I repeat a point.

SnakeBitten said:
Yet here you are repeating the same thing I've seen you post over and over again once someone does not agree with you. Name calling etc. This is what happens on forums its not new. I won't go further since it would be negative. Just note that I have not attacked an owner with names etc just stated my opinion on a car since questions were asked on an open forum. Maybe if some dont want to hear "negative" feedback from us then maybe this should be posted in a premium section of the forum where only owners can post?

No prob Sunsalem.

emericr · Jul 22, 2014

Maybe I am wrong but I think you are referring to me related to the excuse of not being able to get a test drive. If that is the case, I did get a test drive, reported to this forum my findings and what my issues were with the Viper. Some of you thought I did not have jewelry between my legs, how mature...
I am not a doomsday guy and repeatedly stated that I am Viper fan and based on the marketing that was done for the Gen V hoped that it would fit my needs. Unfortunately it did not and the market for the car is restricted to the ********* guys.
If Porsche can make a GT3RS for the ********* track rats and a 911TT as a DD, I do not understand why it can't be done with the Viper. Either SRT will listen, come up with a better GTS and grab new customers or they will continue to sell a few thousand vipers a year. If the ladder is an acceptable plan to Fiat, I don't condemn for it but I doubt it is a long term viable plan.
As a side note, most of the dealer base is still a total failure when it comes to customer service. My local dealership does not understand how to treat customers willing to spend 6 figures on a car.

05Commemorative said:
And yet, that is what surprises me by folks comments.

Those that are the most critical at pointing out flaws (yet have very little experience with the product), like to hide under the statement "I am trying to help" and then get very upset when the manufacturer does not do what they say. How is that possible if they feel nobody is listening. Too much of folks talking out of both sides of their mouths.

my goodness, buy one then tell us what it is missing. Go do an extended test drive and tell us what it needs. (no bs excuse around you can't get a test drive). Stop reading/quoting magazine articles from a year ago and go experience the product, then report back.

btw, good examples of that are folks that test drove and said not enough head room, or too cramped or maybe did not like the look up close. They all had real things to say with real experiences which add real value.

Somebody said it really well, it is not a car for everyone. It has a history and legacy. How can any prior or current owner say it lost its way? crazy as it just improved itself in every way. If you don't like the look, keep on shopping. Not enough power for you, keep looking. Who in their right mind says "I don't like the look of car X and keeps ranting about it." move on to something else, because as you say, nobody that matters is listening.

Bobpantax · Jul 22, 2014

Illi autem qui eam emo. Bene agere vel non possit, qui nihil non potest. Maxime negative in frontibus, ad excusandas excusationes sunt tegenda his duobus basic rerum. In lectus est, longe optimi generis, et ex suo commodo vehicula bibendum.

Gen V forum posting vitriol discourages SRT/Dodge participation

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