Viper done blowed up!! Help!!!

[aries]

Well this is a hell of a first post. I have a 2006 SRT Coupe with a Novi and Vec 3 on it. It was installed by the previous owner at ART (American Racing Technology). Well, the long and short of it is the car starved for fuel and cyliders 4 and 8 pistons swelled and struck the plugs and valves. I spoke with Dave at ART and he said because the the car has an extra fuel pump in the fuel tank that can't sit in the sump, if you drive the car with less than 1/4 tank it can starve the motor and cause detonation and then kablammooo!!!!

So the first word of advice, if you have a similar setup make sure to keep more than a 1/4 tank it.

Second, I need some advice on replacement pistons, rods, ect ect. I was thinking of going with J&E pistons with Manley or Carrillo rods, ARP mainbolts and studs and Head Studs.

I was thinking of going with T&D roller rockers and upgraded pushrods. Is that beneficial with a supercharged motor? What pushrods are available for the SRT10?

 

[Cop Magnet]

Sorry to hear. I'm not sure if your explanation is exactly as likely as some other possibilities (e.g., cast piston failure or valve float), but either way I assume your motor's blown. Whatever you do, go with a reliable builder. There are many on this site.

 

[lankhoss]

Sorry to hear that about your engine.

Is your title in reference to the old prank calls from the guy in Maynardville, TN in the early 80's??

 

[aries]

Sorry to hear that about your engine.

Is your title in reference to the old prank calls from the guy in Maynardville, TN in the early 80's??

Not sure, I don't know who those guys are but I know I've heard that saying somewhere. lol

 

[dans69ss]

Is your '06 a Copperhead?

 

[aries]

Is your '06 a Copperhead?

No it's black with silver stripes. I have it at AR Fabrication in Winchester VA and they're doing the work. I'm just trying to decide how far I want to go as far as building it.

 

[TexasSnake]

Well this is a hell of a first post. I have a 2006 SRT Coupe with a Novi and Vec 3 on it. It was installed by the previous owner at ART (American Racing Technology). Well, the long and short of it is the car starved for fuel and cyliders 4 and 8 pistons swelled and struck the plugs and valves. I spoke with Dave at ART and he said because the the car has an extra fuel pump in the fuel tank that can't sit in the sump, if you drive the car with less than 1/4 tank it can starve the motor and cause detonation and then kablammooo!!!!

So the first word of advice, if you have a similar setup make sure to keep more than a 1/4 tank it.

Second, I need some advice on replacement pistons, rods, ect ect. I was thinking of going with J&E pistons with Manley or Carrillo rods, ARP mainbolts and studs and Head Studs.

I was thinking of going with T&D roller rockers and upgraded pushrods. Is that beneficial with a supercharged motor? What pushrods are available for the SRT10?

I had a detonation problem from not getting enough fuel and I thought the pistons hit the spark plugs because they were bent when I removed them. This was not the case however, they had melted. I did crack 2 pistons and went with CP forged pistons and Oliver rods. I had larger injectors installed (60lb) and some other goodies while they were in there. No problems since, but good luck because I know the bad feeling.

 

[aries]

I had a detonation problem from not getting enough fuel and I thought the pistons hit the spark plugs because they were bent when I removed them. This was not the case however, they had melted. I did crack 2 pistons and went with CP forged pistons and Oliver rods. I had larger injectors installed (60lb) and some other goodies while they were in there. No problems since, but good luck because I know the bad feeling.

Wow, I hope you're right, however I only have 124 in cylinder 8 all the others are between 177-184. From talking to Dave at ART it already has 65lb injectors along with a 2nd fuel pump and Vec 3. I still plan on going with a forged piston and upgraded rods. Not sure if it's worth going with T&D Roller Rockers or not.

 

[plumcrazy]

DLM doesn't want me boosting if the car is under 1/2 a tank......just to be safe.

 

[aries]

DLM doesn't want me boosting if the car is under 1/2 a tank......just to be safe.

That info would have been soooo useful about 2 weeks ago!!!!!

 

[RTTTTed]

Unfortunately the half full tank before WOT should have been obvious. Gas is a liquid. After stating that it should be mentioned that Most vipers have the fuel guage calibrated to read E at 1/4 tank for the protection of the in-tank fuel pump. 4 gl left in tank when it reads eampty.

I have Ross forged pistons in my engine with 1.7 rockers, 708 cam, and I've recently ported the heads. Big difference for all of the mods.

Call Macedo at M2 if your 'fabricator' doesn't know how to do it and doesn't have any "connections" to get parts at a deal.

Ted

 

[2MANYTOYS]

DLM doesn't want me boosting if the car is under 1/2 a tank......just to be safe.

Phil what fuel system do you have???

 

[aries]

Unfortunately the half full tank before WOT should have been obvious. Gas is a liquid. After stating that it should be mentioned that Most vipers have the fuel guage calibrated to read E at 1/4 tank for the protection of the in-tank fuel pump. 4 gl left in tank when it reads eampty.

I have Ross forged pistons in my engine with 1.7 rockers, 708 cam, and I've recently ported the heads. Big difference for all of the mods.

Call Macedo at M2 if your 'fabricator' doesn't know how to do it and doesn't have any "connections" to get parts at a deal.

Ted

Thanks for the info Ted .

 

[TexasSnake]

Wow, I hope you're right, however I only have 124 in cylinder 8 all the others are between 177-184. From talking to Dave at ART it already has 65lb injectors along with a 2nd fuel pump and Vec 3. I still plan on going with a forged piston and upgraded rods. Not sure if it's worth going with T&D Roller Rockers or not.

I thought about going with the T&D Roller Rockers while it was in there but decided against it after talking to two reputable Viper specialists. Stock is reliable...you're basically just paying for less friction on the camshaft and there's a lot more you can do with the money in respect to hp or even lower end responsiveness(gears). If budget is no issue then go for it...I just decided it wasn't the biggest bang I could get for my buck.

 

[eucharistos]

Most vipers have the fuel guage calibrated to read E at 1/4 tank for the protection of the in-tank fuel pump. 4 gl left in tank when it reads eampty.

thanks for the good trivia, i fill based on miles not fuel gauge

 

[Camfab]

A fuel system designed like that is seriously flawed. I can't believe that someone would design such a poor system for such an expensive car. Don't floor the car if it has less than a 1/4 tank! Instead of worrying about what pistons and rods to run, I'd have a proper fuel system engineered.

 

[Bobpantax]

I don't think I buy into the theory being espoused for the failure. There are probably in excess of 100 2006 SRT 10s with a stock Paxton kit running around. I have had mine for 13,000 miles. I have driven with the fuel warning light lit on two occasions with no problem. I bet that many others have also. Your car evidently is not just a stock kit installation since you mentioned that it has a Vec III and the stock kit does not come with same. Do you have a dynamometer graph from before the "blow up" that also shows your air/fuel ratio? If so, please post it. Also, what were the circumstances surrounding the "blow up"? What was the temperature that day? Were you at the track? What happened? It does not sound like it was as simple as too little fuel in your tank because the stock kit handles that situation. So something must have been altered to reduce the efficiency and reliability of the system. Or, in the alternative, your fuel system may not have been sufficiently enhanced to handle whatever else was done. In any event I am skeptical of the explanation being offered for the failure. You might want to give Dan Cragin a call at DC Performance to discuss the matter. They are a sponsor.

 

[RTTTTed]

A fuel system designed like that is seriously flawed. I can't believe that someone would design such a poor system for such an expensive car. Don't floor the car if it has less than a 1/4 tank! Instead of worrying about what pistons and rods to run, I'd have a proper fuel system engineered.

It is a properly engineered system. Now some GMs are famous for burning out fuel pumps (such as S10s). Modern fuel pumps are in the fuel tank for COOLING. When the fuel tank runs low the fuel pump becomes uncovered. Same as all other modern fuel systems. Viper fuel pumps don't burn out and n/a engines don't melt pistons when they run out of fuel. Any driver/owner of a Forced Induction engine should know that engine damage occurs if run out of fuel at throttle.

2 fuel pumps in the tank? The Paxton kit comes with two tiny fuel pumps for the engine compartment and it's more likely that they failed? I mean with the wiring, pumps and fuel lines exposed? I think perhaps the owner misunderstood?

I have a big power supercharger and I have an upgraded fuel pump in the tank. Not 2 fuel pumps just one monster pump.

Ted

 

[TexasSnake]

Another factor that can cause this is bad fuel or running low octane fuel WOT. Always make sure to use 93 octane or better in s/c cars.

 

[Viper Specialty]

I think you guys are misunderstanding:

1. The OEM fuel system is not plauged by this issue at tank level. The fuel pump surge canister in the tank is dual stage, one stage pumps to the engine, the other fills the canister- which keeps it filled in all cases.

2. As a result, the Paxton system is not plauged by this issue, as the canister is untouched. The paxton system does however suffer from "blood from a stone" syndrome, and will be unable to pump fuel past the fuel supply ability of the OEM pump at lower head pressures, which is roughly 800 RWHP. The extra in-line pumps just help lower head pressure at the tank, and increase it later on for referencing, everything else remains the same.

3. When you alter the canister, such as adding another pump [depending on how its done], or replacing it with a drop-in canister, you will lose your surge function. This is where the problems start. It is very cheap and easy to just "drop in" new pumps, but most everyone forgets how important that canister surge function is! On the other hand, a properly designed fuel system with stock-like surge capability is VERY expensive and time consuming, and most people wouldnt pay it.

4. In any case, these problems are not going to go away until more shops revise their thinking on this approach. We have changed everything about these fuel systems and can give plenty of ideas, but dont expect any of the real solutions to be cheap or easy. In all cases, you MUST retain the OEM surge canister and OEM pump in their place, functioning at a tank level at least- they are the heart of the system. Once they go, you will have a surge issue at low fuel levels.

 

[Bobpantax]

I think you guys are misunderstanding:

1. The OEM fuel system is not plauged by this issue at tank level. The fuel pump surge canister in the tank is dual stage, one stage pumps to the engine, the other fills the canister- which keeps it filled in all cases.

2. As a result, the Paxton system is not plauged by this issue, as the canister is untouched. The paxton system does however suffer from "blood from a stone" syndrome, and will be unable to pump fuel past the fuel supply ability of the OEM pump at lower head pressures, which is roughly 800 RWHP. The extra in-line pumps just help lower head pressure at the tank, and increase it later on for referencing, everything else remains the same.

3. When you alter the canister, such as adding another pump [depending on how its done], or replacing it with a drop-in canister, you will lose your surge function. This is where the problems start. It is very cheap and easy to just "drop in" new pumps, but most everyone forgets how important that canister surge function is! On the other hand, a properly designed fuel system with stock-like surge capability is VERY expensive and time consuming, and most people wouldnt pay it.

4. In any case, these problems are not going to go away until more shops revise their thinking on this approach. We have changed everything about these fuel systems and can give plenty of ideas, but dont expect any of the real solutions to be cheap or easy. In all cases, you MUST retain the OEM surge canister and OEM pump in their place, functioning at a tank level at least- they are the heart of the system. Once they go, you will have a surge issue at low fuel levels.

Thanks for the data Dan. Above I said:

So something must have been altered to reduce the efficiency and reliability of the system.

You appear to be confirming that assertion and explaining what may have been done wrong. If that is the case, shouldn't the tuner who altered the canister surge function, if that in fact occurred, pay for the engine rebuild? Sounds like negligence to me.

 

[aries]

Ok, this is what I know about the car, remember I've only had the car for 2 months and am the second owner. The car came from Woodhouse Dodge where the Paxton system was installed. It then was taken to ART (American Racing Technology) where they installed their "fuel system upgrade", which according to Dave from ART, consists of a second fuel pump, 65lb injectors and a VEC 3. I don't know why they took out the system that comes with the Paxton kit and went with this different set up. Maybe someone could explain why someone would do that? Also, the car dynoed on their dyno at 690rwhp.

 

[Bobpantax]

It sounds like they should have left the car alone. If the canister surge function was eliminated in the alleged fuel system "upgrade", based on what Dan Lesser said above, I think they owe you an engine. The 690 RWHP is on the high side for a stock kit. Your also may have had a tune that was too lean. That is why I asked you to post a dyno sheet showing your air fuel ratio. If you combine the fuel system problem with a lean tune, things go "boom" pretty fast.

 

[aries]

It sounds like they should have left the car alone. If the canister surge function was eliminated in the alleged fuel system "upgrade", based on what Dan Lesser said above, I think they owe you an engine. The 690 RWHP is on the high side for a stock kit. Your also may have had a tune that was too lean. That is why I asked you to post a dyno sheet showing your air fuel ratio. If you combine the fuel system problem with a lean tune, things go "boom" pretty fast.

I do have a dyno graph but I don't have a scanner so I can't post it. The damage was due to a sudden fuel starvation and didn't happen gradually. The fact that Dave at ART knew what cylinders were damaged before I told him tells me what he said is most likley what happened.

 

[Bobpantax]

I do have a dyno graph but I don't have a scanner so I can't post it. The damage was due to a sudden fuel starvation and didn't happen gradually. The fact that Dave at ART knew what cylinders were damaged before I told him tells me what he said is most likley what happened.

I think that it indicates that he has seen the problem before and failed to warn you about it before it happened.

 

[aries]

I think that it indicates that he has seen the problem before and failed to warn you about it before it happened.

Exactly, but unfortunatley since I wasnt the one that had the work done by ART, I had no idea.

 

[Bobpantax]

When was the work done? Did they warrant it? If so, perhaps the warranty transferred with the car when you bought it.

 

[SquadX]

Good luck with this and as Bobpantax is stating, sounds like someone needs to pay for your engine rebuild.

 

[Camfab]

It is a properly engineered system. Now some GMs are famous for burning out fuel pumps (such as S10s). Modern fuel pumps are in the fuel tank for COOLING. When the fuel tank runs low the fuel pump becomes uncovered. Same as all other modern fuel systems. Viper fuel pumps don't burn out and n/a engines don't melt pistons when they run out of fuel. Any driver/owner of a Forced Induction engine should know that engine damage occurs if run out of fuel at throttle.

2 fuel pumps in the tank? The Paxton kit comes with two tiny fuel pumps for the engine compartment and it's more likely that they failed? I mean with the wiring, pumps and fuel lines exposed? I think perhaps the owner misunderstood?

I have a big power supercharger and I have an upgraded fuel pump in the tank. Not 2 fuel pumps just one monster pump.

Ted

Ted, like I said, he has a poorly designed fuel system. This is not an issue regarding fuel pump failure, but an improperly designed SYSTEM that will cause fuel starvation at lower fuel levels.

 

[aries]

Ted, like I said, he has a poorly designed fuel system. This is not an issue regarding fuel pump failure, but an improperly designed SYSTEM that will cause fuel starvation at lower fuel levels.

Any suggestions on which way to go to remedy this?