Heffner Twin Turbo vs Supercharger

Real Hummer

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I purchased my 2001 RT10 2 years ago. Shortly after, I installed a Roe Super-charger and it was an excellant diy kit for the money. Although I was looking for more, I had Jason Heffner install his supercharger combo, and once again made exceptionally good power. I had just picked up my car from Jason Heffner after upgrading to his 510 twin turbo package, and I wish I had just taken this route from the start. Anyone considering a supercharger or turbos should definately take a serious look at the turbos first. I wasted a lot of money to finally get what I was looking for. There is absolutely no comparison between the two. My supercharger car was extremely loud; you had to yell at somebody on the passenger seat to hold a conversation, and besides all the dirty looks people gave you when passing them. The power curve with the turbos is way more useable for street use and the car is just a pleasure to drive now. I just drove 16 hours, 1200 miles (from Sarasote FL back to NJ). The fuel mileage greatly improved (although not a big concern). I spoke with a few people on the phone on the way home, and they couldn't even tell I was in the car. The car drives just like it did when it was stock with the only difference being when you push the "go" pedal, it GOES. The only complaint I have about Heffner's Performance is Jason wasn't willing to pay the speeding tickets I got on the way home. I was stopped once in Florida and twice in Georgia befor I had to control myself. luckily I wasnt caught when I was going 190mph but I had to see what it had.
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Bob Hummer
 
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That is all well and good.....but not everyone has that kind of $$$$. It is good advice, in general, for sure. I an sure MANY would love to have TT.....but sometimes its all about the benjamins. :)

Do you plan to post the details of your new setup?
 

Joseph Dell

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Congrats on the car!

I don't want to derail the conversation too much, but I gotta say, going right to 1000+rwhp is NOT a good idea in these cars. I've had mine for 6 years and I have a healthy respect for it. I learned to drive it stock. Then 560rwhp (SC), then 700rwhp, then 850rwhp, then 965rwhp and now somewhere over 1000rwhp (I hope. ask me in a week or two when i hit the dyno).

Point being that if you don't learn these cars, they will teach you a lesson... FAST. ROE SC is good practice. But I do NOT recommend that anyone jump into a TT... at least not a full boost one until they learn to drive.

JD
 
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Real Hummer

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JD, I had the 560 roe and the 865 Heffner supercharger and my opinion is the twin turbo is more forgiving to drive with the boost curve. Tony, I guess what I am saying is if you can hold out and save your money wait for the twin turbo. I thought Jason was nuts when he told me what a twin turbo car cost 1 year ago but I spent alot more geting there now.
Thanks
 

Shelby3

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Turbo's are **** but I like loud. What numbers are you putting down on pump gas? Congrats
 
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Real Hummer

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Shelby. I liked the car loud at times but it got old. pump gas is 915rwhp and 918 rwtq. Jason tells me 1100 on race gas.
Bob Hummer
 
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Awesome numbers! I guess that is the reason I NEVER want to drive/ride in a TT car. Don't think I could stop myself from spending more $$$ than the CFO has alloted!! :) Drive SAFE!
 

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I love the way that DLM SC sounds...nothing like it. Some it's power and others it maybe sound. I think a system like DLM can get you both!
 

Steve 00RT/10

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My supercharger car was extremely loud; you had to yell at somebody on the passenger seat to hold a conversation, and besides all the dirty looks people gave you when passing them.

I have never understood the intent, or purpose, of a quiet Viper. ;)

I also agree that dollars of this magnitude are a major factor for most Viper owners. Saving for a twin turbo set up is, realistically, probably not in the cards for the majority of people owning these cars. Spending considerably less for a Roe type set up achieves at least a good portion of the 'feel good rush' that comes with more power. I would venture a guess that even those with a twin turbo, and making BIG power, eventually yearn for more. It's a never ending cycle. The old 'Too much HP is never enough' adage is a very valid premise. Adding more power equates to more BIG money.

Steve
 

IEATVETS

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Another point besides the fact that TT's are big $$$ is if it is a street driven car and you have almost 1000 HP, where can you use all of that power? Seems kind of pointless to me to spend all of that money on a mod only to use it very rarely to it's fullest potential.
 

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YOU could have saved the money the first time if you didn't build it too slow or too loud. I don't consider my car loud or slow by any means and I surely don't have any issues with the drivability with the supercharger. Thanks for the tip on turbo chargers and congrats on your hp numbers, but I'll keep my DLM SUPERCHARGER :2tu:

-lou
 

Joseph Dell

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Since hte pricing discussion was hit on: a ROE or Paxton can be had installed for 7.5k-10k. What are the about-to-come-to-market DIY TT setups going for? probably 10-11k methinks. So a TT may be expensive today, but I don't think that tuners charging 28-30k+ for a TT setup will be keeping that pricing. Not except for the upper end (stage 3 or stage 4 or stage CHAD) models which include heads, cam, etc...

As a point of reference (and NOT comparing apples to apples), last Zone Rendevous, RSI was kind enough to donate a TT setup to each region for auction. Each sold at auction for between 14k and 18k. Granted, I don't think RSI is making a penny on a 14k setup, but still...

More fodder for discussion.

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You're right, JD....everything ALWAYS comes down in price, eventually. I swear that when Mark Cooper had one of the first SC packages, I figured there would NEVER be a day for me. :)

With regards to useable power on the street.....for ME, nailing the gas in 3rd and the tires breaking loose leaves me in giggles....so what I got is fine (I am EASILY amused). :) Now...the fact that the TT's can do that AND MORE....just makes me NOT want a ride!! LOL!!!
 

Torquemonster

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Joe is right about DIY kits making TT more affordable and closer to SC pricing. However I do not see the delux packages coming down in price. Parts alone for a top quality TT setup could easily top $14k not including any engine work, or exhaust after the turbo, or engine management.

Factor in how many you can do in a year, recovering development costs and on-going R & D etc - I see tuners making a living not a fortune even with the $30k prices.

Power can be gotten relatively cheaply, but there will always be a market for high quality packages that cost the big dollars.

To build a TT Viper that could pass for close to factory quality standards would come close to $100k by the time you add up engine rework, trans upgrade, rear end upgrade, half shafts, clutch, wheels/tires, TT system, engine management, exhaust, guages etc.

Yes you could do things a lot cheaper but not at top quality level - that is about what it takes for the good stuff and can go a lot higher...

using stock engines or stock engines with a simple piston upgrade will never ever constitute a top quality engine upgrade... not even adding good rods and having the crank offset ground.

a quality upgrade for an engine designed to operate at TWICE the factory intented power level would require top quality parts for that power level AND bluepinting and balancing. The parts most can agree on the principle (tho some argue if the factory parts are not breaking under 5000 miles why change?) - it is the blueprint standards and machining standards that are lacking all too often

I'd love to supply a blueprint list to some TT customers to take to their favourite tuners and then be a fly on the wall....

very few street Viper owners have a genuine blueprinted engine - whether turbo'd, sc'd or naturally aspirated. The road race boys are far more likely to understand the advantages of that and they know where they can get it done.

I have receieved a lot of stick for my opinions but I stand firm because I know that few get what they pay for and the standard of work is not even as high as what many good old fashioned Chevy boys expect when they start approaching 1.3hp per cube or more.

Customers do not know any better so as long as the car goes like snot and does not break within 5000 miles - they're happy... it is THIS I'd call the Viper tax - the gap between the quality level people THINK they get and what they actually get... saved by the fact the V10 is so well designed - it forgives the abuse and keeps on running.

When someone like Mitech Engines or LPE (who do things properly) goes out and breaks records - people think it is secret knowledge that does it.... but for the most part it is just that people like LPE do blueprint to a high standard. They do NOT simply bolt on good parts and then charge like it was a work of art to do it. The actual hard parts used are not that different from what many use.

They charge because they DID spend the time to test and measure, re-measure and machine to the finest tolerances, then assemble with great care. That time is repaid in 20,000 miles or 50,000 miles when other cars that spent less have long fallen off or are onto their 2nd or 3rd refresh...

Because of this - the golden rule still applies - but sometimes paying up front saves in the long run.
 
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I started to agree with you.....right up to the point where you implied (maybe I inferred...but either way I think you mis-stated) that the current tuners and their packages are somehow short changing their customers. You either said that....or you just insulted every Viper owner who has had work done on their car.

the gap between the quality level people THINK they get and what they actually get...

Personally, I think others will read it the same way and whatever credibility you had will take the hit.

NOT trying to give you MORE stick.....but if the shoe fits... :)
 

J DAWG

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I started to agree with you.....right up to the point where you implied (maybe I inferred...but either way I think you mis-stated) that the current tuners and their packages are somehow short changing their customers. You either said that....or you just insulted every Viper owner who has had work done on their car.

the gap between the quality level people THINK they get and what they actually get...

Personally, I think others will read it the same way and whatever credibility you had will take the hit.

NOT trying to give you MORE stick.....but if the shoe fits... :)


Tony


Have you seen what some tuners are putting out there for the coin they charge. Do most owners actually know what they are getting or are they just conserned with a "number" on the dyno. I would say the majority(as I did) assume things are done a certain way only to find out the hard way and at much time and expense that things were not done properly.

I think alot of people on here would be surprised to know what tuner cars end up in other tuners shops whatever the reason may be. Whether it is poor tuning, poor machining technique or whether the customer pushed the car to a limit that the car was not equipped to handle. I sure know the owners of these cars are surprised when they are looking at repairing a high dollar system with only a handful of miles on it.

I can understand what Torque is saying and unfortunately many have firsthand experience.............it seems there is someone new every week that only those in the loop hear about.



Regardless, Bob sorry about the hijack. Those are nice numbers on pump gas. What kind of boost can you run with only pump gas reliably? I didnt realize one could make over 900 rwhp on pump.


Take care
John
 

Paolo Castellano

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My supercharger car was extremely loud; you had to yell at somebody on the passenger seat to hold a conversation, and besides all the dirty looks people gave you when passing them.

I have never understood the intent, or purpose, of a quiet Viper. ;)

I also agree that dollars of this magnitude are a major factor for most Viper owners. Saving for a twin turbo set up is, realistically, probably not in the cards for the majority of people owning these cars. Spending considerably less for a Roe type set up achieves at least a good portion of the 'feel good rush' that comes with more power. I would venture a guess that even those with a twin turbo, and making BIG power, eventually yearn for more. It's a never ending cycle. The old 'Too much HP is never enough' adage is a very valid premise. Adding more power equates to more BIG money.

Steve

Firstly, I would like to agree wit Bob about the difference between how much harder a turbo car pulls cmpared to a blower car.

Congrats on your Heffner twin turbo!

Steve, I agree with you about wondering about the people wanting a quiet Viper!

I also agree with you about saving for a 30K twin turbo is not realistic for most people. 30K is a lot, but here is what you have to consider: there are quite a bit more parts to a turbo system than a blower. I recently helped a customer do an install and the parts filled up the entire rear seat area of my quad cab pickup truck and a good amount of the bed area as well!

The Roe is excellent for the initial portion of the feel-good rush!

I set out to make a DIY twin turbo system that would upgradeable from say 650 RWHP to 1400+ RWHP from the most basic to the most extravagant.

I am counting on the old 'Too much HP is never enough' adage to inspire/motivate regular guys who get into my entry level TT(for slightly more than the Roe blower making the 650 RWHP) to upgrade to the next level.

I have seen the Viper owners lose money changing to the next hottest thing for years now....... 35K for heads and cam, gave way to 35K DLM supercharger systems, then Roe blowers hit the market at the 8K price range but were/are not capable of making the power the intercooled centrifugal systems made without the aid of nitrous.

Everybody went crazy when Heffner came out with the 17K intercooled vortech JT trim supercharger systems. They were making 900+ RWHP along with the DLM Supercharger systems.

Then turbo systems came along and had quicker ET's and higher MPH at the track with similar peak dyno #'s due to the greater area under the curve.

So to put it into perspective, I have seen people spend good money going from the 35K heads/cam all the way to the 30-35K tuner installed footwell mounted T-03/T-04 hybrid twin turbo systems.

With my system, people can get my basic front mounted (entry level, full T-04 turbos), Intercooled Twin Turbo package making 650 RWHP at around 5 PSI.

My turbos are mounted up front and look stunning when you open the hood. The air filters are located behind the foglights pulling cool air. There is never any need to buy another tuner's system after this as it is fully upgradeable to a pair of 1250 HP each turbos. For those wanting more than 2500 HP, we can do some modifications and go even bigger! :eek: Unfortunately the block will not hold that much power anyway yet...

Anyway, my whole goal is for the average Viper guy to be able to get into an entry-level twin turbo system instead of losing money going from heads/cam to blowers to turbos.

I can get JGK to post some pictures of a recent installation I have done to show the changes I have made in the system since the last pictures I had posted.

In regards to Torquemonster's post, I can say from personal experience that he is right on the money as usual......I did not get what I thought I was getting on many levels. It was very sad to say the least and I have learned a valuable lesson. Anybody wanting to give me a hard time about mentioning this here will force me to give the details out again that I just want to leave behind.

The good thing though is that everybody is learning more and more every day and I am sure the competition result in higher quality standards which will benefit all the HP junkies out there.... The torque junkies too!

If anybody would like to contact me via cell phone, please feel free to call me @ 630-878-3907.
 

Torquemonster

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I started to agree with you.....right up to the point where you implied (maybe I inferred...but either way I think you mis-stated) that the current tuners and their packages are somehow short changing their customers. You either said that....or you just insulted every Viper owner who has had work done on their car.

the gap between the quality level people THINK they get and what they actually get...

Personally, I think others will read it the same way and whatever credibility you had will take the hit.

NOT trying to give you MORE stick.....but if the shoe fits... :)

well Tony - I'm not here to get credibility, I'm here because I like Vipers, to learn what I can, and to share what I can that might be helpful to someone.

I wasn't out to point the finger at any specific person(s) and will not be drawn into doing so. I did not say ALL tuners are hopeless nor did I mean to imply that. I'm talking about the GENERAL standard in the community including some high dollar engines.

Nor was I trying to insult Viper owners for being satisfied with what I consider to be in many cases - very ordinary work beneath the shiny skin surface.

Yes - the cosmetic presentation is often first class - no doubt! And lets face it - that is worth paying a premium for.

As for power levels - with 500 cubes it's pretty hard to be disappointed by simple bolts ons - including boost bolt ons - least until something breaks.

I am well aware that the vast percentage of the high performance industry is all about adding/replacing bits to what the factory gave us all and being happy with the results if it goes better. I'm not arguing with that. I'm just saying that if you are just paying for parts and a bit of labor to do a basic engine machine and assembly - fine.... but many are not. They are being charged a premium as though they are getting a fully blueprinted and balanced engine - and all they are getting is a basic rebuild but using good parts. Tell me what is fair about that?

IF you are happy - then to you it must have been good value.... great!

If everyone is happy and thinks they are getting state of art engines..... good on you, you can't argue with good end results.

when people who really DO KNOW how to build a great engine get in on the act with the V10 - there IS A DIFFERENCE and it is not magic. And it did not cost any more than what many have paid for inferior work.

There ARE a few great engine builders in the Viper community I do not doubt.

My comments above however are not delusional but you would have to know the difference between what is and what should be (for some of the prices charged) to even understand what was said. You do not have to believe it. It remains true.

peace Tony - my standards are expensive and not for everyone and I do not pretend they have to be for everyone. If it is any consolation - the same problems exist industry wide... where many who charge big money do not deliver the quality level that justifies the price. Until something goes wrong it's all a mute point tho isn't it?

personally - I feel the Viper deserves a higher average standard of engine machining and assembly by tuners generally... no offense to those whose engine work and machining is of a high standard already. Yes - many customers settle for a lot less than what they could have for the same money if they knew better... it's true for all of us in some area of life. Pointing it out is to simply help raise the bar - that is what it is all about Tony.... raising the bar so the whole community benefits in the end...
 

GaryA

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Back on topic...

Congratulations Bob! Not too many people would make that 1200+ mile trip!! I'm taking the same route as you (i.e., out with the SC, in with the TT). I've taken a ride in both SC and TT cars and the difference is amazing. Ever since I took my first ride in SalP's car, I knew a twin turbo was in my future.
 

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Bob, those numbers on pump gas are just amazing! :nana: With those numbers it is hard to justify putting the race gas in because you tires will not be able to handle the power. I would imagine in this weather it is virtually undrivable due to the power and the cold.

The real question is when does a simple ROE guy, like me, get a ride in this beast. :p It might not be good for my wallet but I would love to know what that much RWHP feels like. :2tu:
 

GARY J

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I prefer quiet. You can't get the car quiet enough for me. IMO, it is much more impressive to see a quiet car kicking ass. Some cars sound good loud, but I don't think a viper is one of them.

You can put 1000+rw to the ground on the street, BTW.

We can all remember when a DLM Stage 3.5+++ was $50k. I remember speaking to Scott P at the Nopi nationals back in 01 I think it was. That year his car put down 840rwhp with an extra cell full of race gas. How about the days of $50k all motor packages from LPE for 700 hp? I think the TT packages are pretty reasonable these days considering how far they have come. We should all be happy that there are so many choices nowadays.

Bob, congrats on the build.
 

Paolo Castellano

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I prefer quiet. You can't get the car quiet enough for me. IMO, it is much more impressive to see a quiet car kicking ass. Some cars sound good loud, but I don't think a viper is one of them.

You can put 1000+rw to the ground on the street, BTW.

We can all remember when a DLM Stage 3.5+++ was $50k. I remember speaking to Scott P at the Nopi nationals back in 01 I think it was. That year his car put down 840rwhp with an extra cell full of race gas. How about the days of $50k all motor packages from LPE for 700 hp? I think the TT packages are pretty reasonable these days considering how far they have come. We should all be happy that there are so many choices nowadays.

Bob, congrats on the build.

Gary you are so right! I used to like them as loud as possible with the blower but quiet allows you to hear the turbos when they get into boost! That is quite a sound...... Like a pair of Jet engines with the right exhaust or a pair of muted jet engines through a fairly stock exhaust exiting the rear of the car!

I had forgotten about the Scott P. 50K car. Did that include any motor work or was that just the supercharger?

I thought the LPE NA packages were 38K. I remember John Lingenfelter quoting me 75K to build the motor and put on a pair of turbos. He said he would only warranty 800 RWHP though. It seemed like a lot of power back then, but we all know now that a fully built motor by LPE would easily handle 1200+ RWHP on the highway, like the way you run like a madman against those turbo Hayabusas!
 
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Real Hummer

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Thanks everyone. Aaron I have put the car away for the winter. look me up when it gets warm for a ride.
Bob Hummer
 

BlueGTS

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Thanks everyone. Aaron I have put the car away for the winter. look me up when it gets warm for a ride.
Bob Hummer

Bob, Sounds good my car has had STA-Bil in it for over a month and has not moved an inch so I know what you mean. Talk to you in the spring. :2tu:
 

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Bob - sorry for getting side tracked back there (someones post got me onto a hobby horse..) - it was not deliberate on your thread and it was rude of me not to congratulate you on your new upgrade!

Hope it is everything you wanted and gives you years of pleasure. They'er something else to drive for sure!
 

NOTV8

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Congrats on your TT. Can we have a pic of the engine bay?
:needpics:
 

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What makes this so much fun is that variety is the spice of life everyone likes different things !
As a guy who drag raced turbo and turbo nitrous bikes i will simply say this . Cars, bikes, it doesnt matter on the street ,there is nothing faster on wheels than when you hang those Fans on a motor . Theres a difference in loud and fast and loud and slow [Harleys etc.]. Equally theres a even bigger difference in quiet and slow and quiet and violent . If you havent drove or rode a Turbo machine thats done right you have never lived . Dont be confused with some factory turbo you drove with a little boost . They are a joke and are only cool for those who dont know what a real turbo is capable of but thats it . Real street power isnt the sound of your pipes or cam' its the sound of your tires being ripped apart each time you hit the throttle you cant fake the tires blowing away in 3rd or 4th gear ! As stated its costly and not for everyone but if your gonna be a bear be a grizzly !
Bob you speak a language i understand well im just trying to resist the urge to boost my low mileage GTS . Do they eat alot of grocerys you bet but theres nothing any badder ! Ill be heading down your path next year is my guess, enjoy the experience that most never will ! Theres always someone with money have no fear :drive:there first ride with you will make them spend it ! Best of luck in your sale !
 

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