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Viper Philosophy

Discussion in 'Generation V Discussions / SRT Coupe, GTS, GTC, AC' started by black mamba1, Mar 3, 2012.

  1. black mamba1

    black mamba1 Enthusiast

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    Hey guys, its been a while since I've posted. Been away from Viper world every since a local dealer totaled my Viper in 2010. The arrival of the Gen 5 is very exciting.

    However, when one steps back away from something they value deeply for a significant period of time, in my case Vipers, it does allow for a unique perspective when returning to Viper world.

    My question now regarding Vipers is...what exactly is the Viper philosophy now? When Vipers first hit the scene they were without question the dominant sports car under half a million dollars and a bold American statement of in-your-face power and non compromising values. Those values and that statement was a gift...but has that gift now become a curse?

    The reason I am asking that question is this...everyone in here pretty much assumes the new Viper will cost more than the current ZR1. From everything that I've read, the new Viper will have around 650 to 660 hp...12 or 22 more hp than the ZR1...not enough to get significant performance difference with good drivers. Yes, an ACR set a record at Nurburgring, but ACR's are rare and cant hold their own in high speed races where the wing acts as a brake. The Lamborghini Aventador is coming out the showroom floor running 2.9 sec to 60 mph and 10.6 in the quarter at 134 mph. Its doing that with 700 hp and awd....the new Ferrari GT will soon hit the scene with 740 hp, awd, and is lighter and smaller than the outgoing 599 GTB. It wouldnt be unreasonable to expect that car to beat the Lambos numbers. And, of course there is always that Z06 rivalry. That car has almost 100 hp less than the Gen 4 yet its performance numbers are very close to the Gen 4's. The latest Porsche 911 Turbo outperformed the ZR1 two years ago...and of course its awd.

    We've got a 650 hp Mustang on the horizon, and the C7 Vette coming out in about a year, and probably the new Acura NSX also with awd coming out...and of course there is the GTR Nissan and the Audi R8 awd car has numbers that rival the latest Vipers.

    So my question is...what exactly is the bold statement Viper is making today? I have been making this argument for years, as long as Viper remains a rwd car, the awd cars with lower power will eat our lunch in a drag race and the higher powered awd cars like Lambo, Ferrari and even the lower powered 911 Turbo will eat our lunch in any kind of a race except maybe a technical road course. So..what is Vipers statement today? You can best believe the C7 Vettes will answer the modest power increases of the Gen 5 and the C7 Z06 will rival the Gen 5 if not beat it, and if there is a C7 ZR1 it will probably blow the doors off the Gen 5.

    Before you guys blow a gasket just let me say I love Vipers and I am going to get another, probably a Gen 5. But honestly, what is Vipers statement today? Just a high powered American sports car with average drag race performance and excellent road course performance? Is Viper turning into more of an image car on the road than the Boss Badd Ass of the streets? What is the philosophy behind Viper today? Seriously...what are your thoughts?
     
  2. HyperViper

    HyperViper Enthusiast

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    For starters horsepower will be above 650 -660 and second, what makes you think a newer version of the ZR1 will blow the doors off a Gen V ACR when they come out?
     
  3. elanderholm

    elanderholm Enthusiast

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    it's road course dominating car that can driven on the streets. it's not a drag racer or some kind of stupid ricer stop light champion. You want that pick one of the other cars you mentioned. If you want an extremely fast road course car that rewards good driving and looks like a million bucks get a viper.

    when you say car x out performs car y what are you referring to? The 911 turbo does not out perform the Zr1 except maybe 0-60 which i don't care about. You care about that get a GTR or 911 turbo S.
     
  4. 01viper4me

    01viper4me Enthusiast

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    Well I would have to answer this a couple ways. While the Viper has always been exceptional in the performance area, it has never been the fastest in top speed, or in acceleration. Plenty of cars of the same era's have better performance numbers. I imagine SRT could "easily" make an AWD version of the Viper, slap some turbos on the engine, and put paddle shifters on it to make a complete performance beast. But top speed is really only for bragging rights as you will never be able to max out in the real world.
    The point of the Viper is to be able to own/drive a car that embodies the raw connection between driver and car that you lose with all the drivers aids that Ferrari, Lamborghini, Audi, and the GTR embody. When I get in a car, I want to have fun and love the experience every time and the Viper requires a skilled driver who is willing to respect the car.
    Also, there are few cars who's shape is so iconic as the GTS and when I drive my Viper everyone looks and gets excited. I would venture to say only Lamborghini or Porsche have such an Iconic look to it that even the most novice car people can recognize.
    I am sure the Gen 5 will have the performance numbers to back up the Viper's heritage and I have little doubt that we will see a sub 7 minute lap around the Nurburgring in the next 3 years from the Viper. That being said, it still wont be the fastest in top speed or the quickest to 60 but that isn't the sole purpose of the Viper.
    Ultimately I think it's purpose is to blend the special bond between man and machine... if it accomplishes this in the Gen 5, then it will accomplish its purpose. Just my two cents.

    On a side note... it will be fun to watch it destroy the Z06 and ZR1 :)
     
  5. black mamba1

    black mamba1 Enthusiast

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    01Viper4me that was a very well said response. For drivers to reconnect with the spirit of American racing and American power is what in my view the Viper offers. It looks seriously badass, is unique, and dare I say turns more heads if not just as many heads as Lambo's turn. Having said that I think we are either at the time or fastly approaching that time wherein the new technology of awd and other high tech advances is creating separation in performance of rwd cars vs awd cars.

    You know when we drive our Vipers and we run across a high powered 67 Vette or supercharged Chevelle with 700 hp, we acknowledge the nostalgia of those cars from that era and we also acknowledge that those cars a very fast in a straight line...like almost any car can be made to be. They acknowledge where they may be able to give any car a run in a straight line, the advances of our Vipers sets them miles away from us in practically every other area of performance. Now...here is the oncoming dilemma...the higher tech cars with all wheel drive are moving away from the rwd cars in straight line performance and those cars are closing whatever gap remains in other areas of performance. I dare say in the next 5 years awd dirve cars will be tier one in performance, Vipers and Vettes will be tier two, and the high powered heavy cars like your Camaros and Mustangs will be tier three.

    If you take your current day Vipers and put them in straight line acceleration against current Ferrari's and Lambo's, the Viper loses. If you put the current Viper vs the current Lambo's and Ferrari's and current 911 Turbo on the oval race track here at Charlotte Motor Sports...the Viper loses. So our current claim to fame is we have a seriously mean looking car that cant be beat on an Indy Course...and of course its a dream to drive. So, thats two areas of "racing" the Viper has surrendered its lead. My point is that at the current rate in advances in technology the Viper may just become a relatively fast car that looks really mean, is fun to drive, whose performance characteristics may become mostly nostalgic.

    The old timers love driving their Shelby Cobras and big block Challengers for nostalga and experience. Kinda like the Aston Martin crowd is...those cars lost any type of threatening performance speed wise in practically every cateragory about a decade ago...so now...the only reason to buy an Aston Martin is because you just want an Aston Martin...its certainly no threat on any track compared to current Vipers, Porsches, and even the Vettes.

    I love Vipers and will continue to support the club and drive Vipers. I just hope we are not one day only driving them for nostalga....having surrendered all racing cateragories to the rice rockets and the Italians and struggling to stay on par with the bowtie.
     
  6. 01sapphirebob

    01sapphirebob Enthusiast

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    This is one statement I would have to disagree with. When the GTS came out there was only one category that it could not compete in and that was braking. I refer to this article Motor Trend High Speed shoot out. I believe the GTS took just about all the categories.

    http://gallery.viperclub.org/search.php?searchid=68109
     
  7. Bobpantax

    Bobpantax Enthusiast

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    Hi Keith welcome back. You are missing the point being made. An oval course is not a road course. The Viper ACR is the current king of the road course with a 2010 model. It set the Ring record and many domestic track road course records last year. The Viper was never designed as a drag racing vehicle. It was never designed as an oval racer. The Gen V will have better performance than the prior generations - on a road course ( and probably under all conditions). With that said, because of the changes required in 2012, the soul of the Viper will be forever changed. It might even end up having a launch control for those who insist on using a Viper for drag racing like you.

    Note also that the Porsche GT2 RS, the top Porsche road course car, is a two wheel drive vehicle and costs 250K. It ran 7:18 at the Ring - almost 4 seconds slower than the Viper ACR.

    Don't forget to vote for Romney. LOL.
     
  8. Lee00blacksilverGTS

    Lee00blacksilverGTS Enthusiast

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    Welcome back Keith, you've been away for a bit so you may not be aware of all the tracks where Viper now holds the record. And expect the Gen 5 to be just as fast as the ACR's that set these records. And take a look at that last track, looks like a banked oval to me.

    [TABLE="class: cms_table"]
    [TR]
    [TD]MotorSport Ranch (full course), Cresson, Texas[/TD]
    [TD]2:19.00[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Willow Springs Raceway, Rosamond, Calif[/TD]
    [TD]1:26.00[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Putnam Park, Mount Meridian, Ind.[/TD]
    [TD]1:12.60[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]No Problem Raceway, Belle Rose, La.[/TD]
    [TD]1:16.90[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Buttonwillow Raceway Park, Buttonwillow, Calif.[/TD]
    [TD]1:55.70[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Autobahn Country Club, Joliet, Ill.[/TD]
    [TD]2:37.70[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Virginia International Raceway, Alton, Va.[/TD]
    [TD]2:48.60[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Spring Mountain (2.2 mile layout), Pahrump, Nev.[/TD]
    [TD]1:45.40[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Nelson Ledges Road Course, Garrettsville, Ohio[/TD]
    [TD]1:08.90[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Laguna Seca Raceway, Salinas. Calif.[/TD]
    [TD]1:33.90[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Gingerman Raceway, South Haven, Mich.[/TD]
    [TD]1:26.70[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Top Gear USA (El Toro), Irvine, Calif.[/TD]
    [TD]1:22.00[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Miller Motorsport Park (perimeter), Tooele, Utah[/TD]
    [TD]1:59.99[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Monticello Motor Club, Monticello, N.Y.[/TD]
    [TD]2:26.37[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Sebring Full Course, Sebring, Fla.[/TD]
    [TD]2:19.47[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]New Jersey Motorsports Park, Millville, N.J.[/TD]
    [TD]1:28.08[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Texas World Speedway, College Station, Texas[/TD]
    [TD]1:47.56[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Nürburgring Nordschleife, Nürburg, Germany[/TD]
    [TD]7:12.13[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Grattan Raceway, Belding, Mich.[/TD]
    [TD]1:22.70[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Daytona Raceway, Daytona, Fl.[/TD]
    [TD]1:54.05[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
     
  9. BigDawg

    BigDawg Enthusiast

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    The Viper ranks have been tainted by a large percentage of people who don't truly understand (or like) (or care) what it is/was really about. That is why all the cries for TC, Stability Control, nicer interior, more comfort, etc. All IMHO
     
  10. eucharistos

    eucharistos Enthusiast

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    ditto :D

    :drive:
     
  11. black mamba1

    black mamba1 Enthusiast

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    Bob, you always bait me....and I always take the bait! :D I gotta be honest, I cant stand to watch CNN, MSNBC, and I could never watch Fox. I havent followed politics in about two years...its just revolting to hear the constant lying from candidates and the networks. Every single thing the Republicans say about Democrats is most likely a lie, and everything the Democrats say about the Republicans is most likely a lie. And the networks lie, lie, and just lie some more to slant or shade their stories to support whatever agenda the network is aligned to.

    Its disgusting and everything politicians do is kinda predictable. They answer to big money, then lie about it. Im glad Obama got Bin Laden, and Im glad Sarah Palin is not a heart attack away from being President, but besides that....honestly, I really dont give a damn about any of them anymore.

    I'd rather hang out with Viper guys and talk Viper stuff. Politicians really arent worth anyone times in this forum...I havent met a Viper guy I didint like...I've never met a politician that I did. So for now Bob, you've lost a debating partner...but if Romney picks Madonna as his running partner.....well......:dunno:....you never know....:D
     
  12. C.Hermsen

    C.Hermsen Enthusiast

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    Welcome back Keith!!

    <--- current owner of Blackmamba1 :D
     
  13. PDCjonny

    PDCjonny Enthusiast

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    Keith's interest is street racing and highway rolls he has expressed it many times.
    And the new Viper, or any stock viper is not for him in that application.
    They cannot hang with the AWD beasts out there certainly not from a dig.
    The new GT-R at 0-60 in 2.7 will embarrass it and most others.
    And many more lurk on the street. That's just how it is now.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2012
  14. I Bin Therbefor

    I Bin Therbefor Enthusiast

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    I can't quantify this BUT I hold that the first gen Viper could be identified by one world "RAW." There was a rawness about the performance and styling. I suppose you could add the word brutal. A "brutal rawness." Like the early Ferrari street cars which were usually just rebodied racers that were sold to finance the racing team. IMO the next generation Vipers were bland in styling. The first generation Vipers were like the 289 Cobras in lack of refinement. Back to the Viper. Not only the Viper itself but the driving experience in the first gen Viper cars could also be described as brutally raw. This is usually described as "in your face." Whatever that first gen Viper did, it did it with brutal rawness. That subjective but I hold very real, element, brutal rawness, is what is disappearing as the car becomes more refined. The more refined Vipere will probably appeal to a wider market but whether it will appeal to those who love the first gen cars is an open question.
     
  15. Bobpantax

    Bobpantax Enthusiast

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    So, based on what you have said below, it makes sense for you to vote for the person who would be most supportive of the Viper and its future iterations because that person, in essence, supports "Viper guys" and "Viper stuff". That would be Romney.

     
  16. DEADEYE

    DEADEYE Viper Owner

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    I agree, when the GTS was in production it was the king of the streets. When you drove it, everyone knew it too.
     
  17. black mamba1

    black mamba1 Enthusiast

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    But it makes more sense to support a guy who wont wreck the economy by giving billion dollar corporations billion dollar tax cuts for sending thier factories over seas costing precious jobs here in America. Nor does it make sense to support a guy that removes regulations so Wall Street can play Russian Roulette with our economy, so a few Ivy Leaguers make hundreds of millions off derivatives while sinkiing cities, banks, the housing industry and all its supporting industries...and that eventually reached GM and Chrysler...causing Chrysler to cancel our beloved Viper.

    See...I would much rather support the President that actually killed Bin Laden, pulled the economy back from a Depression, and has stabilized things to the point where we can now go out and buy a Gen 5 in a few months....whereas your guys wanted to let GM and Chrysler simply sink into oblivion and didnt support the corporate bailout. Remember, McCain said in August of 07, "the economy is just fine", then went on to pick Mindy from Mork and Mindy as his running mate, then cancelled his campaign to focus on the economy that was "just fine". Thank god we got a team in there with some sense and who didnt brag on being able to "see Russia from her backyard" as proof of her foreign policy experience!

    LOL....I cant believe I let you get me started again!:nono:
     
  18. Bobpantax

    Bobpantax Enthusiast

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    You are such an easy mark. It's always been fun mi amigo.
     
  19. viperdrummer

    viperdrummer Enthusiast

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    IMO, forget about numbers. Everyone makes fast cars now. In 92 Viper made an insane splash based on looks and power, and they carried that through Gen2, perhaps the high water mark for design. Dodge kept making power but lost its way in the design dept. after Gen 2.

    For Gen. 5 SRT needs a really stunning car that will not sit on dealer lots like they last few years . ( I did my part with 3 Gen4s) it needs to be a car that rich guys like Me and not bobpantax will buy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2012
  20. Roadtrip

    Roadtrip Enthusiast

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    I agree with "I bin ther before" in his rawness statement.

    I have, and have had many cars... The first question most people ask me is what my favorite car is (always assuming it's the most expensive). But, here is where I am stumped. I love everyone of them for different reasons and oddly enough, I grab the keys to the Viper most often. It's actually worth the least in my collection.

    It's a looker, it sounds like a vacuum cleaner on steroids and I don't see one on every corner. It's impractical enough to turn off most corvette owners, yet practical enough for a car lover like myself to drive everyday (that its not raining :D). When I bought the '93 12 years ago, I bought it because I wanted "the" Cobra of the 90's... When I bought my '04, it was because I wanted to drive it everyday (including the winter), yet it was still very raw.

    Frankly I can't wait for the Gen V. It will likely be very refined but raw at heart, in the sense that every safety feature and DOT reg shoved down our throats today will somehow not be noticeable and instead, it will still seem like an extension of "all of our" wild sides. This is a car that cannot drive itself like many on the road today, it will still be impractical enough to turn away most and perfect for the real die hard car lovers who want to relive the past memories of hard core racers of the 60's.

     
  21. jdeft1

    jdeft1 Enthusiast

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    Great post. Now let's see the 'vette record runs......
     
  22. Silver04

    Silver04 Enthusiast

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    I'm new but welcome back! Come on over to the Politics area - we have lotsa fun there, as you can imagine!

    How dare you ask a question re: Viper performance...just kidding! :D I think you asked a great ? and will be interested in seeing the responses as I have pondered the same thing as well.

    Will you be at VOI?
     
  23. kennyhemi

    kennyhemi Enthusiast

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    ditto +1 Or it won't matter how good the Gen V is going be if you can't afford one, because we will soon be handing over more $$ and more$$ in taxes among other things and watch as our country sinks!
     
  24. Paul Hawker

    Paul Hawker Enthusiast

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    For me it has always been about the total "Viper Ownership Experience".

    I have driven most of the other ultra high performance cars, and truthfully, every time I called upon them for their ultimate performance, I thought more about how much it was going to cost me in maintenance or mileage expenses than enjoying the ride.

    Putting miles on the other exotics cost a fortune in depreciation. Everytime you use launch control, you just know parts are being stretched to the limit.

    With my Vipers I never even think twice about dropping the hammer, or diving into the next corner. Brakes and clutches seem to last forever, and cost pennies to replace compared to the other guys.

    Viper fuel economy is double some of the other guys as you do not need to rev the heck out of them to get into the power band.

    Step on the throttle coming out of a corner in most of those other cars results in your power being chopped and you are dead in the water until the computer doles out a bit of power.

    The Viper is backed up with one of the highest performance national and regional clubs that allow us to interreact with other owners in fun, energenic events on local and national (or international) events.

    Vipers don't cost to much, and there are always some for sale at reasonable prices. Ford GT's cost more to buy used than new, as long as they are rarely driven.

    I still get that "warm feeling running up my leg" everytime I hit the starter button, and often find me taking one last look at my Viper sitting in the garage before retiring for the evening.

    Vipers do not have that "arm and a leg" maintenance feeling when you take it out Just for fun. Every time I shift a Lambo e-shift I get the feeling that there are only so many shifts it it before it needs to go into the shop. When lagging around parking lots I always got the feeling the transmission was being abused,and the engine cooling fans kept cycling on an off, and with an unpleasant sound.

    For me, Viper still gives the best driving experience. I feel totally connected with the machinery, and everything feels very robust, and a little old school. No artificial sound is pumped into the cabin to make me feel good about the car. The Vipers do that naturally by themself, while still being true.

    This is the Viperness that runs deep, and though each and every generation Viper. This is what brings me back to Viper whenever I stray into other exoticia.

    Welcome back, and please lose the politics. It goes on forever and foments hatred. The times I spend with Viper brings me great joy. Arguing that my evil man is better than your evil man taints the joy.
     
  25. crazyspeed

    crazyspeed Enthusiast

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    " The Viper was the surprise of the day at Grattan because it was far easier to drive and handle on the track than expected."

    " Once on the track, though, we found the Viper to be as friendly as a yellow Lab..obedient, eager to please..and it would do what you told it to, without fail"

    "Surprisingly easy to drive around the track and very forgivable as the car rotates"

    "...given the choice between the two of them on the track, all of us preferred the Viper . We scored the Viper's handling a 10 out of 10 and gave the Z06 a 6"

    (the above quotes are from the Car and Driver Dec. 2005 comparo 2006 Viper 505 hp base coupe ...not Gen IV ACR)

    NOTE : all the above references contain the words " on the track"

    So...this begs the question for GEN V....how many buyers are going to the track with a $128K limited use toy?

    Or, conversely...Can SRT make the new Gen V feel like a Boxster on the street.. ( or make the Gen V feel on the street like a 06 Viper coupe feels like on the track?)
     
  26. Bobpantax

    Bobpantax Enthusiast

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    The new Viper will be unchallenged on any road course anywhere in the world. You can take the foregoing statement to the bank. As for who would "track it" ( meaning a road course I presume), many Ferrari and Porsche owners whose cars cost far more than a Viper track their cars ;and, more than a few of them, once they see and learn about the new Viper will buy one.

     
  27. purplesnake

    purplesnake Viper Owner

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    Wow...I just got goosebumps! As I read this post, line by line, I found myself saying yes!yes!yes! like Rodney Dangerfield in "Back to School".:headbang:
     
  28. PDCjonny

    PDCjonny Enthusiast

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    With no aero to plant it down it had better not come in at 650-675 HP cause it won't beat the current champ.
    Let's not forget the ACR hung 7 seconds on the ZR1 at 640 HP.
     
  29. AbsolutHank

    AbsolutHank Enthusiast

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    Very well put Paul...the entire paragraph and the bold sentence!
     
  30. Bobpantax

    Bobpantax Enthusiast

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    I stick by my statement. The toy may not show it well but the front fascia has changed a bit and, together with the built in rear spoiler, will produce significant down force. How much? I do not know. I also assume that the suspension will be significantly improved and the new tires will be up to the job.

     

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