12/05 Car & Driver & Motor Trend........DC Please......Read

SnakeBitten

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It seems to me that the variation in times are not hard to figure out....I highly doubt that all the Magazines had the same Z06 to test...Different cars perform differently...Even the same car can perform differently on the same day...Also there is the issue of test venue..Each mag tests at a different facility etc....The asphault where they ran the 3.4 0-60 in the Z06 must have been way better than the one they got the 4.3 0-60 run....Also maybe the 3.4 0-60 run was from a more broken in engine than the others...Many many variables....

Bottomline is the SRTC is not only way slower than the Vette, it cant even reach, much less better, the SRT10's best numbers...So its not even the quickest Viper..Dont be mad at the magazines. Even if they used Schumacher and got better times from the Viper in fairness he would have to drive the Vette too. You've seen the Vette numbers from mag drivers..Id imagine the Vette numbers would improve even more with a world class driver. Just gotta accept that it was a very half-azzed effort by DC especially when they knew way in advance what the Z06 specs were.
 

Racer Robbie

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fact #1 we got our ass kicked.
fact #2 do let it happen
fact # 3 Lutz sent pics and spects to dc when they first started work on the z06

Be humble and go out and enjoy your car
 

STUGOTS

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well then its their own f*ck up then and they have no one to blame but them selves.

To be 100% honest I think the cars GM sent to the tests were a little "done up" and if all these times are true for the Viper then compared to the SRT 10 the Coupe is detuned because it can't even match the SRT 10's performance.
 

Racer Robbie

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and we all look like jerks. i have to listen to my stupid brother in law who just bought a new z06. Just to shut him up I said lets both of us drive down to Starbucks. I sent first and the croud there went crazy over the viper. As I talked with these Viper fans he drove in and parked next to me. No one even noticed. Hev was pissed as hell.
 

STUGOTS

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and we all look like jerks. i have to listen to my stupid brother in law who just bought a new z06. Just to shut him up I said lets both of us drive down to Starbucks. I sent first and the croud there went crazy over the viper. As I talked with these Viper fans he drove in and parked next to me. No one even noticed. Hev was pissed as hell.

and that will happen EVERYTIME even with a 13 year old snake LMAO
 

kverges

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If you want to pose, then the Viper is fine. No offense, but I do not buy sports cars to impress people at Starbucks.

I actually thought that DC lost interest in 2003 when I bought my SRT, discovered the oil starvation problem and was told "don't take it on track." The Z06 is dry sump and Dave Hill endorses occasional use on track.

DC's halo brand is AMG. I hope DC builds a better Viper, but I have serious doubts, as I don't think even the sump is fixed in the new SRT Coupe. And get ready, there is a new Z06 slated for MY 2008 that will be a quantum leap beyond every production car short of the Bugatti and maybe a Zonda or the turbo Saleen; maybe. And I mean every. Power to weight may go to the Z06 overall.

My next sports car will be the Z06, as I prize performance over subjectives like "rarity" and "wow" factor. Also, if I can't take it on track, I don't want it.

And I am no Chevy lover - I have owned 5 Vipers and still love my 2001 GTS. But Chevy has the crown for now a nd kudos. May it improve the breed overall.
 

SnakeBitten

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If you want to pose, then the Viper is fine. No offense, but I do not buy sports cars to impress people at Starbucks.

I actually thought that DC lost interest in 2003 when I bought my SRT, discovered the oil starvation problem and was told "don't take it on track." The Z06 is dry sump and Dave Hill endorses occasional use on track.

DC's halo brand is AMG. I hope DC builds a better Viper, but I have serious doubts, as I don't think even the sump is fixed in the new SRT Coupe. And get ready, there is a new Z06 slated for MY 2008 that will be a quantum leap beyond every production car short of the Bugatti and maybe a Zonda or the turbo Saleen; maybe. And I mean every. Power to weight may go to the Z06 overall.

My next sports car will be the Z06, as I prize performance over subjectives like "rarity" and "wow" factor. Also, if I can't take it on track, I don't want it.

And I am no Chevy lover - I have owned 5 Vipers and still love my 2001 GTS. But Chevy has the crown for now a nd kudos. May it improve the breed overall.

:2tu:
 

LW VIPER

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heck there are motorcycles out there that will eat the viper gt40 and the zo6 for lunch,how many are going to buy one .

I did Suzuki GSXR 1000 K3 Sold it. Sold the Vette. Have the Viper
Glad for the Vette that the Z06 is so great.

Drove the Viper yesterday. Still glad to have the Viper.
 

Racer Robbie

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My other brother in law works for GM and worked on the ZS06 project. Enough said, don't ask for names.

Kevrges: I really do not understand your post and I quote: "If you want to pose, then the Viper is fine. No offense, but I do not buy sports cars to impress people at Starbucks." We drove both of our cars down to Starbucks for some coffee and that is how it played out. On the way back we swapped cars. The Z06 is a hell of a ride.

Maybe you would have had us walk the 10 miles to Starbucks so we would not try to impress anyone.
 

Lee00blacksilverGTS

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Probably an urban legend at GM. I makes no sense for Lutz to tip off SRT, And a few of us were with some of the SRT engineers at the Detroit Auto Show and they were surprised at the weight, horsepower and price of the Z, so they certainly had not been tipped off to the specs.
 

xanadu

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Is it really fair to compare a new generation Vette Z06 with an old generation Viper (so to speak)?

Maybe the big shock is that GM took a good while to finally catch up with the Viper, but they did. Now so many are pretty much unfairly trying to compare this newest generation 2006 Vette against a Viper whose generation was actually a 2003 release (and this goes for the Coupe too as it still holds 90% of the SRT-10 in it).

If GM and DC were to release both models at the same time, then it would be much more a fair comparison, but that didn't happen. It will be interesting to see now if DC steps up the performance to match or better the Z06 in it next generation Viper.

I would expect the following Z06 generation to also follow that next generation Viper with something better again. It might just be a cycle back and forth now that GM has caught up. Right?
 

STUGOTS

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Is it really fair to compare a new generation Vette Z06 with an old generation Viper (so to speak)?

Maybe the big shock is that GM took a good while to finally catch up with the Viper, but they did. Now so many are pretty much unfairly trying to compare this newest generation 2006 Vette against a Viper whose generation was actually a 2003 release (and this goes for the Coupe too as it still holds 90% of the SRT-10 in it).

If GM and DC were to release both models at the same time, then it would be much more a fair comparison, but that didn't happen. It will be interesting to see now if DC steps up the performance to match or better the Z06 in it next generation Viper.

I would expect the following Z06 generation to also follow that next generation Viper with something better again. It might just be a cycle back and forth now that GM has caught up. Right?


thats a pretty good point and I never thought of that.
 

RichieSRT10

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We all win when the manufacturers try to outdo each other. Hopefully there lil horsepower and bragging rights war that will benefit both Vettes and Vipers. Its our turn to fire back. Hope to hear some rumbling in Germany. Maybe AMG wants a piece of this action. They have done wonders with the Benz. Imagine what they can do with our snake.
 

don527

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Your 'reason' is because the Viper is a few years older and that makes it an unfair comparo? OMG... I think we'd be all reasonable people here regardless of our love for one car over another but doesn't that sound kinda silly?

The C6 coupe has already been out a little bit and the Z is their latest creation... same C6 generation but they dont share a lot of parts with the coupe and vert... 427 LS7, ALUMINUM FRAME, magnesium roof structure, CF bodywork, etc.

The Viper may be a couple of years older but the coupe is their latest creation and DC could have done anything they wanted with it (like new frame or engine upgrade, suspension, etc).

So the Gen3 is long in the tooth after 3 years? You make it sound like the war is over until Gen4 comes out.

IMO, there's just too much thought about about how and why when I think it simply comes down to this...

It's the best that GM has to offer RIGHT NOW against the best DC has to offer RIGHT NOW and the numbers point in favor to the Z this time around.

I guess it just takes time but instead of coming up with reasons, I would think it'd be better to discuss what kind of things DC has up their sleeve or do mad posting of what you want to see in the next update to counter.

It's good for both camps.

don

Is it really fair to compare a new generation Vette Z06 with an old generation Viper (so to speak)?

Maybe the big shock is that GM took a good while to finally catch up with the Viper, but they did. Now so many are pretty much unfairly trying to compare this newest generation 2006 Vette against a Viper whose generation was actually a 2003 release (and this goes for the Coupe too as it still holds 90% of the SRT-10 in it).

If GM and DC were to release both models at the same time, then it would be much more a fair comparison, but that didn't happen. It will be interesting to see now if DC steps up the performance to match or better the Z06 in it next generation Viper.

I would expect the following Z06 generation to also follow that next generation Viper with something better again. It might just be a cycle back and forth now that GM has caught up. Right?


thats a pretty good point and I never thought of that.
 

xanadu

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Your 'reason' is because the Viper is a few years older and that makes it an unfair comparo? OMG... We're all reasonable people regardless of our love for one car over another but doesn't that sound kinda silly?

The C6 coupe has already been out a little bit and the Z is their latest creation... same C6 generation but they dont share a lot of parts with the coupe and vert... 427 LS7, ALUMINUM FRAME, magnesium roof structure, CF bodywork, etc.

The Viper may be a couple of years older but the coupe is their latest creation and DC could have done anything they wanted with it (like new frame or engine upgrade, suspension, etc).

So the Gen3 is long in the tooth after 3 years? You make it sound like the war is over until Gen4 comes out.

IMO, there's just too much thought about about how and why when I think it simply comes down to this...

It's the best that GM has to offer RIGHT NOW against the best DC has to offer RIGHT NOW and the numbers point in favor to the Z this time around.

I guess it just takes time but instead of coming up with reasons, I would think it'd be better to discuss what kind of things DC has up their sleeve or do mad posting of what you want to see in the next update to counter.

It's good for both camps.

don

Don, think about it for a second. The Gen 3 Viper has been in existance probably since at least 2001. It's not like DC just waived a magic wand and it appeared in 2003. Have you been watching too much Harry Potter??? Considering that the Gen 3 was being created (at least) 2 or 3 years before it was released, that means that GM has had at least 5 years to prepare its following generation Z06 Vette, now this latest generation, to finally be caught up with the Viper. And that's obviously what they did.

Now, as far the the latest Viper Coupe, it is based on the current generation 3 Viper, or the SRT-10. It is generally the same time frame to come out with a newer generation vehicle of ANY kind from ANY manufacturer, as people generally have in a car loan, being typically 5 or 6 years now for the average American. The latest Viper, the Coupe, is not meant to be a new generation that's been reworked with a new engine design and all . . . it's simply an SRT-10 "Coupe" with different wheels.

Car makers will make small changes to its current generation vehicles from year to year, as they see neccessary in providing better reliability, without hopefully needing to go through any recalls. But don't look at DC as having made this major letdown with the Coupe by comparing it with this new Z06.

Since the Coupe was based on the current Generation Viper / SRT-10, [it] should have been introduced much sooner than it was, or it should not have been introduced at all. Most likely, it will have a life of 2 or 3 years instead of the average 5 or 6, but it will not be around of course when the next generation Viper comes out, which will probably be in another 2 or 3 more years. Basically, all DC will loose in the Coupe design costs for a short run period, is the body, since pretty much everything else is SRT-10.

Bottom line, GM probably has known about the SRT-10 since at least 2001 . . . or 2002 at the absolute very latest. Heck, the SRT-10 could have been on the design boards since 2000 even, since it can take a good amount of time in designing a new model from ground up. GM could have decided BEFORE the SRT-10 was even released that its 05/06 generation Z06 would be better than what DC was working to put out in 2003. You know since the day the SRT-10 came out, that GM has had their design specialists pouring over every inch of the SRT-10 in their secret warehouse, and most likely a few other higher end exotics along with it too. Now, DC we can speculate has a new Z06, and they have about 2 more years, at best, to come up with something better. They will need to work diligently if they are to make it and have it ready to be a 2007 product, and I don't see that happening as it would seem to be too short a generation period for the SRT-10. My guess is a new generation Viper in 2008 which will be well above both the SRT-10 and this newest generation Z06 Vette.

And if like another poster mentioned before . . . if DC had AMG get involved . . . sorry, I can't imagine that. Something like that would surely cause GM to shamefully close the book on the Vette and end its history (joking of course, but wow, and AMG'd Viper . . . that could be one very serious supercar.)

ps, "the war is over" until the new generation Viper comes out, as I've explained above.
 

xanadu

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Another thing which I think hurts DC, and gives huge leaps and bounds to GM, is the amount of money and research they pour into the Vette racing program. Look at the success GM has in the endurance races such as Le Mans. If DC were involved in a racing program just half of what GM does with the Vette, I'm sure they would be quicker at producing higher performance and it would also possibly carry over to the aftermarket parts makers too.

With 2007 looming so soon now, it's just not going to be enough time . . . I think anyway . . . for DC to redesign a generation 4 Viper that is better than this new Z06 and still keep it below $100k. I suspect they will need a few months of throwing ideas around as they study the Z06. Then another couple of months in researching what materials would cost them. Then once into design, there's another several months, and once that's completed the way they want it, its time to redesign the production warehouses and tooling to make the new generation . . . dang, even 2008 seems too soon now.

Would it also be safe to say that DC needs a bigger profit margin on the Viper than GM with the Vette? Even though GM has anounced some terrible profit losses this year, I think they do carry a stronger product line in sales & profit margins through the overall line.
 

Racer Robbie

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xanadu is so right here. As he said GM knew about the SRT back in 2001, does not the same rule hold true that DC knew about the Z06 when they started working on the Z06? There are very few secrets in Detroit. People leave one company and go work for others, taking with them imformation of what is in the works at the company they left behind.

Lee00, Saying, "Probably an urban legend at GM. I makes no sense for Lutz to tip off SRT, And a few of us were with some of the SRT engineers at the Detroit Auto Show and they were surprised at the weight, horsepower and price of the Z, so they certainly had not been tipped off to the specs." Do you really think DC would do otherwise? What, you think they would admit they had dropped the ball? Hell they should have never brought the coupe to market if it was going to be slower than the roadster. They brought this upon themselves and have onl;y themselves to blame.

PS: You do not have to agree with me but you could be polite and not bash my family, have a little respect.

Now everyone, lets go drive our cars and enjoy the reason we bought them in the first place. The Z06 is one hell of a car at a great price. I would buy one in a minute.
 

xanadu

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I never said GM knew about the SRT-10 in 2001; I said they probably knew about it in 2001 or at the latest 2002 . . . in my opinion(I could be wrong).

Is it possible that Bob Lutz knew about the DC plans of 500/500 back in 1998 before he left the company?

January 05, 2005
Lutz Biography
Robert A. Lutz
GM Vice Chairman, Product Development, and Chairman, GM North America

Robert A. Lutz was named General Motors vice chairman of product development on September 1, 2001, and on November 13, 2001, he was named chairman of GM North America. He served as president of GM Europe on an interim basis from March to June 2004.

Prior to rejoining GM as vice chairman, Lutz was chairman and chief executive officer of Exide Technologies. He served as chairman until his resignation on May 17, 2002, and as a member of Exide's board of directors until May 5, 2004.



Bob Lutz
Lutz joined Exide after a distinguished career with the former Chrysler Corporation from 1986 to 1998, where he reached the position of vice chairman. Lutz also served as president and chief operating officer, responsible for Chrysler's car and truck operations worldwide.

Lutz led all of Chrysler's automotive activities, including sales, marketing, product development, manufacturing, and procurement and supply. He began his service with Chrysler in 1986 as executive vice president and was shortly thereafter elected to the Chrysler Corporation board. His 12 years with the company are chronicled in his 1998 book, Guts: The Seven Laws of Business That Made Chrysler the World's Hottest Car Company. Guts was revised and updated in 2003 and retitled, Guts: 8 Laws of Business from One of the Most Innovative Business Leaders of our Time.

Before Chrysler, Lutz spent 12 years at Ford Motor Company, where his last position was executive vice president of truck operations. He also served as chairman of Ford of Europe and as executive vice president of Ford's international operations. From 1982 to 1986, Lutz was a member of Ford's board.

Lutz began his automotive career in September 1963 at GM, where he held a variety of senior positions in Europe until December 1971. For the next three years, he served as executive vice president of sales at BMW in Munich and as a member of that company's board of management.

He serves as chairman of The New Common School Foundation and as a trustee of the Barbara Ann Karmanos Cancer Institute. He is also a member of the board of trustees for the U.S. Marine Corps University Foundation and vice chairman of the board of trustees for the Marine Military Academy in Harlingen, Texas.

Lutz received his bachelor's degree in production management from the University of California-Berkeley in 1961, where he earned distinction as a Phi Beta Kappa. He received a master's degree in business administration, with highest honors, from the University of California-Berkeley in 1962. He received an honorary degree of doctor of management from Kettering University on June 21, 2003, and an honorary doctorate of law from Boston University in 1985.

He also served as a jet-attack aviator in the United States Marine Corps from 1954 to 1965 and attained the rank of captain. Lutz was born on February 12, 1932, in Zurich, Switzerland.
 

GR8_ASP

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I never said GM knew about the SRT-10 in 2001; I said they probably knew about it in 2001 or at the latest 2002 . . . in my opinion(I could be wrong).

Safe to say everyone knew in Jan 2002 when it was on display at the autoshow, with specs on a placard :)

Before that it was stated publicly at the VOI invitational in 2000 that it would have 500/500/500 (hp/tq/watts). So GM had a target level of power for a long time.

Rumors were abundant about the Z06 but many were untrue (like the 3 valve version which was in SAE papers). Not sure if GM ever publicly admitted info such as the Viper group provided 3 years before production. Seems like they have tighter lips, or at least this time.
 

Racer Robbie

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"His 12 years with the company are chronicled in his 1998 book, Guts: The Seven Laws of Business That Made Chrysler the World's Hottest Car Company. Guts was revised and updated in 2003 and retitled, Guts: 8 Laws of Business from One of the Most Innovative Business Leaders of our Time."

Guess I am going to pick up a copy and read this book. Should be as good as Lee Iacoco's book.
 
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