The current and future state of Viper sales and technology

ViperDC

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Please find me a FGT for close to the Gen V MSRP that's not been wrecked, I'll take as many as you can find.

What he said.

Back to the Viper...bottom line, people still love this car. They had a orange TA at a cars and coffee I went to awhile back and it had a massive crowd around it the whole time and there was some HEAVY DUTY stuff there. The only cars with bigger crowds were the brand new Ferrari 458 Speciale and the F40 that showed up halfway through.

The Viper buyers want an ACR and a convertible. Those are most important, IMO. After that, they want more power. Doesn't have to be crazy, I'm talking like 50 HP. Oh and BUILD MORE SRTs! No one is going to pay 140k for a GTS!
 

sunsalem

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Please find me a FGT for close to the Gen V MSRP that's not been wrecked, I'll take as many as you can find.
LOL, yeah, that.

Most of the GTs I see online are going from $300-400k...used.
I had a chance to buy one new at MSRP or even less way back then.:doh2:


What he said.

Back to the Viper...bottom line, people still love this car. They had a orange TA at a cars and coffee I went to awhile back and it had a massive crowd around it the whole time and there was some HEAVY DUTY stuff there. The only cars with bigger crowds were the brand new Ferrari 458 Speciale and the F40 that showed up halfway through.
Doesn't surprise me.
Vipers are very rare in Oregon.
I have yet to see a G5 on the road here....


The Viper buyers want an ACR and a convertible. Those are most important, IMO. After that, they want more power. Doesn't have to be crazy, I'm talking like 50 HP. Oh and BUILD MORE SRTs! No one is going to pay 140k for a GTS!
No argument here.

Also, I do think there are a lot of guys waiting on an auto trans.
The Viper crowd is getting older; there are very few young owners.
Old Farts (like me) don't want to fuss with a manual clutch anymore or be hampered by slow gear changes when competing against other cars.
The upcoming Z06 ,with its optional 8-speed (alleged to be faster than Porsche's PDK), is a very tempting ride.
 

emericr

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Today yes, they are in the mid 200s but when the Viper came out 1.5 year ago, there were plenty available in the $170K range which was within $20K of a decked out GTS. It would have been a great investment...
 

Tiago

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I bought my 2013 srt base for around $88k (including the Gen 3 trade). The Gen 3 stickered for $84k back in 2006.

I know the Gen 4 is comparable in hp to the Gen 5 and maybe performs similarly, but unless the gen 4 differs significantly from the Gen 3 in functional areas other than performance, the Gen 5 is not 90% the same car, not close.... traction control, 7 inch LCD touch screen, improved comfort, gearing, llighter, new chassis with increased rigidity, new forged pistons...........................

those are small differences. And the competitors in the market all have the same ****, or better, plus the other performance toys I mentioned...
 

Stealth

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those are small differences. And the competitors in the market all have the same ****, or better, plus the other performance toys I mentioned...

With all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about.

I just sold my Gen IV Coupe and it was a very good car. Strong, reliable, mean looking, great handling, etc. I now have 200 miles on my 2014 GTS with leather, carbon fiber, etc. I can tell you for a fact that the cars (IV and V) are not separated by "small differences"--not even close. Of course, other than looks and construction, you will only see and feel these differences by actually driving the car. For me, the change was worth it. Hopefully enough others will feel the same way and strong support of the Viper will follow.

In addition, a friend has 2 Ford GTs and a Gallardo (and other vehicles) and I have driven both cars and consider them to be inferior sportscars compared to the Gen V. Yes, the Heritage painted Ford GT is [email protected]@ looking and I like the car, but not more than the Gen V. Btw, I liked the FGT much better than the Gallardo. The bottom line is that each car (and each generation of each car) will have its supporters and its pros and cons. They are all great cars. If you drive a Gen V or even ride in one you will see and feel the differences.
 

kdaviper

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I think what the Viper needs is more strategic advertising. becoming a cultural icon involves more than just catering to your bread-and-butter auto enthusiast in has-been auto magazines and fan boy trolls on auto websites. Why do i not see Vipers in movies? Dodge should be trying to sell this car to everybody, even if they only want to produce 1200 maximum. I wonder what percentage of the United States population even knows what the Gen V looks like, or even that it exists?
 

sunsalem

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I think what the Viper needs is more strategic advertising. becoming a cultural icon involves more than just catering to your bread-and-butter auto enthusiast in has-been auto magazines and fan boy trolls on auto websites. Why do i not see Vipers in movies? Dodge should be trying to sell this car to everybody, even if they only want to produce 1200 maximum. I wonder what percentage of the United States population even knows what the Gen V looks like, or even that it exists?
Many others have also pointed out how abysmal SRT's Marketing effort has been.
 

Tiago

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With all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about.

I just sold my Gen IV Coupe and it was a very good car. Strong, reliable, mean looking, great handling, etc. I now have 200 miles on my 2014 GTS with leather, carbon fiber, etc. I can tell you for a fact that the cars (IV and V) are not separated by "small differences"--not even close. Of course, other than looks and construction, you will only see and feel these differences by actually driving the car. For me, the change was worth it. Hopefully enough others will feel the same way and strong support of the Viper will follow.

In addition, a friend has 2 Ford GTs and a Gallardo (and other vehicles) and I have driven both cars and consider them to be inferior sportscars compared to the Gen V. Yes, the Heritage painted Ford GT is [email protected]@ looking and I like the car, but not more than the Gen V. Btw, I liked the FGT much better than the Gallardo. The bottom line is that each car (and each generation of each car) will have its supporters and its pros and cons. They are all great cars. If you drive a Gen V or even ride in one you will see and feel the differences.

you missed the point. Its not that its not an improvement on the gen IV. You would expect it to be.

but for example, improved chassis. My opinion is that they can't change more for the an improved chassis that is still made of steel. But if they had gone to aluminum for example, maybe that would support added cost.


It just doesn't bring enough to the table at the market level they are trying to compete in.
 

ViperSmith

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you missed the point. Its not that its not an improvement on the gen IV. You would expect it to be.

but for example, improved chassis. My opinion is that they can't change more for the an improved chassis that is still made of steel. But if they had gone to aluminum for example, maybe that would support added cost.


It just doesn't bring enough to the table at the market level they are trying to compete in.
But you can get them for steal prices now and they still aren't flying. So, the price argument isn't really all it is cracked up to be. That is, unless, all the desirable combos have been scooped up.
 

sunsalem

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Fellow member Torquemonster found something very interesting on the Top Gear site:

Company insiders hinted that the Viper is being completely rethought. Now that Fiat and Chrysler are one company, all technology is being shared across the company – including Ferrari’s for the first time – which opens the door to a possible hybrid Viper. That car could use the Hellcat engine and add an electric motor giving the Dodge supercar over 900bhp. The company is also researching possible four-wheel drive systems for the car, which wouldn’t appear for a couple of years yet…

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/dodge-challenger-srt-hellcat-review-2014-7-23
 

SnakeBitten

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Fellow member Torquemonster found something very interesting on the Top Gear site:

Company insiders hinted that the Viper is being completely rethought. Now that Fiat and Chrysler are one company, all technology is being shared across the company – including Ferrari’s for the first time – which opens the door to a possible hybrid Viper. That car could use the Hellcat engine and add an electric motor giving the Dodge supercar over 900bhp. The company is also researching possible four-wheel drive systems for the car, which wouldn’t appear for a couple of years yet…

http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/dodge-challenger-srt-hellcat-review-2014-7-23

Woah...that would be a huge departure from the Viper formula. If true I wonder how Ralph feels about this? In any case its obvious the car needs to offer competing tech AND performance to be taken seriously and sell successfully in this era. It seems performance without the tech is not taken seriously even if its kicking your **** on a track.

I would hate to see the Vipers entire line lose the purity of its current formula but would love to see a single model aimed and equipped properly for that high-end crowd and one that can actually take it to the competition on more than just a road course. There should always be a model with RWD, manual and a V10 imho to keep a link to its origanal ethos and for the Viper Nation that desires that interface but also add that model that would take the platform to the cutting edge like the other manufactures have done.

Now there are two ways they could do this. Make a Viper model to be the showcase car for that cutting edge tech OR make a separate model car a la the dead ME 4-12. I would prefer to see a Viper in that upper echelon personally.

If Fiat opens the purse strings I dont see why we can't have the current Viper and a higher tech Viper existing at the same time. Imho it really doesnt need to be hybrid, jsut give the current car a DI/DCT/LC/CCB's combo and you have a car that will run away from the current under 500k competition in the straights and twisties. Me thinks that may be a lot cheaper than engineering a hybrid Viper from scratch.

If you have reached the limit with 640hp on what the current setup will efficiently put down then engineer the components around that V10 monster to use its prodigeous power more efficiently. Get more of that power to the ground quicker and longer with a DCT/LC etc. Stop making excuses.
 

PDCjonny

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Maybe It's time to put the "Viper" name to bed and introduce an all new Dodge supercar.
Stop the purists from crying and get rid of all the "has to be 10 cyl, manual" old skool baggage.
 

viper vince

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What I find really interesting is that most of Chrysler/ Fiat upper management did not buy one of these GEN V s. Like Herb, **** etc. Ralph is the only one that did and now he is not in charge of SRT any more. What is everyones thoughts on this? i went to an Auto cross event last fall and I did not see one GEN V car a lot of GEN 4's mostly ACR's.
 

ViperSmith

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Maybe It's time to put the "Viper" name to bed and introduce an all new Dodge supercar.
Stop the purists from crying and get rid of all the "has to be 10 cyl, manual" old skool baggage.

What does it matter what "Viper Enthusiasts" think anyway? They didn't buy the Gen IV in large numbers and they didn't buy the Gen V in large numbers (As ralph stated, over 60% were to new customers)

So what does it matter what they re-image the car as? People can't upgrade will continue to complain endlessly no matter what it seems.

As long as it is a kick *** contender, I say do whatever they want. Make it a V8 with KERS and DCT.
 

SnakeBitten

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Maybe It's time to put the "Viper" name to bed and introduce an all new Dodge supercar.
Stop the purists from crying and get rid of all the "has to be 10 cyl, manual" old skool baggage.

You might be right Jon but I was looking at a way to make all sides happy though that is pretty much impossible. Eventually Dodge will have to let go of the past if they want to succeed in the present.
 

ViperDC

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What does it matter what "Viper Enthusiasts" think anyway? They didn't buy the Gen IV in large numbers and they didn't buy the Gen V in large numbers (As ralph stated, over 60% were to new customers)

Great point. Their "expert opinions" led to the design of this gen V and then they didn't buy the car.
 

sunsalem

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What does it matter what "Viper Enthusiasts" think anyway? They didn't buy the Gen IV in large numbers and they didn't buy the Gen V in large numbers (As ralph stated, over 60% were to new customers)
That's gotta hurt...
SRT should have understood this would happen.
 

Dave T(BADVENM)

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Just read the 2015 Viper will get a bump to 645hp vs current 640 via Road and Track article.
 

Stealth

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Just read the 2015 Viper will get a bump to 645hp vs current 640 via Road and Track article.

I believe that this will be an ecu reflash that will apply to all Gen Vs. If instead the bump is due to a new intake, I would not likely change intakes for 5hp.
 
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lawdogg149

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It wasn't official. At least it gives us a hint that viper will live on for another year. Of Course till its official then it never even happened. Yea me too if all you had to say about a new model was 5 hp I would just not say anything at all.
 

sunsalem

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Here is a copy of the R&T article mentioned above:

More Mopar engine news today: The 2015 Viper is getting extra power. And no, before you ask, it’s not by way of a Hellcat V-8. We already told you that wasn’t going to happen. The Viper, now rightfully a Dodge again, is keeping its 8.4-liter V10.
The news comes from the same source that confirmed the impending existence of a Hellcat-engined Charger sedan, the SAE J1349 certification database. (SAE J1349 is an opt-in test for manufacturers to get engine output certified. Currently, Ford, GM, and Chrysler are the only automakers that take advantage of it.)
Some tuning brings horsepower up to 645 from 640; torque stays at 600 lb-ft. It’s not quite enough to beat the 650-hp new Corvette Z06, but there’s a good chance the Viper will be the lighter car.
While the SAE certification doesn’t say how the extra power was coaxed out, we’d guess that it involves some combination of improved breathing and altered code. Maybe something was learned from the hole-in-the-headlight arrangement that feeds the Hellcat’s airbox. Or maybe they were just sandbagging before.
Reminder: Putting a Hellcat engine in a Viper would be silly! While the supercharged 6.2 makes 62 hp and 50 lb-ft of torque more than the Viper V-10, it weighs about 180 pounds more and the blower means it’s too tall to fit under the stock hood. It’s a ridiculous idea, and one that someone will inevitably make real, and we will enjoy its smoky burnouts all the same.
And even if the Viper doesn’t have 707 hp, it keeps its superior power-to-weight ratio, which for 2015 is improved by 0.8 percent. We’re confident it will still light the tires on command.
 

anton28

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For the European customer...it's too big, too hot, too thirsty, too basic, too useless in our streets or as daily driver and too expensive due to taxes based on CO2....and apart from the last part, this is exactly why I like it.

Gas is way more expensive over here than in the states, which makes it for the normal man almost impossible to drive, not only due to gasprice, but also due to emission taxes, these taxes make the purchase price about double the US price and that makes insurance really expensive. The European magazines call the Viper a dinosaur, old fashioned, lumpy and brutal, to me that sounds appealing and I love the reactions on the car, but the market for such cars is very, very small over here. people tend to buy Porsches, Audi's or Nissans instead, they use less fuell, cost the same money, are more usable, people know the EU cars better and they can choose from a wide range of dealers and specced cars. On the Viper, allthough there are "lots" of options now, it does feel like take it as is for us EU customers...

Apart from all that, not too many people over here think the Viper is worth more money than the Vette, this one is more usable and the critics say it has better/ more EU spec handling and it's not as wild as the Viper..but than again, that's why I don't want the Vette.

On a Dutch board people tend to say that in the early days the Viper was worth the extra money because it was more faster...but now the old Z06 is about equally as fast as the current Viper...
To be honest I also went and have a look at a Z06, but it didn't steal my heart like the Viper does, mostly those floppy seats made that happen, as for the new Vette and the GEN 5 Viper exactly the same seems to be the case, the Stingray still hasn't got any nice seats and the looks of the car are way less aggressive than those of the Viper, I would still choose Viper, but many people choose the Vette due to usabillity and less screaming presence I guess...

I agree this car is not for the European market but its def not to big. Its smaller then my DBS and actually an inch shorter then the new 911.
 

pathoguy

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It wasn't official. At least it gives us a hint that viper will live on for another year. Of Course till its official then it never even happened. Yea me too if all you had to say about a new model was 5 hp I would just not say anything at all.

I would rather see no production in 2015 and even 2016 than these tame/lame changes. Let the car hibernate for a time while big changes are planned. Let the fever and wanting build and then release something really outstanding, relative to what's out there.

I don't read car mags, but hope they have it wrong.
 
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sunsalem

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Woah...that would be a huge departure from the Viper formula.
I find the idea of a hybrid 900 HP Viper a little nuts.:crazy2:
The cost of the G5 has already scared off buyers.
I couldn't imagine what a hybrid Snake would cost.

In case anyone is wondering the latest Ferrari hypercar is the LaFerrari.
It sells for 1.35 Million bucks (chump change, right? :D).
800 HP V12 + 163 HP KERS = 963 HP
http://www.laferrari.com/en/


I would hate to see the Vipers entire line lose the purity of its current formula but would love to see a single model aimed and equipped properly for that high-end crowd and one that can actually take it to the competition on more than just a road course. There should always be a model with RWD, manual and a V10 imho to keep a link to its origanal ethos and for the Viper Nation that desires that interface but also add that model that would take the platform to the cutting edge like the other manufactures have done.

Now there are two ways they could do this. Make a Viper model to be the showcase car for that cutting edge tech OR make a separate model car a la the dead ME 4-12. I would prefer to see a Viper in that upper echelon personally.

If Fiat opens the purse strings I dont see why we can't have the current Viper and a higher tech Viper existing at the same time. Imho it really doesnt need to be hybrid, jsut give the current car a DI/DCT/LC/CCB's combo and you have a car that will run away from the current under 500k competition in the straights and twisties. Me thinks that may be a lot cheaper than engineering a hybrid Viper from scratch.

If you have reached the limit with 640hp on what the current setup will efficiently put down then engineer the components around that V10 monster to use its prodigeous power more efficiently. Get more of that power to the ground quicker and longer with a DCT/LC etc. Stop making excuses.
I agree about getting more of the power to the ground.
Greater traction via tires AND downforce would be very much welcome.

However, I don't see much of a future with the current V10.
EPA/NHTSA and CAFE standards are going to be coming on-line in the near future.
The 8.4L dinosaur will have to be replaced.
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/climate/regs-light-duty.htm#new1

A smaller V10 turbo may be an answer. :dunno:
 
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