New Car & Driver

[Andrew2KRT10]

Corvette still KING??? I laugh so hard when I see how they constantly leave out the Viper in these conparisons and they point out these pathetic 250 HP Boxsters, 315 HP M Roadsters, 349 HP SLK32's, and the 350 hp+ Vettes. , oh and excuse me, the 405 hp Z06. If you ask me, I feel bad for the Vette owners always being a big fish in a little pond. But then I guess that's easy.
The Vette / Viper war is where the interest is, sort of like Tyson/Holyfield, Ali/Fraiser, Holyfield/Bowe. I go to the gym and see guys eyes light up with the magazines.......if they only knew how Vipers squash the competition......

Andrew

 

[Bill Pemberton Woodhouse]

It's okay, Andrew, as your analogy was correct in using the boxing venue. Of course the Corvette is King ----------King of the Lightweight Division!!! Now the " Heavyweight Division "( don't mean to torque you off GM ) has one KING, and that is simply the Snake. Don't see anyone standing up to take a 490 ft. lbs of wollop to the chin - guess the General is simply down and out for the count,ha.

 

[Hisser]

They weren't talking about supercars.

 

[SoCal Rebell]

The Z06 is a straight line sled, I've humbled many with my snake, I don't care what any mag says it's not even close.

 

[GTzViper]

ANDREW,IT'S ALL ABOUT THE BOTTOM LINE. THEY NEED TO SELL MAGAZINES!HOW MANY VETT-OWNERS VRS VIPER OWNERS ARE OUT THERE? THEY NEED TO PLEASE THE MANY NOT THE FEW.

 

[treynor]

Let's also be clear -- the article was about $40-$50K convertibles, not $75K roadsters. The Viper, for all that is good about it, is in a completely different price category than the 'Vette. A good ******* Viper comparo would be:

Dodge Viper RT/10
Porsche 911 Cabrio
Mercedes CLK55 Cabrio
Panoz Roadster
Jaguar XKR Silverstone Cabrio

 

[SoCal Rebell]

You're right Ben, that would be a good comparision. Outcome.......VIPER WINS.....AGAIN.

 

[EuG]

BAKNBLK95RT,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Oh your car is fast but what about the Z06. Well what about it. The Z06 will loose.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That’s a pretty bold thing to say considering you’ve got ’95 RT-10.
I understand somebody with GenII Viper….

 

[SRT10]

Why does the Corvette Chief Eng,Dave Hill, constantly overrate the power of the Z06 Corvette? He had the 2001 Z06 at 0-60 in 4.0 secs and the new 2002 Z06 breaking the 4 sec barrier. Is he running for politics or having a Woodstock moment?

 

[Daffy]

When I saw this thread start yesterday I went out last night to get a copy of the mag because I really like the vette & nearly bought one, except I could do the viper & went for it - now I know that no other car will do for me & I will always have a viper, for many reasons. But, that being written, I was really impressed by the vette's performance in this article. I'd talk smack for fun, but truthfully I think the vette is one hec of a car for the money, and a 12.6 is smokin. With the multiple reports on how well it handles & easier to drive at the edge .. I love seeing it kick the **** of those other worldwide sports cars.

I know most of us talk vette smack just as kidding around, someone posted once that "the vette isn't the enemy, it's the competition". I really liked that. The vette is an incredible car and I love having it & the viper rule the world of performance cars (eventhough I am an ex-porsche turbo owner & like them too). I know nothing could get a viper out of my hands now that I have one, but I'm proud to see the vette win the light-heavy-weight championship again, and again, and ..

Dave.

- I don't mean this to sound like some sentimental slop or something, just my thoughts.

 

[EuG]

BAKNBLK95RT, Dyno numbers is only half of the story. Z06 has a lot of weight advantage on you. Did you ever run yours at the track?

Steve Segal, we have members that ran 117.4MPH trap in a ’01 Z06 with only mod being an air box.

Not trying to start $hit, just noting facts. I think Gen I Viper shouldn’t just dismiss Z06 or you might be in for a surprise

--EuG

<FONT COLOR="#ff0000" SIZE="1" FACE="Verdana, Arial">This message has been edited by EuG on 07-11-2001 at 10:04 AM</font>

 

[Steve Ferguson]

I have a bone stock 93 Viper. Last year at the Route 66 Vette convention, I got the chance to race Jim Mimiker from Vette engineering, in a new ZO6.

Outcome:
My Viper 12.77 His ZO6 13.14.

They are great cars, and the media loves them because they can actually handle them. Put a novice in a Viper and there is no way that they can come close to tapping into the potential within a few short days.

 

[Mike Brunton]

EuG,

Is this 117.4 trap speed the result of Mr. Hall's work? *ALL* of the Z06 owners around my neck of the woods have called that run more BS than they have ever seen... and the Z06's in my neck of the woods are the ones that have run the quickest times ever (one at a 12.00 and one in the LOW 10's at almost 140mph).

Hall is, at best, a questionable source of numbers. He has never once taken any of our guys up on their offer to give him $1000 for his airbox (a lot more than he charges for it), ON THE CONDITION that they can return it if it doesn't add 1mph in trap speed. Since our Boston area guys seem to do pretty well at the track, and are pretty vocal on your forum, I'd think Mr. Hall would jump at the chance.

And how many Z06's are running that well? The average traps for STRONG WELL DRIVEN cars seems to be 114-115... many are much lower in the 111 range.

I'll give the Z06 it's due - it's a very strong competitor to a Gen I Viper, but the outcome of any Z06/GenI Viper is certainly not set in stone, either in the Vipers favor or the Z's favor. Those Gen I's do produce a whole lot of torque, and they can stay in gear a lot longer than the Z06 can.

 

[EuG]

BAKNBLK95RT, I’m not trying to have a “what car is better” discussion. Not in a million years I would start that on Viper forum.
All I’m pointing out to is performance facts.
I hear you on “never loosing to a Vette on the street”, but they’re also some on corvetteforum that say they never lost to a GTS on the street in a Z06. I believe them too, but I don’t think it’s the norm

Like you pointed out they’re just too many factors involved.

Bottom line: Z06 runs ~114MPH, stock (anybody who hasn’t needs more practice) and all C5s pick up ~2-3MPH from an air box (because stock C5 air box is extremely restrictive)

What does stock Gen I Viper usually runs, trap speed vise?

MrViperGTS,

The guy that ran 117.4MPH goes by Ranger.
You can find him on corvette forum.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>outcome of any Z06/GenI Viper is certainly not set in stone, either in the Vipers favor or the Z's favor<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That’s my point exactly!

 

[garolittle]

Man this is good! "Let's get ready to RUMBLE!!!!" Keep this thread going.

 

[treynor]

Here we go again.

First off, let me point out that comparing performance figures from different tracks and/or on different days is useless. Air temp, wind, elevation, track prep, track incline, humidity -- all these can substantially affect both trap speed and MPH. If you want to make valid comparisons, talk about runs made at the same place and time by drivers of comparable skill.

One such data point: I ran into several Z06s last time I was at Sears Point. One had the big C/F CAI, headers, exhaust and ECU mods and an experienced driver; the rest were largely stock with novice drivers. The stock cars ran 12.9 - 13.1 @ 110-112, but let's dismiss that as driver skill. At the time, my '01 RT had K&Ns & tubes, headers, hiflow cats, exhaust, and ECU mods, and thus was directly comparable to the modded Z06. We were both on street tires, and we both ran 2.06 sec 60' times.

The results that day:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>RT: 12.06 @ 120.0, 12.08 @ 120.04
<LI>Z06: 12.38 @ 116.9, 12.41 @ 117.1
[/list]

Regarding a 117.4 MPH run in a stock Z06 -- certainly impressive. Again, hard to compare accurately to Viper #s unless someone was at the track with him/her that day. The best -stock- Viper #s I know of are 11.8 @ 121...

 

[Joseph Houss]

I believe the best dead stock (no k&n's, no smooth tubes) numbers for a Viper are from one of our NJ enthusiasts and profession driver Evan Smith, who, for a story for a Mopar related publication drove down the quarter mile at Raceway Park to an 11.7.

I'm trying to contact him right now to get the MPH. and exact time.

 

[Joseph Houss]

OK,

Here's some more info:

Mopar High Performance or Muscle Magazine

Evan Smith - 2000 Viper RT/10
Perfect day - 65 degrees
Bone Stock

11.77 at 118+

 

[EuG]

treynor , You got good info there! You actually help me make my point

Remember, I was talking about GenI Viper. I do agree that Gen II is faster than Z06, no question about that.

Now, you ran ~120MPH trap vs. 117MPH for Z06 with similar mods (although I gotta mention that exhaust does absolutely nothing on C5…just better sound)

Don’t you think that Gen I with similar mods would be at least a bit slower (i.e comparable if not slower than Z06)?

BTW: Nobody answered what Gen I runs bone stock…

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Regarding a 117.4 MPH run in a stock Z06 -- certainly impressive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not stock (that would be too fast

), with an air box.

Joseph Houss, A while back Evan Smith ran bone stock LS1 powered C5 hard top to 12.6x @ 112MPH (was printed in GM High performance mag). I wonder what he could do in a Z06?! I heard that guy is an incredible driver and they literally kill cars squeezing every last bit out of them during those tests.
Personally, I don’t think it fairly represents what a regular yet good driver can go.

 

[Gerald]

Lets not forget that MPH is the true test of a cars HP. The ET is just you getting off the line. The Viper hits that limit of getting under 12 seconds and will pay for it w/ wheel spin.

If you've EVER driven both cars (I Have) you would see night and day which car has the power advantage and faster.

I've SEEN ppl on this board run BONE STOCK GENI's from 12.3 secs to about 12.8 on average w/ traps in the 113 to 116 or so.

If someone would like to post timeslips, I'm sure you'd see.
If I would have to bet on a 1/4 mile race on a GenI and a ZO6, I'd still go with the GenI, The HP and Torque of the GenI would let a less skilled driver drive it quicker than getting "every" drop of HP and skill to get that Zero6 to perform.
Both nice cars tho..


Gerald

 

[brett]

My Gen II ran 12.1 at over 120 mph consistently. BONE STOCK. Hey by the way EuG, what do you think of the new sports car from BMW...the '01 M3?

 

[EuG]

Wasn’t there a weight difference as well between Gen I & II? Not sure, but remember reading something about that…

BAKNBLK95RT,
Why do you try so hard with all the HP/TQ numbers etc.?

All it takes to settle it is a timeslip or even somebody’s word for that matter.

Gerald, you say bone stock Gen I traps 113-116MPH, average - 114.5MPH. Bone stock Z06 is ~114MPH. My original point. Nothing more, nothing less….

Some more feedback (timeslips, etc) from actual Gen I owners would be nice.

brett,
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>what do you think of the new sports car from BMW...the '01 M3?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LOL. I see you read Corvette forum.

 

[Gerald]

Eug, read the rest of my post. Not just the "quote" you took out.

pound for pound the viper is the faster car, unfortunatley. now the handling on GenI cars is a bit different....

I've had a GenI, and raced a couple Z06's on the street. I've NEVER dragged at the strip and I still beat them. Not by alot, but won, line, roll, etc.

The genI person driving the viper will more consistantly take the Z06. The Z06 to win, IMHO, must be driven perfect. While the GenI viper driver can spin, shift slower if he messes up and stay pretty even.. I used to have a GenI and FL is FILLED with C5's and Z06's..


Gerald

 

[EuG]

eng12, Thanks. You numbers agree with what I’ve said so far.


Gerald, Which part of you post do you want me to re-read?

I agree with you on trap speed issue. I thought it was pretty clear from my posts.

 

[Tom Welch]

EuG,

I don't understand your position. Please help me out.

You have a LATE model highly modified corvette and you want to compare its numbers to a 7 year old bone stock viper? Which by the way you can pick up for around 35K(less than your late model highly modded vette)

I suggest that you compare the LT-1 vette(freakin laughing stock) of similiar year model to the gen 1 viper for an honest comparision.

In any event I own a viper(97 GTS) and a 99 c-5 and both cars are modded exactly the same ie; headers and nitrous. The viper makes the vette feel so slow that it is anti-climactic to drive the vette anymore and it is on the auction block.

There is no substitute for cubic inches and the GAUK factor of the viper. Period end of story. You will search long and hard just to find a stock gen 1 decade old viper that a z06 can beat.

Good Luck, NO FLAMES INTENDED, this subject is just a peave of mine being a mopar man for the last 20+ years

Tom
Http://btrviper.com

 

[EuG]

Tom, I’m NOT comparing my car to anything...

If you go back and read my original post you’ll see that it was a reply to a Gen I owner saying that Gen I Viper is faster than a Z06 (to the point of dismissing Z06):
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Oh your car is fast but what about the Z06. Well what about it. The Z06 will loose.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don’t agree with that, that’s why I replied.

 

[pauls]

What's the point? A new Z06 is almost as good as a 5 year old Viper? I'll give you that. But it's 2001, GMs a little behind! Hell they have to put a 427 in the LeMan car to chase a Viper.

 

[SpeedRacer]

Mike,
If the best time MT can get is 12.6, then that is quite a bit slower than the current Viper which would easily pull a 12.1. A half second in drag racing is all day long, my friend.
As far as the price goes, I'm sure if it was the other way around, Vette guys wouldn't be prefacing their numbers with, "We have a $25K advantage, but...". It's not like the Viper is a half-million dollar car. Should I compare the Vette's performance to a Camaro? If so, then the Vette is a rip-off. Bottom line is that you would have to get over $250K to beat a Viper, but only $25K more will beat a Vette.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MY02_ZO6:
Please do not Flame.
The Z06 is a straight line sled,
Not really the car was not made for strait line acceleration. It was made for the track. Everyone that has a viper says that they are bearly a threat. Well if you look in MT you will se they are running 0-60 4.24 1/4 12.6 @ 114 60-0 105 ft.(01 385 hp) Now top speed on the other hand... yea thats obvious. Also remember this its 50,000 not 75,000 +

Mike




<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Toronto_ACR]

I agree with other viper owners. What the %%%% is going on lately with all this Z06 crap. A few years ago all the magazines were testing the vipers at low 12's and at 119 plus miles per hour in the quarter. They were also quoting that the vipers were constantly doing 1.0g or more. Now you read that all of a sudden we are at 12.4 and up in the quarter at a 116 miles per hour. Plus we are now no where close to the 1.0g we use to do. Is there a conspiracy against the viper or is chevy just plain paying off these stupid idiotic magazines to help in selling there cars. We have the best handling and best performing cars out there period and we still constantly get left out of all the road tests. Except for the 4 wheel drive on the new 911 turbos which incidentally is illegal for racing we kick everyones *** for half the price in the quarter. So would someone please tell these magazines to get someone who knows how to drive a viper or stop the lies and &&&&.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrew2KRT10:
Corvette still KING??? I laugh so hard when I see how they constantly leave out the Viper in these conparisons and they point out these pathetic 250 HP Boxsters, 315 HP M Roadsters, 349 HP SLK32's, and the 350 hp+ Vettes. , oh and excuse me, the 405 hp Z06. If you ask me, I feel bad for the Vette owners always being a big fish in a little pond. But then I guess that's easy.
The Vette / Viper war is where the interest is, sort of like Tyson/Holyfield, Ali/Fraiser, Holyfield/Bowe. I go to the gym and see guys eyes light up with the magazines.......if they only knew how Vipers squash the competition......

Andrew

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Frank 03SRT]

It's just business as usual in car mags (or whatever). When the Viper GTS came out, it got lots of press. Now the Z06 and its 02 variant are getting most all the press. Then will come the Viper 03. Then the new Corvette Chapter whatever. Then the Viper GTS will come out (hopefully). Bet the mags will be following them like a basketball game -- one side then the other. That's what keeps the excitement up, tempers up, and sales of everything up.

It's all a plot to keep us excited, and ain't it fun.