Bleeding Coolant troubles. What is the point of the fender coolant bottle?

[viperpaul]

Hi,

Today I have tried to bleed my coolant system and am having some issues. As it heats up the water gets pushed into the front bottle and stays there as it cools? I thought it worked on a push pull system that allowed water to enter front bottle as it expands and go back into the system as it cools not just raise the front bottle level? My temperature gauge just keeps on rising up to the red while sitting on tick over and on occasion if i blip the throttle a bit it lowers at an alarming rate ie from near red top to middle in seconds sometimes it doesn't. I have fitted a new thermostat and repaired the hole in the bottom of the front fender bottle. But not sure how the water would ever go from front bottle to pressure bottle in engine bay?
Does anyone think it could be a faulty pressure cap causing the overheat issues as can't bleed air out properly?
The temp gauge is yoyoing too much!

Any other input would be great. Thanks

 

[FrankBarba]

As my friend JonB says...I think the bottle is there for an over flow.
They year matters....What year is your ride?

 

[viperpaul]

Its a 97 Frank. I read somewhere that it works as a push/pull system hence why you need to have a minimum level of water in it. If it just pushed out into there why would anyone care about writing max and min marks on bottle? I think mine is pushing water in to there while I bleed it as there is lots of hot spots where air is maybe?
When stationary The temp gauge does sit steady for a while, then climbs up to near the red then fall back down in seconds, sits there for a while fans cut out...temp rises fans come in temp falls but the needle is moving through 50 degrees in a short time. Maybe once I have cleared air lock then it might still be like it. Then I look at water pump do you think?

 

[Sybil TF]

Are you packing the coolant as the car runs with the cap off? Was the car fine before you drained the system?

 

[AZTVR]

Like Frank asked, year does matter, so, let us know.
The very early Vipers had a unique burping procedure, I think; but I don't know it.

One problem that has been reported is a non-tight connection of the hose between the expansion tank and the overflow bottle. When the system cools, you want the system to **** coolant back from the overflow bottle, and not **** air in through a bad hose connection.

I have never had a problem with my 2002; but, I may have gone a little overboard when draining and refilling the system. I used a Lisle 24680 Spill-Free Funnel. I would also fill as much as I could from the heater hose first; but that may have been overkill. Then I filled from the funnel and started up the engine with the funnel in place keeping an eye on level as the thermostat opened and also as fluid expanded as it heated. I also burped the system by squeezing the top radiator hose with the funnel in place. Some others say all that is not necessary, it will self-burp after a few heat cool cycles. I just wanted it as good as possible to start out, having read these kind of threads previously.

 

[viperpaul]

Thanks very much for you response guys, I did mention it was a 97 year. I do not have a funnel, I have bought a new cap today and this is what im doing:-
This all started when I had a leak in the heater matrix and then also realised there was a hole in my front fender tank. I removed heater matrix block (Temporarly) and connected both ends to the heater valve in the engine bay and heat is turned to hot. I have filled system from top heater hose by valve as it seems the high point and filled the expansion tank. I have then watched as while warming up (and not even too long ie 1 minute from cold) it pushes fluid into the fender tank and then does it every now and again whilst it is running. There appears to be lots of bubbles coming through. The temp gauge climbs then thermostat opens so it drops and fans cut in but then starts to rise up to near the red. It then drops down quickly and stays there for 5 mins and then cycle repeats itself. Then after its cooled the expansion tank is always nearly empty and front fender bottle has all the water in that! I have sealed the ends of pipes to stop air leaks (I might have not done one end I will check that tomorrow) I have tried squeezing top hose. But it is up down yo yoing and I dare not drive it.

Could it be the water pump? Do they fail and if so what normally happens? If so how big a job is it to replace??

I do appreciate your help as I dont know anyone else who knows anything about these cars.

 

[viperpaul]

Should I try running it with the cap off and topping up with some hot water as it runs? but then it wont pressurise and will boil even more at a lower temp wont it?? It must need the higher pressure to stop boiling and circulate properly? I wondered if the climb and sudden fall is related to air pockets? Any thoughts?

 

[ViperJohn]

Based on what you are describing, it appears you simply have some air pockets that need to be worked out. There are other variables that could be involved, but it would require additional information. I know the 01 and some 02 had water pump impeller issues, so that should not be a problem on yours, unless the temp consistently shoots up.

Is the temperature spikes happening while the car is parked, while it is in motion, or both circumstances? If your overflow bottle was empty for a prolonged period, you probably have introduced quite a bit of air into the system. One trick I was taught was to fill the overflow bottle with a syringe. You remove the tube by the cap and use the syringe to squeeze the product into the overflow canister. After it is full, use the syringe to pull the coolant back up the tube. Pinch the tube to hold the coolant in place. Remove it from syringe and place it back on the ******. Use a plastic strap to secure it and prevent air from getting back into the system.

 

[AZTVR]

Thanks very much for you response guys, I did mention it was a 97 year.

Ooops, I missed that. So, none of the early Viper tricks needed. What you are doing "should" work, I think.

Should I try running it with the cap off and topping up with some hot water as it runs? but then it wont pressurise and will boil even more at a lower temp wont it?? It must need the higher pressure to stop boiling and circulate properly? I wondered if the climb and sudden fall is related to air pockets? Any thoughts?

The point of the funnel that I referred to is that it gets installed in place of the cap and it lets the expanding coolant expand into the funnel and be drawn back from the funnel so that you can add coolant immediately when it starts drawing it down. I think that if you just tried this with just the cap off, it would puke coolant on the ground while it heated up; before the thermostat opened. I thought that it was supposed to draw the fluid back from the oveflow bottle and you say that yours is not doing that. Perhaps because there is a leak, or perhaps because you have so much air in the system, it is air bound? You've reached my level of knowledge here, so, I will let others take over.

I just reread the following thread. Read through it, and check out post 18. (Viper Wizard is Chuck Tator, a respected Viper Tech)

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/601197-Removing-Air-out-of-coolant-system...Tator-Style!?

 

[viperpaul]

Grateful for your input guys. I have had the cap on whilst trying to bleed. My front bumper is off so I could repair front bottle so I can watch carefully. It has gone down in level a bit (1") this morning so must be pulling back some fluid. the odd thing is that once i fill the pressure tank up and replace cap and start car it doesn't take long to empty much of the contents of the header bottle through to the front one. But maybe it has still lots of air in. If I fill the 5/8ths hose that sits below the overflow one on pressure tank might that help?
I have a massive shiny aluminum front radiator fitted (dont think its std but not sure) and looks like it holds a lot of water and or air!!

 

[viperpaul]

To answer your question John it happens while driving and parked. Cruising along steady 50mph it can rise and fall straight back down or stay hot for some time before tumbling down in seconds.

 

[AZTVR]

I have a massive shiny aluminum front radiator fitted (dont think its std but not sure) and looks like it holds a lot of water and or air!!

Definitely not stock; but, it is a common attempt at improving the cooling in a Viper. The only other thing that I can think of for you to try is the procedure in the service manual of removing the cooling system bleed plug from thermo-stat housing while filling while cold. That lets air out there. I think that most people don't need to do this and don't do it for fear of damaging the housing or the plug. It may have never been removed since 1997, so, I would only do it as a last resort and would prefer that someone who works on Vipers often suggest it as a course of action also. I did have mine out and in more than once before I found that I didn't need to do it; but, my car was only 5 years old the first time.

Where are you located? Maybe we can suggest a Viper tech nearby?

 

[ViperJohn]

Another trick is to fill the system from the heater hose.

 

[Sybil TF]

I'll ask again, was it cooling fine before or are you flushing because of overheating problems? Water pump impeller fins may be made of plastic and break from what I hear.

It took 3 times of running my car with the fill cap off as car reached operating temp and filling it until it won't take anymore coolant. You put the cap back on and let it pressurize system for a few minutes. Shut off car and remove cap slowly after it has cooled a few minutes or use a rag and gloves to not get burned, as you remove the cap you will hear system **** coolant from the overflow bottle if system is low and air will be released from the fill cap

Make sure you keep overflow bottle full while doing this so you don't **** air back in the system an have to start over. I also cheated and used an "airlift" tool but did not when flushing the system with distilled water experimenting with the Viper cooling system seeing how hard it is to burp.

If you can't get this to burp after 3 or 4 times of this process you probably have a problem in the system like a failing water pump, clogged radiator, stuck t-stat etc.

Notes from my man-slave...

 

[Eco-Friendly]

I did a drain and fill on my 02 and had a problem with it overheating and major temp gauge fluctuation.I tried squeezing the upper rad hose to get some air out but still had overheat problem. I let the engine cool down and removed the bleeder screw on the thermostat housing.
The level in the reservoir drop right away as the air left the engine.I topped up the reservoir with a tight fitting funnel installed in reservoir opening and put the bleeder plug back in when coolant started to come out of bleeder hole.I started up the engine.I let the rad fan cycle a few times and when the fan turned off I topped up the reservoir and closed the reservoir cap.I then topped up the overflow bottle and let engine cool down.When I checked the overflow bottle the next day it had gone down slightly.I started the car and the temp gauge responded normally through warm up.Car seems to be ok.This was done before I put the car away for the winter so I have not had it out on the road to see if it would be ok while driving. I think it will be fine.We will see soon. I hope this helps

 

[viperpaul]

Thanks guys, I will attempt to do this today (bleed via thermostat) and disconnect hose from thermostat and fill with water. It is a new thermostat replaced due to temprature fluctuations and once bumper removed the fender bottle had a hole in bottom so had been sucking in air. I had not noticed water coming out as it must have happened as driving.
I will report back on what I find re lack of water in the front radiator etc...
The last time I tried running it in the yard it did not open the thermostat!??? just overheated and cold rad top pipe which was strange.

 

[viperpaul]

I have been out and filled the radiator up via thermostat end of top hose. Some water was coming out the small top red hose that goes to the pressure bottle and a trickle from the thermostat housing, the top hose did not leak out water when i pulled it off and seemed to take a litre or two to fill. I also disconnected the heater hose near windshield and poured in there but that seemed ok and heats up when engine running.

I started car up and it sat ticking over for a few minutes at this point there is water coming out of the front fender bottle ( It is full up so overflows) then after another couple of minute of slowly rising the temperature gauge started to rise quicker and continued up to the red area. I checked the top rad hose and its cold. Shut the hood and waited for heat soak and still it is cold. I do know it has heated up in previous attempts but not the last couple??

I am yet to attempt bleeding from the thermostat housing as a bit scared of thread.

Should I jack the car up at a certain point or buy/make a large gallon funnel for pressure tank? I still wonder if it needs pressure ion the system to work/pump properly?

Thanks for all your help

 

[MoparMap]

A few things of note. One, if you do take the fitting out of the thermostat housing, you might try putting some antiseize or something on it before reinstalling. Not sure what the bleeder ****** is made of, but if it's not aluminum it could have some galvanic action that could lock up the threads. The second point and potentially more worrisome, the symptoms you're describing sound very similar to problems I was having with a different car (non Viper) that had a bad head gasket. Is there any hint of smoke from the tailpipes? There wasn't on the car I was working on for some time until it got really bad, so I'm guessing the cats might have had something to do with that.

Does it puke coolant quickly or does it take several minutes for it to get hot? Combustion gases in the cooling system will easily make air pockets and make gauges act funny, not to mention the extra pressure will quickly empty overflow tanks. Just something to consider. If you remove the cap and start the car cold do you see any smoke/steam coming out before it's had time to get warm? Lots of bubbles in the tank could also be a symptom, but I'm not sure how they would compare to standard burping bubbles.

 

[viperpaul]

I pukes quite quickly from a freshly topped up pressure tank, but stops and is not a constant it does it then stops and then might do it again a minute later. When I let cool for a few minutes and open with a rag it pukes out quite a lot. Once cooled has around 3/4 to a half bottle of water left in pressure tank . I am starting to think it might be the headgasket, no more steam in exhaust that you would expect when so cold here and none when warm. But a mechanic said it would stay hot and not suddenly cool down and yoyo. He said it would just keep going up. I will get a sniff test done and if gaskets I will just have to book it in to be done. I just hope its a water pump or bleed issue but hey ** it is what it is. I did use 2 lots of radweld in it to try and stop the leak from heater matrix, maybe that has blocked something up (but no way this huge Ali rad! The bottom hose off the radiator is hard (soft rubber with a hard inner feel as I can not squeeze it, I am guessing it is an anti collapse pipe? I still wonder if water pump is working as it does not seem to even open the thermostat now when engine is showing near red!

 

[Sybil TF]

I still wonder if water pump is working as it does not seem to even open the thermostat now when engine is showing near red!

Replace them both. Sounds like the pump is toast.

 

[AZTVR]

Since you mention running Radweld stop leak in the system; let me ask if you have flushed the system since then ? Maybe something is clogged up now. Did you replace the thermostat before or after the Radweld? That would be a "pinch" point for material to clog at. Also, I can picture that some of those small pipes in the system and maybe at the water pump would be at risk of being clogged. Probably even the radiator. I suggest that you consider flushing the system as best you can, including removing the two block drain plugs. You might take the radiator out and have it flow checked. These are all kind of extensive things to suggest; but, they are just ideas that occur to me as a hobbyist mechanic. Here is an interesting thread on using stop leak: http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=194097

 

[MoparMap]

I pukes quite quickly from a freshly topped up pressure tank, but stops and is not a constant it does it then stops and then might do it again a minute later. When I let cool for a few minutes and open with a rag it pukes out quite a lot. Once cooled has around 3/4 to a half bottle of water left in pressure tank . I am starting to think it might be the headgasket, no more steam in exhaust that you would expect when so cold here and none when warm. But a mechanic said it would stay hot and not suddenly cool down and yoyo. He said it would just keep going up. I will get a sniff test done and if gaskets I will just have to book it in to be done. I just hope its a water pump or bleed issue but hey ** it is what it is. I did use 2 lots of radweld in it to try and stop the leak from heater matrix, maybe that has blocked something up (but no way this huge Ali rad! The bottom hose off the radiator is hard (soft rubber with a hard inner feel as I can not squeeze it, I am guessing it is an anti collapse pipe? I still wonder if water pump is working as it does not seem to even open the thermostat now when engine is showing near red!

Just something to think about. I know I've tracked cooling systems issues a few times now and was getting frustrated because it didn't appear to be anything wrong with in the cooling system itself. Had a senior project in college with similar issues where it would puke water out of the tanks, even when it didn't seem that hot. They were convinced it couldn't be head gaskets because they were solid copper, but once they finally opened it up they had to eat their words. They're not super hard to check, so probably worth your time if nothing else.

 

[Sybil TF]

. I did use 2 lots of radweld in it to try and stop the leak from heater matrix, maybe that has blocked something up (

Oh, missed this. By heater matrix you mean heater core? Bad idea! If so that will have to be replaced. And if you still have a small leak it will **** air back in the system and you will never get this right.

 

[viperpaul]

Thanks again Mopar and AZ also Sybil. Heater matrix has been taken out and connected straight through heat valve under hood.
Right I have gone out there and started it again. Temp sat low for 5 mins and then climbed up and up to red in a quickish linear manner. I Shut down just before it reached the red. No steam out back, no coolant out front but no coolant got through thermostat to the top radiator hose! Even though I had disconnected this hose and filled it up best i could. I had the thermostat changed for a new one as was worried that it was gummed up with radweld (they had to remove supercharger). I have not removed drain plugs from block. The ali Rad is massive but bottom hose is hard is this a special non collapse hose as it feels like it may have a metal coil inside the rubber? Should I try to undo the square bolt on front of thermostat housing (I think I can see where it must be)?
Why is the thermostat not opening now when it did a couple of days ago and the fan comes on slow and not the double speed it did when rad was getting hot water.

I can do something called a sniff test on the water system to check for head gasket, is this right (I think it sniffs out emissions in water)

 

[Sybil TF]

Maybe your t-stat is just stuck closed?

 

[viperpaul]

maybe, but if no circulation of water as airlock or faulty pump then maybe it wont open?

 

[AZTVR]

Thanks again Mopar and AZ also Sybil. Heater matrix has been taken out and connected straight through heat valve under hood.
Right I have gone out there and started it again. Temp sat low for 5 mins and then climbed up and up to red in a quickish linear manner. I Shut down just before it reached the red. No steam out back, no coolant out front but no coolant got through thermostat to the top radiator hose! Even though I had disconnected this hose and filled it up best i could. I had the thermostat changed for a new one as was worried that it was gummed up with radweld (they had to remove supercharger). I have not removed drain plugs from block, dont know how to or where they are I should say. The ali Rad is massive but bottom hose is rock hard is this a special non collapse hose? Should I try to undo the square bolt on front of thermostat housing (I think I can see where it must be)?
Why is the thermostat not opening now when it did a couple of days ago and the fan comes on slow and not the double speed it did when rad was getting hot water.

I can do something called a sniff test on the water system to check for head gasket, is this right (I think it sniffs out emissions in water)

OK. Given the symptoms that are now appearing. Are you sure that it is overheating? Is the gauge reading correctly? Is the sender working correctly? Is the sender very hot? How cold is the ambient temperature? Seems like you are Canadian; so, it could be very cold ambient temperature. Could it be that the system is now full of water and no air, so it cools so well now that the thermostat hasn't opened yet before you shut it down? I haven't been in those kind of temperatures for decades. I would have thought that the thermostat would open at some point, no matter what ambient temperature. That leads me to believe the thermostat is stuck or cooling system clogged. I guess possibly water pump issue; but, I don't know think these symptoms match the "typical" water pump impeller issue (2001 mainly. Impeller spins on shaft under load, high RPM but pumps fine at idle) although, who knows what weird failure you could have. I do not know the circulatory system of a Viper well enough to suggest much else. Perhaps its time to email or call Chuck Tator. He has answered my emails in the past and I've talked to him on the phone once; but, hate to interrupt a guy running a business even if he seems like he is willing to help.

 

[ViperJohn]

I checked the top rad hose and its cold. Shut the hood and waited for heat soak and still it is cold. I do know it has heated up in previous attempts but not the last couple??

You might be air-locked. Next time you run the car, grab the top coolant line and squeeze it with both hands real hard and release. Keep doing this pumping motion. I have to do it on my Gen 2 after refilling coolant. It helps get rid of the air lock.

If this doesn't work. I would then focus my attention on the water pump.

 

[AZTVR]

The ali Rad is massive but bottom hose is hard is this a special non collapse hose as it feels like it may have a metal coil inside the rubber?

I think that is normal to have a spring in there. (A quick search seems to confirm.)

 

[Sybil TF]

I think that is normal to have a spring in there. (A quick search seems to confirm.)

Yes , my 96 GTS factory hose had a spring. Does the gauge go past the 3rd tick on the 190 if you let it run and does the fan come on?