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New viper will handle low boost supercharger and turbo kits!!!

Discussion in 'Generation V Discussions / SRT Coupe, GTS, GTC, AC' started by V10lover, Apr 5, 2012.

  1. V10lover

    V10lover Viper Owner

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    That's perhaps one of the best news about this car for the guys that love big HP numbers.
    No, it won't take crazy boost but the forged pistons and rods + 10.2:1 C/R will make it really safe to play with 4.5-6psi kits in my opinion. These cars could make way over 800 hp (flywheel) with a basic kit.

    That will definetely open for the aftermarket options and companies like paxton, procharger and whipple interested in developing kits for these cars.

    Next step: a programmer like sct or diablo for the new ECU and all that could become reality sooner than later!

    It is good to dream but I would love to see that happenning one day!

    Even More people will buy the viper if it can be supercharged and srt will sell more!
     
  2. 99 R/T 10

    99 R/T 10 Enthusiast

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    Don't see it happening for a LOT of years. Unless you have stupid money to go with a Motec. Just like the Gen 4, bolt-ons for the 99%ers.........:D
     
  3. GONABITE

    GONABITE Enthusiast

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    We have Gen 3 cars with cast internals making over 800HP. The problem with this car is going to be engine calibrating. No one has beat the rolling codes in the 11 and up Dodge products yet. This ECU may be even more advanced, so if that can get taken care of by the time this car is reality the motor will handle much more than 800 HP.

    On another note Ralph told me last night that there will be a performance ECU available for this car like the Gen 4. So 700 HP right off the bat no problem, SRT performance ECU headers exhuast and cold air intake.
     
  4. 72hemi

    72hemi Enthusiast

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    That works for me, all I would want are those bolt-ons. Yee-haw!
     
  5. HANKFAN

    HANKFAN Viper Owner

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    The key will be in how long it will take the aftermarket to figure out the ECU on these cars. It would be a waste to finally have a forged motor from the factory and not be able to add a power adder due to the ECU.
     
  6. BlknBlu

    BlknBlu Viper Owner

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    Mopar is working to add performance parts for the 392 cars. I am guessing the Viper will be no exception to after market goodies in house.

    Bruce
     
  7. plumcrazy

    plumcrazy Viper Owner

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    if it can be boosted for a reasonable cost, im buying one
     
  8. eucharistos

    eucharistos Viper Owner

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    [​IMG]
     
  9. Doug Supercharged Vipers

    Doug Supercharged Vipers Enthusiast

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    Low boost would be a nice addition to this new platform. :2tu:
     
  10. eucharistos

    eucharistos Viper Owner

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    :omg:

    the future looks bright :headbang:
     
  11. Viper Specialty

    Viper Specialty Viper Owner

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    WHOA WHOA WHOA guys. Hold the phone.

    I just posted this yesterday:

    I wish people would stop saying that this engine has "forged internals". The internals coming in this engine will surely be stronger than the Gen-4 parts, but they are NOT on par with the aftermarket. Do not think for a second that you can slap on a TT kit and be done with it- all of the same problems for forced induction from the Gen-4 will translate over to the Gen-5, as they are nearly identical powertrain wise and engine management wise... if not worse because of the joined ECU/ABS w/traction and stability control.

    The engine has "Forged POWDERED METAL" connecting rods, which all 2004+ cars have. Also, the pistons are probably very similar if not identical to the ARCX pistons, and while stronger than the stock ones, are not even in the same league as some of the billet machined pistons out there.

    In short, dont let your imagination run away based on some creative wording and commentary.

    Forged Steel and Forged Powdered Metal are NOT the same thing. PM is brittle by comparison.

    The same goes for Forged High Silicon Aluminum vs. Forged Low Silicon Aluminum.

    Forging is just a process, NOT a specific material. Unfortunately, marketing people know that "Forged" is synonymous with "strong", so they use the word against you out of context to try and score points with uninformed buyers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012
  12. speedracervr4

    speedracervr4 Viper Owner

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    Yea I haven't seen too many boosted gen IVs...so it might be awhile till they figure out the gen Vs ECU.
     
  13. plumcrazy

    plumcrazy Viper Owner

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    damn you, damn you, damn you !!!
     
  14. V10lover

    V10lover Viper Owner

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    I will seriously take in consideration selling/trading in my Gen4 for a Gen5 if It can be supercharged or turbocharged.

    Maybe it is the time for the aftermarket companies like sct really take this new viper in consideration so they could come up with programmers for gen 4 and 5 at once if the ecus are "the same"!
     
  15. V10lover

    V10lover Viper Owner

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    So in theory, what type of hp gains would you project with a really, really basic centrifugal kit running 4.5psi on these new 640hp/600trq powerplant?

    Thank you,
    Tiago.
     
  16. LS6 Molester

    LS6 Molester Viper Owner

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    you should be more concerned about cracking the ECU, otherwise we will have another generation of babydick NA vipers... if thats the case, the 06s will be looking mighty fine
     
  17. V10lover

    V10lover Viper Owner

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    I understand your concern of the rotaing assembly not being so beefy and metals not being as strong as the aftermarket options and respect your opinion on what you said but all I am saying is 4.5psi-6psi of boost, not astronomical numbers which would require the best pistons and rods money can buy :2tu: 4.5psi looks safe on these new engines with the "forged" assembly.

    Looks like the traction control can be turned off on these new carsbut not sure on how thestability control would work with boost. Probably would be put to the test more than ever before :)

    Remember I am talking about BASIC kits with minimal boost and even a basic programmer to control fuel/spark with minimum mods around the 800 hp mark. It can be possible for these cars and I don't see why not if people put their time on expanding the aftermarket territory and options for the vipers in the future..
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012
  18. PDCjonny

    PDCjonny Enthusiast

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    I know nothing about boosting power in late model Vipers but why will it be a piece 'o cake in the Gen 5 and impossible to crack the Gen 4?
    Wouldn't it be even more sophisticated?
     
  19. Viper Specialty

    Viper Specialty Viper Owner

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    I am sorry, but I have to disagree. The Gen-4 and 5 engines are much more efficient than the previous engines, and as such, would not respond the same way that some of the previous engines have. I would estimate that even on 5psi of boost, the Gen-4 and 5 engines would be nearing the 900 horsepower mark, possibly more, in stock form. Combine this with their higher compression ratios, and I can see being well over the limit of what the components are capable of handling in a BIG hurry.

    And this is before you even get into the next area, which is being able to tune it. As said above, the Gen-4 requires big dollars to make Forced Induction. Why would anyone expect the Gen-5 to be easier? It has nearly identical architecture, the same electronics, and even more implementation of those electronics into the chassis.
     
  20. Paolo Castellano

    Paolo Castellano Enthusiast

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    I agree with Dan here about the assumptions people are making when they hear the words "forged pistons and rods" The powdered metal stuff is more brittle for sure....The marketing people are definitely taking advantage of key words people might be looking for to make assumptions...

    To play devil's advocate, I hate to egg everybody on here, BUT here is an interesting perspective to consider: The first cast piston Gen 2 twin turbo I did for Gary Holloway back around 2005 made 627 RWHP tuned by John Reed on 4.25 PSI with AEM and about 10 degrees of timing. As everybody knows the Gen 2 cars made about 400-420 RWHP with stock headers. The first few PSI are always the best. So, if the Gen V's make 580 or so RWHP, and the gain is the same as what I saw on the Gen 2, 580RWHP X 1.5 = 870RWHP. This may be stretching things a bit in terms of the power for the boost and also what the engine may or may not handle.

    This is not the big hurdle IMO. The ECU tuning will definitely be the bigger hurdle especially along with the added complexity of the traction control and stability mode. Even with a high end ECU like MoTeC, Pectel, Pro EFI, it will be a considerable challenge to accomplish the task of a seamless merging of the aftermarket ECU with the status quo without throwing some code that will activate limp mode. This will not be cheap.

    Maybe there could be a super basic piggyback approach to manipulate fuel and and timing without the ECU knowing about it. That would be a question for the people who tune cars for a living.

    The other thing is who knows how much the engine comparment will be different from a gen 3, or 4 in terms of physical displacement available to fit the standard Paxton Kit or a properly designed twin turbo system. Until the car is out there and somebody gets a look, these are all moot points.

    If the Gen 4 ECU was crackable, it would have been done by now. If they make the car cost $140,000.00 there will most likely be less cars sold and those kinds of people will be able to afford to pay big bucks for the high end ECU upgrade that will most certainly be up to the task.

    If the car is super cheap in relative terms, which I doubt will happen, then there might be high enough volume for big companies like SCT to spend the money to crack the code thereby creating a more affordable mode of engine management that will in no way even scratch the surface of what the high end high end aftermarket ECU's can do. At the same time, the average guy who wants some more power for the street could care a less about all the wonderful pie in the sky features the high end ECU's offer. So it will not matter for the average guy wanting 800 RWHP as long as the piggyback or SCT can run the car properly.

    One more thing for people to think about is that doubling the NA power with a turbo setup only increases the load on the reciprocating parts by 20%.
     
  21. V10lover

    V10lover Viper Owner

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    Yes, the gen 4-5s are more efficient than others but at the same time it seems like the gen5 is using the best metals for pistons, rods and crank than a viper motor ever used before.
    At this point in time is hard to say how do these pistons , rods and rod bolts really look like and would withstand the boost because we are yet to see photos of the disassembled engine yet.
    However, I do personally think 900 hp with 5 psi could cause problems but those could be solved with a very conservative tune and what I mean by that is to play soft and safe with ignition timing to even make those cars run on 91 oct. and bring power down to around 800 hp mark.

    In other words keep it low and keep it safe because we do have a forged engine now that could take some boost and that is of course if the ecu is cracked. Also do you know how the knock sensor is integrated to these ECUS on these new cars?

    That makes me believe that with a 700 N/A package that is still to come another extra 100-140hp on top of that would be an awesome second option for the guys that would want some extra spank out of their vipers(myself included).

    Ford racing/Whipple made something similar to that with the very limited and tiny 4.6L 3 valve engine 2005-2010 mustang gts and offered a kit that increased power from 300hp to 550hp running 10-11 pounds of boost via whipple supercharger and its kit. If you look at the picture of the connecting rods(hair shaft thick) for those engines you would never think that would be possible. Guess what, They made it work with very safe timing and help from the knock sensors, 91 octane pump gas and warranty!

    If they could do that with a miserable 4.6L of displacement cast pistons and rods and added 250hp and massive twin screw torque on top of that and guys like me were beating the heck out of those cars with great engine longevity makes me believe that a viper with a monster v10 engine with a new forged rotating assembly never offered before could last a long time running low boost.

    SRT and independent companies can make that happen for us, viper owners!

    just my .2 cents.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012
  22. Viper Specialty

    Viper Specialty Viper Owner

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    How did you come to that conclusion? I went over this in my earlier post. The components being used on the Gen-5 are NOT FORGED like everything keeps saying they are. Go back and re-read my post, it explains it. If you want to get technical, the Gen-1 & 2 cars still had more durable rods and pistons than gen-5 from a material perspective.


    I dont need to see photos to tell you what is inside that engine. This is basically an ACRX engine with a new manifold. Again, please go read my post.



    As I said in the previous post, this is not a tunable car for any reasonable cost. As such, why in the world would anyone make a "small" twin turbo kit or stick with stock internals? You are already head over heels in electronics costs and turbo kit costs- you may as well utilize them and make a reliable package instead.


    I am sure it is integrated into the factory ECU like any other more recent car or chrysler product in general. I cant tell you exactly; I dont utilize their code, nor does anybody else for the Gen-4 and up.
     
  23. V10lover

    V10lover Viper Owner

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  24. Paolo Castellano

    Paolo Castellano Enthusiast

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  25. V10lover

    V10lover Viper Owner

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    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012
  26. Paolo Castellano

    Paolo Castellano Enthusiast

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    you make a [
    then you say quote = poster's name

    then you make a ]

    then after what they say you make a [

    then /

    then ]

    Just look at when you do the initial quoting on somebody, you will see what I mean!

    I think the car can handle 4-5 PSI because like I posted earlier, when the power is doubled, the load on the reciprocating parts only increases by 20%.

    JG 01's cast piston RT/10 did not have as good of rods as the Gen V and his car made about 800 RWHP and did 100-150 MPH on highway pulls in 4.5 seconds per AEM datalogging. The thrashed the **** out of his car every day on the highway for 15,000 miles. Hell, when he left to drive his car home from Donovan's shop, he had 660 miles to get home, I had 285 and I drove 85-90 MPH the whole way home. JG01 got home an hour after I did! Think about that!

    1Need 4Speed's cast piston 2001 GTS ran 15 PSI on pump gas with Water-Meth and destroyed GSX-R 1000's and Hayabusas by bus lengths on an 80-160 highway roll-on. They did a 4th and 5th gear pull to redline on 22PSI on pump and water-meth no problem and had identical leakdown numbers after that run which was probably 1100 RWHP. He did, however, blow the car up on the dyno due to a tuning error detonating on 25 PSI. But just think about running 1100 RWHP from 115-200+MPH on the highway on a cast motor and having identical leakdown numbers upon checking the car after the pull? Am I saying that the cast 2001 motor could handle that time and time again? No, but on the 15 PSI Setting, it did 950 RWHP highway roll-on races decimating the fastest lightly modded GSX-R's and Hayabusas repeatedly. This is why I think750-800 RWHP should be no problem.

    But Dan does have a point that there is no budget option for the tuning for boost. If someone could crack the Gen 4 ECU, they most likely would have by now. So the only thing to do is pay at least 10K for a Pectel when John Reed gets around to making a plug and play setup for the Gen V. Dan is right, once somebody goes this route on their 120-140K new Viper, are they not most likely going to get the bottom end built?

    One could definitely get the Pectel installed and drive the car for a period of time with the TT on low boost in the 750-800 RWHP range and do the motor later, as the car will be much faster than stock even with some stock ECU reflash. 800 RWHP with that gearing would be so fantastic on the street and highway to say the least!
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012
  27. George Murray

    George Murray Enthusiast

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    Don't add forced induction. Instead, gut the hell outta the car yourself. Lighten it up by 400-500 LBs, and the stock HP/TQ will be quite nice.

    The cup holders, cruise control, NAV, stereo, A/C, door panels, carpet, passenger seat, insulation, head liner, etc...

    If that doesn't do enough, there's always personal weight loss - try the supermodel diet: champagne, cigarettes, and Tic Tacs
     
  28. V10lover

    V10lover Viper Owner

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    :)

    / ( ) ******* @@@@##### Who cares... I just hope you guys understand what I am trying to say. English is also my sec. language so if anything forgive some things that might not make sense. I might pressed the wrong button too. lol....:omg: :)
     
  29. Viper Specialty

    Viper Specialty Viper Owner

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    You do realize you are arguing with some people who build these cars for a living, right? You may want to take the advice being given to you in the thread, LOL!


    Edit: [For Paolo above: What you are forgetting in your comments about the cast piston cars is that those cars had TRUE forged connecting rods that were quite stout. The cars since 2004 have PM rods, and this new car does as well. The new cars not only have to worry about pistons, but also the rods with regard to power production. Beyond that, the head fasteners will not support a whole lot more, and then next will come the main hardware.]
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2012
  30. Paolo Castellano

    Paolo Castellano Enthusiast

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    For ESL, your posts are great! ;)
     

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