AEM Dyno Results - bone stock 2000 GTS 461ft-lbs.

Chris B

Viper Owner
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Posts
53
Reaction score
0
We just finished tuning the AEM on my bone stock 2000 Viper GTS with the AEM and I am very impressed with the results. When many of us think of standalones we think of them running on race cars that never see the street. Cars that often stumble to start and sometimes sputter on the track, with an idle that's not always consistent and are sometimes only tuned for WOT operation. What the AEM Engine Management System and our Service Department (TorqueFreaks) brings to the table is something utterly different.

The driveability on my car has improved dramatically. The car idles smooth as glass, no roughness. Part throttle feel has improved dramatically. The car no longer makes popping sounds on deceleration. Under full throttle operation, the power increased dramatically. It runs more like a refined sports-car with more power at every rpm.

The knock sensor location with our dual knock sensor kit worked perfectly with this car. We tuned the knock noise table, and set up safety measures to pull out timing and inject extra fuel in the case of any pre-ignition. We also verified this by advancing the timing until pre-ignition occured and verified timing retard and a corresponding fuel increase. This will be greatly beneficial for those running boosted applications where small amounts of knock can be catastrophic as well as those running alternative fuels and trying to maximize timing with them. It will also be greatly beneficial to those running Nitrous which I'll explain later.

The dual channel wide-band worked flawlessly. Now that we've tuned the fuel map, we turned O2 feedback on. This O2 feedback now monitors the A:F ratio at all times and anytime it varies from our settings, the computer automatically adjusts to achieve that A:F ratio. We use this particularly under cruise to optimize fuel economy, and under boost or WOT operation to ensure the A:F stays within a safe range.

You can datalog any engine parameter that you want. One item of importance we always pay particular attention to is Injector Duty Cycle. Surprisingly, this bone stock Viper was at 92% injector duty cycle when we made 461 ft-lbs. This is not a safe duty cycle to be at, and as we begin modifying this car we will need to address the injectors immediately.

The next image shows the before and after dyno results of this Viper. On the earlier pull with the stock ECU, we could audibly hear some knock and that is why we didn't do a full pull. On the later pull you can see that A:F was much safer and horsepower and torque were increased.

You must be registered for see images


Now, onto the datalogging capabilites I was talking about. As you can see in the following diagram, the AEM will datalog anything you want to see. On this particular graph we datalogged, knock, which shows both knock raw values "Knock#1 Raw" and "Knock#2 Raw". The computer then overlays our knock noise table which is what we set up to say "hey, anything above this voltage at this rpm is knock", those inturn show up as real knock shown by "Knock#1" and "Knock#2". You can also see the results of both O2 sensors on this graph. When you are looking at the laptop, you simply click anywhere on the screen and it will show you the corresponding values in the upper right anywhere along your plot.

You must be registered for see images


Our next step possibly later this evening is to tune this car for race fuel and maximize the power potential without any other modifications.

If you have any questions about how this system works, I'll have our tuner from TorqueFreaks reply to all of your questions on this thread. You can also click www.horsepowerfreaks.com for kit pricing and information about the various options. Part way down the screen are the HorsepowerFreaks bundled kits which include everything you'll need based on your particular application.

Here's a video of one of the dyno pulls... aemviperondyno.wmv

Take care,
Chris.
 

utahviper

Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 21, 2001
Posts
602
Reaction score
0
Location
Utah
The results look good but the car seems way down on power. I don't know if I have ever seen a 2000 with that little power.

Keep up the good work. I am especially interested in the progress of the knock sensor and related items.

Can you please tell me what you set you a/f at wot and cruising.

Thanks
 

2002_Viper_GTS_ACR

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 9, 2002
Posts
4,030
Reaction score
3
Location
Charlotte, North Carolina
TQ may have gone up, but 416hp isnt very impressive, as my stock 2002 pulled a 410 and 450tq with stock ecu and crappy cream puff motor and stock cream puff cam.

I do find it a bit ODD, that you guys say you can hear KNOCK on a completely STOCK motor with a STOCK computer. That just doesnt sound right. You have a major problem if that is happening. I know of no stock viper that exhibits knock from a stock computer and stock car, and is in sound mechanical condition.

I would have expected more out of this AEM unit. But I am sure its true colors shine on modified cars.
 

Sean McElderry

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 16, 2003
Posts
27
Reaction score
0
Location
Portland, Oregon
The results look good but the car seems way down on power. I don't know if I have ever seen a 2000 with that little power.

Keep up the good work. I am especially interested in the progress of the knock sensor and related items.

Can you please tell me what you set you a/f at wot and cruising.

Thanks

That's exactly what I was thinking when we first dyno'd this car. Why so little power? I don't know the history of this vehicle but I can say two things with certainty - it audibly knocked with the stock ECU and its AFR jumped all over the place from 10:1 to 15:1 under WOT. With the AEM we were able to eliminate both, so for our testing purposes, it was a win/win. Could more power have been made? Sure. And perhaps I'll post a higher dyno chart in a few days...but the goals of this exercise were to get the AEM running on a Viper, test our knock sensor kit, improve drivability, and increase HP/TQ over what the car was making before. There's definitely more tuning to be done and we'll keep you guys posted with the results.

2002_Viper_GTS_ACR, you're absolutely right, the AEM will truly shine on modified Vipers as it has on modified Supras, 3000GTs, Mustangs, DSMs, etc. When I go on tuning trips, it's quite common to increase HP on a turbo or supercharged car by 300-500hp. One of our customers in Rome started with a 390rwhp car that we took to 931rwhp with the AEM through tuning. I'm heading back there in April to try for 1200rwhp...wish me luck :) The AEM's capabilities are absolutely amazing and as Viper owners, you get the cream of the crop AEM with a billet, weatherproof enclosure; dual wideband O2 sensors; the ability to use magnetic or hall effect cam and crank pickups; and 4 analog inputs which can be configured to use RTD sensors, thermistor sensors, or your standard 0-5V sensors.

utahviper, every engine is different in how they perform at different AFRs. For example, S2000 engines as with most Honda engines, will cruise along comfortably at 17:1-18:1 AFR. My Civic cruises at 22:1 if you can believe that :) The Viper motor is very similar to a Supra turbo motor, actually. They will cruise all day long at 15:1. Bring them into the 16s and you can pull it off with careful tuning, but upper 16s and higher will inevitably results in a decrease in power and the familiar popping sounds. At WOT, target 12.x:1 for a stock Viper motor.

If you guys have any questions I can answer about the AEM or general tuning questions, feel free to ask here, give me a call at (503)-256-5600 x 2, or shoot me an email at [email protected]. I'm more than happy to answer any questions you might have. Take care!!
 

Moundir

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Posts
1,816
Reaction score
0
Location
Ny
How much and when will this system be released to the public?
 

Daniel Cragin/DC Performance Inc

Supporting Vendor
Supporting Vendor
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Posts
546
Reaction score
0
Location
Los Angeles, Ca
From our experience with the protoype system, the results have been consistant with what Chris is reporting. We have not
used the knock control as yet but hp and torque increases are the same on our 97 GTS. These guys are a good AEM tuner and this is real information.
 

Russ M

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 1, 2000
Posts
2,315
Reaction score
0
Location
LA, California
The numbers for a 2000 Viper stock are between 396-404 hp. So having this one pull 416 is very good for a stock viper, assuming that the dyno used is showing actual power.

I tend to agree that there was something wrong with that perticular car to begin with. Have you checked your fuel filter? Seems like alot of injector use for a stock car.
 

Sean McElderry

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 16, 2003
Posts
27
Reaction score
0
Location
Portland, Oregon
The numbers for a 2000 Viper stock are between 396-404 hp. So having this one pull 416 is very good for a stock viper, assuming that the dyno used is showing actual power.

I tend to agree that there was something wrong with that perticular car to begin with. Have you checked your fuel filter? Seems like alot of injector use for a stock car.

We use a Dynojet 248X (1800whp/1800wtq) with SAE correction. At 100 feet elevation, this is actually a negative correction factor :)

I think you might be right about the filter...you should have seen this car pull 15:1 AFR on the stock ECU under an earlier dyno pull - not exactly the safest thing in the world ;) We're definitely going to be doing a once over on the car and replace everything that needs replacing before we start taking it to higher HP levels.
 
OP
OP
C

Chris B

Viper Owner
Joined
Oct 13, 2003
Posts
53
Reaction score
0
I was definitely disappointed when we strapped the Viper down for the first time prior to the AEM install. The car did feel a big sluggish when I bought it from the prior owner and I could audibly hear pre-ignition doing pulls in the upper gears. I haven't confirmed this, but I believe the stock O2 sensors were to blame. They are no longer in the car, so that could account for some of the gain.

The purpose of this exercise was not to bring a stock Viper way up in power but to confirm this AEM box is ready to be sold, to build base-maps for our EMS kits, to develop and test our knock sensors kits and ultimately to begin the development of our twin turbo kit.

Where the AEM really shines is on boosted or nitrous motors. Stock cars don't always see an increase in power with the AEM because the factory computer knows exactly what's under the hood. It's when changes are made that deviate from these factory components where sizable gains can be made. In additions to simple gains in horsepower, you gain driveability, fuel economy and the most important factor to me is the reliability and safeguards that it provides to protect the motor from damage. The AEM computer turns a closed black box into an open, configurable, programmable, datalogging application

Take care,
Chris.
 

Russ M

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 1, 2000
Posts
2,315
Reaction score
0
Location
LA, California
Tony,

No more factory computer, so no more trouble codes. You can have the AEM unit use the check engine light as a shift lite. Or you can have it act as a factory check engine lite.
 

Sean McElderry

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 16, 2003
Posts
27
Reaction score
0
Location
Portland, Oregon
Tony,

No more factory computer, so no more trouble codes. You can have the AEM unit use the check engine light as a shift lite. Or you can have it act as a factory check engine lite.

On many of the turbo cars I tune, the owners request the check engine light to be one before the car is fully warm and ready to be boosted. But by far the most popular use of the check engine light on an AEM equipped car is to have it illuminate when the air fuel ratio is too rich or too lean. It's a very nice warning feature to have on high horsepower cars.
 

Go Fast For Life

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 25, 2003
Posts
374
Reaction score
0
Chris,

I want to applaud your effort! Way to go. No one else has been able to demonstrate the AEM computer on a Viper. Congratulations for being the first one!

I was in Portland on a business trip about a month ago and went past your shop. If I had known you were into Vipers I would have stopped in. (I thought you were just into ricers.)

Even though the test car you have may not make record amounts of power, what I look at is how much improvement you got over stock. 45HP and 45lbs-ft torque is a great improvement for just changing computers.

Anyway congratulations!
 

1TONY1

Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 19, 2001
Posts
5,661
Reaction score
0
Location
Dalton Ga. (Chatt. Tn.)
That reminds me of a question I had. I am guessing an AEM w/b gauge can be tapped onto one of the w/b sensors. I have the Oz diy w/b now and I have to have more than an on/off light to watch (as in using the ck engine light as a a/f warning)
 

Sean McElderry

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 16, 2003
Posts
27
Reaction score
0
Location
Portland, Oregon
That reminds me of a question I had. I am guessing an AEM w/b gauge can be tapped onto one of the w/b sensors. I have the Oz diy w/b now and I have to have more than an on/off light to watch (as in using the ck engine light as a a/f warning)

It's looking like the only way to get a gauge displaying your AFR is to run an additional wideband sensor with gauge. Since the Viper widebands that ship with the EMS are integrated into the ECU and there is no 0-5V output, there is no way to interface a gauge.
 

Sean McElderry

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 16, 2003
Posts
27
Reaction score
0
Location
Portland, Oregon
Chris,

I want to applaud your effort! Way to go. No one else has been able to demonstrate the AEM computer on a Viper. Congratulations for being the first one!

I was in Portland on a business trip about a month ago and went past your shop. If I had known you were into Vipers I would have stopped in. (I thought you were just into ricers.)

Even though the test car you have may not make record amounts of power, what I look at is how much improvement you got over stock. 45HP and 45lbs-ft torque is a great improvement for just changing computers.

Anyway congratulations!

Thanks! The next time you're in the area, stop on in. We always enjoy talking with other HP nuts like ourselves :)
 

DChan415

Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 24, 2003
Posts
255
Reaction score
0
Location
San Francisco, CA
Sean, wasn't AEM gonna start selling a digital dash to display engine parameters from the ecu? What was the name of that aftermarket company that already has one?
 

1TONY1

Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 19, 2001
Posts
5,661
Reaction score
0
Location
Dalton Ga. (Chatt. Tn.)
It's looking like the only way to get a gauge displaying your AFR is to run an additional wideband sensor with gauge. Since the Viper widebands that ship with the EMS are integrated into the ECU and there is no 0-5V output, there is no way to interface a gauge.

Oh, that sux. All this magic and we can't monitor w/b without watching a laptop :( Can the w/b screen (or anything) be monitored on a palm pilot ?
Can you confirm the gauge thing with AEM ? Maybe the gauge could take it's reading from the pcm via a few extra wires.....there is a way....they just have to make it work :) How to tune on the road without someone riding shotgun ?(besides data logging)

Please don't take my wants or thoughts as criticizm, just learning the ins and outs. thx
 

1TONY1

Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 19, 2001
Posts
5,661
Reaction score
0
Location
Dalton Ga. (Chatt. Tn.)
Tony,

No more factory computer, so no more trouble codes. You can have the AEM unit use the check engine light as a shift lite. Or you can have it act as a factory check engine lite.

Russ, how many w/bs are there :laugh: j/k

What I was wondering is: codes like charging system to low/high.....injector circuit problem.....TPS problem......etc. I figured we would lose all diagnostics, but if this is a true plug and play could the stock pcm be reinstalled to diagnose a problem ? I know some stuff like 02's and a few other sensors would not be there or changed and throw codes, but it could still diagnose others ????
 

Sean McElderry

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 16, 2003
Posts
27
Reaction score
0
Location
Portland, Oregon

Sean McElderry

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 16, 2003
Posts
27
Reaction score
0
Location
Portland, Oregon
Tony,

No more factory computer, so no more trouble codes. You can have the AEM unit use the check engine light as a shift lite. Or you can have it act as a factory check engine lite.

Russ, how many w/bs are there :laugh: j/k

What I was wondering is: codes like charging system to low/high.....injector circuit problem.....TPS problem......etc. I figured we would lose all diagnostics, but if this is a true plug and play could the stock pcm be reinstalled to diagnose a problem ? I know some stuff like 02's and a few other sensors would not be there or changed and throw codes, but it could still diagnose others ????

Yes, you can reinstall the factory computer to pull any trouble codes. We've tested this with our Viper already as we've had it running half of the time on the AEM and half of the time on the stock ECU for testing purposes.
 

MannyC

Enthusiast
Joined
May 30, 2003
Posts
1,341
Reaction score
0
Location
San Diego, California
Sean,

I'm interested in the AEM for the traction control feature as well as a few others. I have a DLM SC car that puts down 883 RWHP and am wondering what the AEM can do for a car such as mine to increase performance?

-M
 

Russ M

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 1, 2000
Posts
2,315
Reaction score
0
Location
LA, California
It's looking like the only way to get a gauge displaying your AFR is to run an additional wideband sensor with gauge. Since the Viper widebands that ship with the EMS are integrated into the ECU and there is no 0-5V output, there is no way to interface a gauge.

Oh, that sux. All this magic and we can't monitor w/b without watching a laptop :( Can the w/b screen (or anything) be monitored on a palm pilot ?
Can you confirm the gauge thing with AEM ? Maybe the gauge could take it's reading from the pcm via a few extra wires.....there is a way....they just have to make it work :) How to tune on the road without someone riding shotgun ?(besides data logging)

Please don't take my wants or thoughts as criticizm, just learning the ins and outs. thx

I am sure you could tie into the O2 wires and get a reading on the AEM guage, I will find out next time I talk with them.

Believe it or not the best way to tune the AEM unit alone is to do a datalog.
 

Russ M

Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 1, 2000
Posts
2,315
Reaction score
0
Location
LA, California
Talked to AEM some more about the unit today and found out some of the testing they had performed.

They had a box running while submered underwater for 2 hours to make sure the unit was totaly weather proof.
 

1TONY1

Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 19, 2001
Posts
5,661
Reaction score
0
Location
Dalton Ga. (Chatt. Tn.)

I am sure you could tie into the O2 wires and get a reading on the AEM guage, I will find out next time I talk with them.

Believe it or not the best way to tune the AEM unit alone is to do a datalog.

[/QUOTE]

Thanks, please ask them about this. After getting used to watching my w/b I have to have one in sight 100% of the time. I was hoping to use my Oz w/b as a portable unit when tuning customers cars.

A datalog won't help if you fry the motor before it's in "the ballpark" or something goes wrong. It will tell you that you fkd up, but then it's to late.

Also, I am assuming that different programs can be easily saved/downloaded from the lap top. I am somewhat spoiled by the vec2's ability to quickly change the tune.
Example: when I autocross I have 5 different cards with each pulling out more timing if needed based on traction issues.
 

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
153,184
Posts
1,681,830
Members
17,683
Latest member
Dsalameh
Top