NEED EXPERTISE---SCT Tuner vs. PCM/ECM upgrade

Viper newbie here again---need your help so I'm not wasting money.

I have a 96 GTS--I plan on adding K&N CAI, Full Belanger exhaust, and some tunes/upgrades but I'm confused about the SCT Tuner and PCM Flash services. Theviperstore.com offers to upgrade/remap the PCM/ECM unit after you mail it to them and they send it back to you.

My question is....are these two things: SCT and PCM upgrade....are they essentially doing the same thing to the car or are they two completely different upgrades that would yield benefits and HP gains independently? I understand what they both do...but not sure if they cancel each other out.

My first assumption was that I could purchase both and get more HP and better performance from each....but do they basically do the same thing? Also...if they essentially ARE the same thing...which one should I go with? For theSCT tuner I was going to buy one of the used/unlocked models on ebay and then just purchase independent tunes from one of the various performance shops.

I would love to hear any and all feedback from anyone who has experience with these types of upgrades. I'm trying to surpass 600 HP with a N/a 96 GTS but not trying to break the bank.


Thanks in advance for your advice/suggestions.

SCT is the way to go so you can change between different tunes via flash controler and go back to stock tune at will.

For most tunes to be done properly it is best to add all of your modifications first, then do a couple baseline dyno pulls with a wideband O2 sensor that way you can email the tuner a file showing the air/fuel ratio so that he can tweak the tune to perfect it. Then upload the tune, do another dyno pull and see the results.

I recommended consulting with Roe, SPT, or ViperSpecialty for your tune.

Good thread as this is something I'm interested in down the line. What are the typical gains folks are seeing with minor bolt OBA (smooth tubes, headers, exhaust)?Thanks,Rick

Both are doing the same thing. Changing various parameters inside your PCM. With computer re-flashing, you are physically sending your computer to somebody with a list of mods for them to accurately (as much as possible) change your timing, fuel, dashpot parameters, timing retard tables and so on. The problem is, is that every viper is truly different. There are more factors that come into play when customizing a tune.

SCT is the tuning method of choice as we can build a base tune and have you upload it into your viper. Then you can head over to the dyne of your choice and we can remotely dial in all aspects of the tune remotely. Send programs back through email and have it uploaded into your car within minutes.

We do all types of engine combinations and always use SCT software unless a stand alone engine management is needed. I would strongly recommend going with whomever you feel the most comfortable with. No 2 tuners tune alike. We are extremely thorough with our customer service from beginning to end. If you want a good starting point and somebody to compare off of, please feel free to give me a call and start here

Todd
951-696-0500

Just loaded my SCT ProRacer sopftware to my new Surface Pro Tablet. Ready to go do some tuning since I also was able to load my PCMSCAN software to the same. Go with the SCT since you can reflash as many time as you want if you also get the PRORACER software w/SCT dongle matched to your software/PCM.

What software is used to datalog when using SCT?

Many use PCMSCAN and then modify the fuel and timing tables in the SCT software based on the needed corrections you get when viewing the PCMSCAN logs. You can use most ODB-II scan tools if they allow you to select and log the PIDs of interest. So its a two-step process. Datalog your OBD-II outputs and then go into SCT Pro Racer software and make the needed changes to the PCM data fields, save it to the SCT 9550, and then reflash your PCM via the ODB-II port under the dash.

Are almost all folks seeing gains from tuning when they have added simple bolt-ons like smooth tubes, headers, exhaust?

Thanks,

Rick

EllowViper said:

Many use PCMSCAN and then modify the fuel and timing tables in the SCT software based on the needed corrections you get when viewing the PCMSCAN logs. You can use most ODB-II scan tools if they allow you to select and log the PIDs of interest. So its a two-step process. Datalog your OBD-II outputs and then go into SCT Pro Racer software and make the needed changes to the PCM data fields, save it to the SCT 9550, and then reflash your PCM via the ODB-II port under the dash.

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I tune my my own 04 Cobra with the SCT Pro Racer software and datalogging is done using SCT livelink. Thought there may be something similar for Dodge.

I just literally flashed my car with the SCT device and a map I purchased from Roe Racing. I previously purchased the software and I have vast tuning experience and let me tell you, I couldnt make heads or tales out of the software. I have no intention of making my 02 Viper an experiment so I decided to just get a map from someone who knows what they are doing. It took about 5-10 minutes to upload and I couldnt be happier. I no longer have the annoying skip shift light, i turned off my rear 02's lowered the fan temps the car runs cooler now, and it smoothed out the "lurching" I would get at low RPMs.

The SCT is a better option than sending in your PCM cause you can use it as a code scanner also and also record data logs and send them to the tuner for updates. You can also flash your car back to stock if you ever sell it.

EllowViper said:

Just loaded my SCT ProRacer sopftware to my new Surface Pro Tablet. Ready to go do some tuning since I also was able to load my PCMSCAN software to the same. Go with the SCT since you can reflash as many time as you want if you also get the PRORACER software w/SCT dongle matched to your software/PCM.

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Good luck with that...I just sent my pro racer software back. It is VERY confusing, not straight forward and they provide ZERO support for the Viper platform and don't even include instructions for the viper software. And all the Viper tuners are secretive and will not provide any help what so ever...i have several years of tuning experience on some high end systems and could not figure out the SCT stuff with the support they dont provide.

rschiltz said:

Are almost all folks seeing gains from tuning when they have added simple bolt-ons like smooth tubes, headers, exhaust?

Thanks,

Rick

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I would say 25-35 whp at best.

DaJerseyViper said:

Good luck with that...I just sent my pro racer software back. It is VERY confusing, not straight forward and they provide ZERO support for the Viper platform and don't even include instructions for the viper software. And all the Viper tuners are secretive and will not provide any help what so ever...i have several years of tuning experience on some high end systems and could not figure out the SCT stuff with the support they dont provide.

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You are 100% correct! The definition files are basically non-existent and you basically have to do hours upon hours upon hours of research, trial and error, and attempting to use what you know or can extract from HP Tuner and AEM websites to get started. I must have flashed my PCM 100 times over the past three years messing with this and trying that...since you don't know exactly what you are altering. A journeyman like me can learn enough to be dangerous by just keeping at it, but I'd never tune anyone else's car with what I know. But at the end of the day, I was successful and proved able to tune a 16 PSI ROE with an aftermarket 2-BAR MAP, DEKA injectors, and other variables with the SCT. Easy and intuitive...H3LL NO!! ANd I know why the tuners keep all their SCT secrets...

EllowViper said:

You are 100% correct! The definition files are basically non-existent and you basically have to do hours upon hours upon hours of research, trial and error, and attempting to use what you know or can extract from HP Tuner and AEM websites to get started. I must have flashed my PCM 100 times over the past three years messing with this and trying that...since you don't know exactly what you are altering. A journeyman like me can learn enough to be dangerous by just keeping at it, but I'd never tune anyone else's car with what I know. But at the end of the day, I was successful and proved able to tune a 16 PSI ROE with an aftermarket 2-BAR MAP, DEKA injectors, and other variables with the SCT. Easy and intuitive...H3LL NO!! ANd I know why the tuners keep all their SCT secrets...

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Yup...And I used to have 500hp to 850ph 6 and 4 cylinders tuned within a day on the HKS, AEM and stock ECU software...This stuff is on a whole new level that I have A) no time for and B) no motivation to do....When I owned my own shop and dyno it would have been a different story, but Im so far removed from wanting to do that all over again..

That's the key....Time and Motivation...in which I have ample. Now if I would have had to put a value on all this 'learning' over the years, I'd be into the 10's of thousands of dollars for my tune. So scheduling a session with a reputable tuner for $500-$1000 for a great tune is really a cheap investment (all things considered)...LOL Live and learn. I "personally" haven't seen the HP Tuner solution for the GEN-V. I'd be interested if at some point it could be extensible to the GEN-II PCM. Some are tinkering with the MEGASQUIRT as well. So the 'tinkerers' are alive and well which is a good thing.

Tinkering is in my past for now. I had a 67 Camaro before this that was worked to the bone and miserable to drive..I put 300 miles on it in the 3 years I owned it...I just want something fun and reliable, which is why I bought my 02 Viper. I get i, bump the key and go..Heck I put more mileage on it on the drive home than I did on the Camaro the entire time..I dont want to over complicate my life at this point.

I sense a contradiction: Lots of people say SCT is the way to go, but it appears there is no documentation and the process is not intuitive and cryptic.

I have a 96 GTS w/cam, heads, headers, NOx that I don't think was ever tuned. I wish it was a stock engine w/ROE supercharger - I would just get his tune for that. Unfortunately that is not the case.

For me I'm going to wait another year before I try anything.

Tom and Vipers said:

I sense a contradiction: Lots of people say SCT is the way to go, but it appears there is no documentation and the process is not intuitive and cryptic.

I have a 96 GTS w/cam, heads, headers, NOx that I don't think was ever tuned. I wish it was a stock engine w/ROE supercharger - I would just get his tune for that. Unfortunately that is not the case.

For me I'm going to wait another year before I try anything.

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SCT is the way to go, however the software that they sell is hard to navigate via trial and error.. Your stuck paying for someone else to tune your car. The actual flashing process with the handheld is simple.