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Another Crank Pulley / Harmonic Balancer Slip Instance

Discussion in 'RT/10 and GTS Discussions' started by STL RT/10, Jul 11, 2012.

  1. STL RT/10

    STL RT/10 Enthusiast

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    Finally completely diagnosed my issue (for those of you that saw my other thread). I was hoping that my belt just had a structural failure, but found that my harmonic balancer / crank pulley has begun to slip. It didn't come off nor did I even run it long enough with the issue to have it move forward at all. Working to pull it now, but wanted the latest thoughts on the Roe pin kit. Does everyone seem to still like it? Should I keep the stock damper / balancer? Car is NA, stock. I see the PowerForce Plus damper has a keyway, but it obviously wouldn't match up to the keyways made by the Roe kit. Only want to do this once, thanks.

    PS - Anyone near St. Louis with the Roe jig?
     
  2. chopperpilot

    chopperpilot Viper Owner

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    I used the Roe kit and was very impressed with the quality and how easy it was to do the job. I drilled the holes most of the way through the dampner while it was off the crank and then finished drilling the dampner and into the crank with an angle drill. The rubber in my dampner still looked good so I just cleaned and painted it before reinstalling.

    [​IMG]

    I had the timing chain cover off because I was changing the cam. I used the magnets to help trap the shavings.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2012
  3. STL RT/10

    STL RT/10 Enthusiast

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    Were you able to leave most of the front end in tact and still get clearance? No fan or radiator removal? Guessing taking the hood off would help the cause also.
     
  4. chopperpilot

    chopperpilot Viper Owner

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    I had the hood off but didn't remove the fan or radiator. I think I remember reading that someone did it with the hood on but hood off made it easy to reach.
     
  5. VIPER BAZ UK

    VIPER BAZ UK Enthusiast

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    Roe one here also...
     
  6. EllowViper

    EllowViper Viper Owner

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    I did mine with everything in place.
     
  7. STL RT/10

    STL RT/10 Enthusiast

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    Thanks all for the input. Guessing most kept the stock balancer? Especially with mine be NA and stock I think I'll be fine (only 7k miles also). Thanks again.

    Matt
     
  8. STL RT/10

    STL RT/10 Enthusiast

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    Got it apart today. Once I fully removed the center bolt, the balancer came right off, no puller required. I was certainly close to losing it altogether. The end of the crank and threads within seem fine. However, the bolt threads seem a little thin from vibrating as the bolt loosened. Anyone happen to know the Mopar P/N for that bolt? I'm going to replace it (and obviously use locktite) when I pin the balancer. Stock balancer looks fine. Thanks.

    Matt
     
  9. Camfab

    Camfab Enthusiast

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    If the dampner actually spun on the crankshaft nose, it's probably shot. Is the crank nose not damaged? It should be perfectly smooth. At the very least buy a new dampner, it should be a very tight press fit. The dampner and the crank must have an extremely tight press fit together. This is how the harmonics of the crankshaft are absorbed and effectively minimized by the dampner. Additionally if the two are loose and even if you pin it, it will eventually shear the pin and destroy the crank. Sorry but those pin kits are for hacks. If you use that kit and your dampner fails, what are you going to do? Try and match up the hole on a new dampner........good luck.
     
  10. speedracervr4

    speedracervr4 Enthusiast

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    How many failures of the pin kits have you heard about? It's not hard to match up two holes and drill a new dampner..unless you're a hack.
     
  11. plumcrazy

    plumcrazy Viper Owner

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    for $400 to buy a new ATI balancer, its not worth it, replace it and forget it before its a problem later.
     
  12. AZTVR

    AZTVR Enthusiast

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    I would be confused after these posts.

    When you are saying "it" is probably shot, do you mean the crankshaft or just the damper.

    Are you saying that the ATI is not worth $400? "for $400 to buy a new ATI balancer, its not worth it"

    I'm pretty sure that you guys are saying buy a new damper, and not saying that the crankshaft is toast by default. I have checked out my bolt tightness in the past; but it is really awkward to get to it to check full torque, so, I always read these loose damper posts with high interest.
     
  13. Garron

    Garron Viper Owner

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    Balancer is softer metal then the crank. You should of needed a puller to remove it. You need a new balancer, stock, performance or used it does not matter and make sure it is a snug fit when installing it.
     
  14. STL RT/10

    STL RT/10 Enthusiast

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    Thanks all for the input.

    I don't like the looks of my bolt threads, so I will be replacing it. Again, the threads inside the crank look a little worn, but generally OK. A new bolt and locktite will be in order.

    The outside surface of the crank is a little scarred from the balancer spinning on it, but not bad. I think it is fine.

    The inside of the balancer is certainly softer steel and took the beating in this instance. I will certainly be replacing it as well. For those of you that are ATI fans, I like the look of it, but it won't solve my main problem - no keyway / pins = goodbye balancer / crank pulley. I have the Roe pin kit on order already and plan to use it, but don't know if the general construction of the ATI unit will permit the drilling I'd need to do to it, judging from the photos I have seen of it. Any thoughts on the subject? I know I could just order a new stock balancer and drill as required. With the car being bone stock, I think I'd be fine. However, if the price delta is small and I can use my pin kit, I'd certainly consider the ATI. Roe also has a Powerforce unit - anyone have any experience with this one?

    Also, a new question - has anyone replaced the front main seal while performing this repair since it is "right there"? Please note that I have already replaced this seal several years ago and it only has around 2,500 miles on it (the seal, that is). It has never leaked. The slipping balancer has deposited a graphite oil looking residue on my timing cover (everyone who has had this problem likely saw the same on theirs), but I don't think any of this was from engine oil penetrating the front main seal. The seal is very inexpensive, but my concern is sliding it over the slightly scarred end of the crankshaft to get it back and into place. Would appreciate any comments on this as well.

    Thanks again.

    Matt
     
  15. Viper Scot

    Viper Scot Viper Owner

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    Sorry to hijack the thread slightly but how important is an uprated harmonic balancer on a boosted (SC) car?
     
  16. STL RT/10

    STL RT/10 Enthusiast

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    At least getting the balancer pinned / keyed is very important given the issues I have had with a naturally aspirated car. Many others have as well.

    My previous questions still stand for everyone...thoughts are appreciated. Thanks.
     
  17. subyguy

    subyguy Enthusiast

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    anyone have any feedback on the ROE damper itself. Wondering if i should just get an OEM? im talking about the powerForce plus p/n 9001. cant find any info from people who have actually used it
     
  18. Camfab

    Camfab Enthusiast

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    To answer your question, yes I have heard of pin kits failing. I have no data on Viper pin kits, however I have heard of non Viper applications failing. The right way to do the job is with a keyway, this is why dampners like the ATI unit come with a keyway. I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

    As a note to the originator of this thread. Any damage on the surface of the crank is not acceptable, if your worried about the seal failing as it goes over the end of damaged snout your in trouble. A damaged snout coupled with worn internal threads on the crank sounds like a horrible end to this thread. Fix the damage before proceeding.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2012
  19. Fatboy 18

    Fatboy 18 Viper Owner

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    Can you take some close up pics of the crank end so we can see how good or bad it is :) Trouble with these threads is they sometimes get a bit out of hand ;)
     
  20. plumcrazy

    plumcrazy Viper Owner

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    sorry about that. the ATI is well worth the 400 bucks, especially on boosted cars. and keying the crank is far superior to pinning.
     
  21. lxadeuce

    lxadeuce Viper Owner

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    how is keying the crank any different than pinning it? a key way is a slot in the crank for a key, pinning it puts one or 2 slots in the crank depending on how many you want to do and you put in a key. i fail to see how one is superior to the other if the balancer fits like it should.

    FYI, i got the roe kit and pinned mine. i had the balancer spin off while going down the road and it just ended up on the cross member below it. the balancer was destryed from spinning on the crank and there was minimal damage to the crank. I put on a used balancer and have had no issues in about that year and a half
     
  22. STL RT/10

    STL RT/10 Enthusiast

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    I have yet to have a chance to run / test it, but I installed a new bolt, new OEM balancer, new front seal and pinned the balancer using the Roe kit. It was interesting to find, but when I was cleaning out the threads in the crank, I found that the factory didn't run the tap all the way in and my bolt likely saw 250 ft-lbs. before it truly seated against the balancer. The scarring on the crank was minimal, but the inside of the pulley had .080" eaten off it and the inside seat that goes against the nose of the crank had .150" of material ground off with another .025" or so taken off the front of the balancer by the washer. .150" is the same as 1 groove on the pulley, so for those of you that have seen this entire post, that was the cause of my apparent misalignment. It is dead on now. New belt and red threadlocker on the new bolt. I think I should be fine now. Thanks all for the comments.

    Matt
     
  23. Camfab

    Camfab Enthusiast

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    Was the bolt holding your dampner the original one? It would be interesting to note if youv'e stumbled onto something here. I remember running my oem bolt into the crank and checking that clearance against the dampner. Perhaps there was a running change in production at some point that may be causing these issues. Possibly a longer bolt from a new supplier or a change in thread depth on the cranks. Great info and food for thought, always check all your spec's.
     
  24. STL RT/10

    STL RT/10 Enthusiast

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    The one I took out looked original and the one I replaced it with was obviously OE. Each measured the same. I am just a little suspicious of the threads in the crank as I did cut some new ones at the back when I was cleaning them up before the new installation.

    Matt
     

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