2001-2002 Anti-Lock brakes: just how good are they?

[Daddy Long Stroke]

I keep reading how "Bad" the GTS brakes are, and how "Good" the SRT-10 brakes are.
My question is, are the 2001-2002 anti-locks a world of difference from the earlier cars, or are they just the same brakes with a anti-lock devise on them?

Can anyone who has driven both please comment-
yes, I did a search!

Thanks!

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

01-02 are same brakes as earlier except with ABS.

SRT brakes are completely different.

 

[Dave's Big Brakes]

And I happen to have the SRT's on my Gen2

 

[Daddy Long Stroke]

So, still not good, just dont lock up in a panic situation?

Guess I'll have to take that item out of the equation! Those forged pistons are looking better all the time!

 

[Janni]

thye 01/02 brakes are significantly better than the non-ABS cars. They are not "just antilock" but take advantage of dynamic proportioning - i.e. making adjustments to the bias to get the most out of the brakes.

I think that the 01/02 Vipers get shorted on brake improvement recognition because everyone knew the cars were "at the end" of the style lifecycle - so the mags didn't test them and they went unnoticed.

Check out the Viper Days results of Ray Moore running a fairly stock GTS with ABS - and those folks that have gone from a non-ABS car to an ABS car gained a considerable advantage in lap times.

No - they are not as good at SRT brakes, but they are far better than STOCK non-ABS brakes.

 

[KenH]

The '01/'02's also have larger 43mm rear calipers (vs 36mm for earlier years). According to some posts of people that have upgraded their 36mm calipers to 40mm through a service offered by Tom on this board, the performance difference is pretty significant. Another advantage of the anti-lock brakes is to help prevent flat-spotting your tires.

On the other hand, if you think you want to go high boost, then the forged pistons are going to be the better deal.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Janni, why are they not as good as SRT brakes? Once you have a certain size caliper (and arguably it's the 38/42mm fronts and 43mm rears) you have enough brake to lock up each corner of the car. After that, you rely on the ABS to provide the dynamic proportioning. A bigger caliper on any corner (in theory) won't help anymore because it's already big enough and the ABS will just adjust the on-off cycling accordingly.

I can rationalize a better ABS algorithm or perhaps better heat tolerance (and this only because the calipers are physically larger?) but stuck on why SRT ABS is better braking than Gen 2 ABS. Thanks!

I see a "$$ spent per G-force gained" comparison coming...

 

[Lawrenzo]

Were there ever any 60-0 mph numbers published for our cars?

What about Dodge? Surely they provided a number.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Were there ever any 60-0 mph numbers published for our cars?

What about Dodge? Surely they provided a number.

The rags I found reported no difference in stopping distances. But you know those rags, Janni might be correct. Ray Moore is a helluva testament for ABS.

 

[Janni]

Tom,
While the brakes theoretical performance might be similar - based on conversations I had with Herb Helbig, and what I have felt to be true between the Gen II and the Gen III cars in terms of braking - is that the Gen III's overall suspension geometry is one of the variables that accounts for the STELLAR 60-0 braking performance. I certainly felt my 2003 was way more planted in all manuevers - including braking - than any GTS I have even been in. Now - I suspect that with suspension tuning on a 2001/2002 you could get close, there's still some differences in how "free" the suspension is - that's what Herb told me and that's what I felt in my cars......

 

[RedGTS]

Tom, I understand what you're saying, but it does seem that the reported 60-0 stopping distance of the SRT is significantly better than the ABS Gen. II cars. Are you saying that this is largely due to other differences (chassis, tires, etc.) than the brakes themselves?

On the Gen. II 60-0 question, I've seen non-ABS Gen. II's reported by the mags in the 135-140 range, and the '01-'02 cars more in the 120-125 range. IMO ABS does make a significant difference. The SRT has broken some of the mags records; I've seen it reported as low as 97 feet.

 

[ViperGTS]

I had a 99 without ABS and now own a 2002 with ABS.
Different worlds.

Especially, on WET roads!

Driving school test: SPEED = 72 km/h (for example), wet road.

2002 ABS car = 21 m until stop
non-ABS cars = 35 m until stop

Enough difference?

 

[99 R/T 10]

Converted to US specs.

21M=69ft
35M=114ft

I would say that it make a difference!

 

[GTS Bruce]

If I remember correctly a gen 2 abs car goes 60-0 in 106 ft.Not that far from the srt in 96ft. GTS Bruce

 

[DarcShadow]

ABS obviously helps your average/good driver but isn't it true that some one who is really skilled can get a non ABS car to stop faster then some one who just slams on the breaks and relys on the ABS? Seems to me the question isn't so much as the ABS vs non ABS but driver and supsension setup.

That being said, I did just read a post about how the Gen II brakes suffer from fade faster then the Gen III. Is that due mostly to improved cooling on the Gen III's or is there something else that prevents them from fading as quickly?

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

Ronnie, that was my question, and Janni's conversation with Herb Helwig seems to confirm it. It's not the "brakes" that are that much better, Herb says it's the parts attaching the tires to the road.

It's interesting in that it helps decide what you may want to do to improve braking - bigger calipers aren't always better, tire compound/age makes a difference, suspension tuning apparently helps a lot; it's all about finding the actual weak link in the chain.

DarcShadow, perhaps in a straight line a good driver can match an ABS system, but try it in a turn (autocross.) No driver can control each caliper independently; you'd need four feet and four master cylinders.

 

[VPRGTS]

Give me a break (pardon the pun). It's all in the ABS?

Actually, all you need is a (non existent) RSI motor.


Brakes just slow you down (1 part of the equation). All other things being equal, fast lap times are a result of high turn entry speed and high turn exit speed. This has to do with handling, being on the right line and having ability to get the car at or near it's limit.

That being said;

Stock 01/02 brakes provide more stopping force than earlier brakes due to the larger caliber on the rear, etc. The master cylinder is also different. The SRT has bigger/better everything including geometry as stated in the previous posts above.

01/02 brakes still **** and do not compare to aftermarket or SRT brakes.

But to the laymen, Viper brakes are awesome. I love the reaction of people after taking them for a ride on the track. The Viper is an awesome production car, period.

Truth is, none of us will reach the limit of the stock equipment (that includes motor, tires, brakes, etc.).

Problem with ABS is that there is no safety factor if you are simply relying on the ABS. You still have to be able to brake properly!

ABS can also be a negative on the track when you have an uneven surface, as can be the case in the braking zones at some tracks (turn 17 at Sebring and turn 1 at Mid America come to mind). The car tends to skip under braking in these cases as the ABS can activate prematurely (this = no brakes). I have also had this happen if you are using the curbing as you lift a wheel entering a turn.

A '00 and earlier car with aftermarket brakes and no ABS will outperform an '01/02 car with stock brakes and ABS. And don't forget, 01/02 cars have less HP.

A better driver can win in either car.

 

[Tom F&L GoR]

The stock 01/02 master cylinder is the same as the SRT master cylinder. This is why racecar's SRT brake conversion for the Gen 2 cars would not run out of pedal travel. It would be interesting to see his before/after performance data, because then you would have stepwise comparisons of Gen 1, Gen 2 ABS, Gen 2 ABS with SRT calipers, SRT ABS (effect of suspension.)

As hinted above, while it looks nice and racecar has done a very nice job in keeping costs low, I am curious how well it works. (Anyone in the Chuck Tator area that is doing this conversion, let me know and we'll suction cup the accelerometer to the windshield and measure.)

I'm still forcing the question of whether 01/02 brakes ****? 40mm rear calipers on a bone stock Gen 1 on street tires slows down at over 1.0 G's, SRT (data provided on the 40mm deceleration discussion) slowed at 1.2 G's, so Gen 2 with 43mm rears and ABS can't be "BS."

 

[Dave's Big Brakes]

That's why I have SRT's with 14" rotors on my Gen2, I finally have REAL brakes.
Why do you think DC finally upgraded the brakes on the SRT's, they got it right

Bigger is better, when it takes less force to stop, bigger rotors = less work, runs cooler, etc.

I wouldn't trade my brakes for anything, they just work great

 

[FlyBryViper]

Ray...is that Chuck behind you in your avatar?

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Ray...is that Chuck behind you in your avatar?

LOL. Nope, it's the best he could do.

 

[VPRGTS]

Chuck's right, that's not him, that picture was taken in the white run group.

That picture was taken at my second track event, Viperdays finals at Texas World Speedway a couple years ago. The red/stripes car behind was Jeff Snell and the solid red car was my instructor who was the owner of the old Stock II class - Jon Scott.

Here's a pic of Chuck and I.

I give this about 10 minutes before he posts the picture where he was in front.

 

[Chuck 98 RT/10]

Chuck's right, that's not him, that picture was taken in the white run group.

LOL You are such an ***.