Brake Fluid

[Janni]

One addition to Alan's direction - on the front calipers, after you bleed the inner and then the outer bleed screw, bleed the inner again (just a couple of pumps of the pedal...) as oftentimes some old stuff is still in the caliper and gets pushed over to the inside again. (Instructions per the Service Manual)

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Also, don't use Motul 600 on the street. It would just be a waste of money, no performance advantage, and you would need to change it much more frequently than other "lesser brake fluids."

 

[Vip-RT10]

I think Chuck is right.....
Chuck, are you treating my brakes well? LOL

 

[Janni]

Maybe I am missing something here, but at about $12 or less for 16 OZ, why is Motul a waste of money? If the DRY and WET boiling points of a fluid are superior to the DOT3 that comes in a Viper from CAAP, then what's to lose? The WET fluid (old) would be superior in all regards to the same age fluid with lower dry / wet BPs. (We don't use Motul by the way - we use Castrol SRF - so this is not a commercial for Motul

)

Granted, street cars do not see the abuse (sustained high temps) that track cars do, but track cars get their brakes bled after every event, so I would contend that street cars should have thier fluid bled every year - well within the life of Motul - and at $24 for a full flush, I think that's pretty good.

Have you ever seen some peoples' brake fluid? I mean if it looks like a cup of espresso, its time to bleed the dang thing. During the Americal Muscle Car show on Speedvision, I noticed the fluid reservoir on the 96/97 GTS (do not remember owners name, but don't think he's a webhead) was visibly DARK - and he says he takes the car on the track!!!!!

Maybe we are a little anal (a little?

) but I think brake fluid is cheap. And I still cannot figure out a downside to running DOT 4 (or higher - but not silicone..) on the street.. Except DOT 3 is about $4 a gallon....

My $.02

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

My point is that Motul is not only more expensive and not as readily available, but it turns brown much sooner and therefore would require more frequent changes. Are you sure Motul will last a year? Believe me I'm not a cheapo when it comes to my Vipers. I just don't think hi-pro brake fluid is needed on the street. Just my .02

This guy you saw on Speedvision, if he's tracking his daily driver Viper then I agree that the fluid should be Motul or better and changed frequently.

BTW I'm bringing kegs of Motul with me to VIR. I can fry brakes with the best of 'em.

Looking forward to meeting you at VIR Janni.

 

[GTS Dean]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck 98 RT/10:
I can fry brakes with the best of 'em.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yeah? So what color are your calipers?

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Top that!

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

Hey Dean, what is this caliper color issue? Are you trying to hinder RACE relations.

Double Entendre intended.

 

[dblankenbaker]

Dean,

Believe it or not, mine are darker (about to be replaced), and in fact the paint is starting flake off.

Dave
PS - I'll peel a letter off and mail it to you if you don't believe me.


<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by dblankenbaker on 07-18-2001 at 04:18 PM</font>

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

What's that you were saying Dean???

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[JonB]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janni:
...........If the DRY and WET boiling points of a fluid are superior to the DOT3 that comes in a Viper from CAAP, then what's to lose? ...........Have you ever seen some peoples' brake fluid? I mean if it looks like a cup of espresso, its time to bleed the dang thing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The easy way to remember, for ANY car, is "Bleed Farthest First" when measured from the master cylinder fluid reservoir. Gradually move closer, and do the closest bleeder last.

--Effective in late '97, CAAP began using a DOT-4 fluid as factory fill. This as a direct result of Viper Club Racing, and what T.V. saw at Putnam Park and other Viper Days events. "Racing Improves the Breed."

--"Seriously hygroscopic" fluids like Motul 600, esp in humid climates, and in rubber lines, can deteriorate at a faster rate than "lesser" DOT-4 (or DOT-3) fluids. So I kind of agree w/ Chuck, for those who are going to carelessly allow fluid to age and darken.... P.S. Isn't CASTROL SRF purplish when new? When teching, I find it harder to tell old SRF vs. new SRF.

---[Motul 600 ($12) is 585 deg. dry.] Wilwood's new EXP-600($20) is a good choice at 620 degrees dry! Also, w/ AP-600 at 595-deg. ($27) Boiling your brakes? PRICELESS !!!

 

[Ernie J]

Chuck, I've never seen a pair of stock rear calipers look
that bad. What kind of brake pads were you using?

 

[Janni]

OK, all brake fluid is hygroscopic - it absords water (with the notable exception of DOT 5 silicone which "suspends" water and is NOT recommended for racing as it traps water droplets and can boil the drops - ugly...) DOT classifies brake fluids based on meeting minimum DRY and WET boiling points. I think that only talking about dry BPs is a glaring omission. Brake fluid starts to deteriorate as soon as the container is opened, and continues to do so until "saturated" - i.e. WET.

While Motul 600 has a dry BP of 585 degrees F, it has a wet BP of 421. Pretty good. Others in this category include AP Racing Super 600. The Wilwood brake fluid sounds interesting, BUT the wet BP is conspicuously absent. Castrol SRF is SERIOUS brake fluid - the dry BP is 590, but the wet is 518!!!! The NASCAR guys bleed brakes like crazy - completely flushing after every weekend, so maybe the wet BP is not important to them. It should be important to others...

Castrol SRF is crystal clear - I would NOT use the "color coded" stuff either - although our fluid never gets old enough to turn anyway... But brake fluid should be CLEAR at first.

Good for CAAP for making the change to DOT 4 brake fluid - but anyone going to the track (especially on stock brakes) should consider a full flush with a higher temp fluid.

One last note - buy brake fluid in small containers because as soon as it is opened - its losing degrees of BP...

 

[JonB]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janni:
.......... I think that only talking about dry BPs is a glaring omission. Brake fluid starts to deteriorate as soon as the container is opened......<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AGREED! But the way racers [like you and Henry] frequently change it, it never reaches the WET minimum in your cars, nor does it ever come close. As to be near-irrelevant WET. The WET parameter is indeed for the careless driver who allows fluid to age........the higher WET point is important as you noted earlier, but the RATE at which high-rated fluids detiriorates is accelerated....they deteriorate faster.....No BROWN fluid is good, but fluids like Motul-600 are still BETTER, even at their WORST. Correct?

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ernie J:
Chuck, I've never seen a pair of stock rear calipers look
that bad. What kind of brake pads were you using?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

EBC Red.

 

[Tom and Vipers]

Ford Super DOT 4 is supposed to be very superior (to DOT 4) and at a reasonable price......

 

[ruckdr]

I found this on: http://www.fairdesigns.com/tpp/misc/brakes.html

"For only a little more cost and hassle, you can get the Ford High Performance DOT 3 Brake Fluid, from any Ford dealer's parts counter. Its about $4 a can (1/2 quart, I think), but the best part is that it comes in a METAL can... that is resealable and keeps moisture OUT. This means it stores well after its been opened. Most other brake fluid brands come in plastic bottles that can allow humidity to seep in and ruin the fluid over a short amount of time. The Ford fluid also has awesome wet and dry boiling points (550°F dry boiling point!), way better than the LMA and **** close to the high-end racing fluids. Many road racers use this stuff - its their standard."

The site has some good analysis of brake fluid.

 

[Tom and Vipers]

Don,

I think you mean the Super Dot 4 which comes in the metal can. Ford also sells Dot 3 and I don't think that is the "good" stuff.

 

[slaughterj]

'96 GTS (Wayne's Bad Viper)

So that's where Wayne's Viper went! Hey, I'd like to see that first-hand if I'm ever in the Pittsburgh area!

 

[ruckdr]

tomatper,
There may be a "SUPER Dot 4" which comes in a metal can; when I went there to inquire, they had the "High Performance DOT 3", part No. PM-1, which now comes in a plastic bottle, not the metal can, It does; however, have the Min. dry Boiling Point of 550 deg. I will look for their Super DOT 4.
Thanks for the lead.